All my hard work has paid off - they're going to jail.
Huzzah! :mrgreen:
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All my hard work has paid off - they're going to jail.
Huzzah! :mrgreen:
They're going to jail? Only if they get caught and fined and judged guilty.
I guess we'll be seeing lots of nasty stuff about this women thats taking them to court then... Fair Game rules 'n' all that.
I was being fatuous... but if an organisation ever deserved to be put in the slammer, they'd be high on the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by mediaboy
Sharing a cell with the Vatican? Always such hatred of scientology, but it's no less valid than christianity or islam.
Difference being that christianity/islam dont advertise the fact that they nick all your money off of you.
And the victimisation of those that speak against it isn't so high profile.
Scientology are also extremely aggressive, something which Christianity got over and Islam got over in modern society (of course, there's the extremists of both sides, but I'm sure there's extremist scientologists) mostly.
And christianity/Islam are more established, and also they've been around longer. Validity comes with age... and also with numbers of believers.
This is what they actually belive:mrgreen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecZexlEWcHw
France doing something sensible. I'm in shock tbh :P
:laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by mediaboy
The French are doing something right?! How comes we're not doing it?Quote:
France refuses to recognise Scientology as a religion, categorising it as a purely commercial operation and keeping it under surveillance.
Oh and,
:lol:Quote:
Validity comes with age... and also with numbers of believers.
:P
I wasn't being entirely serious...
But I do have a point.
We don't pick on Christianity because it's been around too long. I just tend to forget about it to be totally honest. We don't pick on Islam because it'd be racist. That leaves Scientology to be beaten up, picked on, ripped to shreds by the press etc.
We also have a tendency to forget about the fatal flaws in religions like Christianity, or at least - not mention them regulary... but this isn't the thread to go on about it in... something which I'm sure subconsciously comes from your viewing it as a religion.
Correct me if I'm totally wrong. It's entirely probable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mediaboy
But this is the point. We shouldn't pick on Christianity or any religion. Just because Scientology hasn't been around for very long doesn't give us the right to pick on it. We should not descriminate between religions.
No religion should be tax exempt.
Lets see,
Yup, looks like a religion to me. What's the problem?Code:Church of Scientology Catholic Church
x x Claims to know the origins of man.
x x Dupes its followers into believing an absurd doctrine.
x x Cons its followers into 'donating' silly loads of cash, using the aforementioned doctrine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeePee
Of corse we can pick on scientology, have you read what they belive?
And Hubbord himself said scientology is not a religion, as well as saying on a number of occasions that 'if you want to make money start a religion'.
Some countries have them officially recognised as a financial organisation, as it's run like a pyrimid scheme. You get paid for everyone you encourage to join.
There a bunch of money grabbing psycos, (thats me being polite:))
The problem with scientology is that unlike most religions, you are forced to pay large sums of money for "knowledge" - it's basically equivalent to olden day people paying to get into heaven.
Christianity, Islam, et al may preach nonsense, but they're not inherently in it for the money (at least in their doctrine, information is free).
I've read what they believe and it's no less plausible than islam, hinduism or christianity. Many people are cultured into accepting other religions, but if you read what they actually believe....
The other religions are entirely in it for the money. It may seem to be free to outsiders, but the concept of 'Tithes' is still very much alive. Religions have always been in it either for money or, even worse, power.
what you've read is pirated - literally, they have sued (and continue to sue) people for spreading scientologist beliefsQuote:
Originally Posted by TeePee
you're only permitted to know what the cult is about after 5-6 figures of donations
scientology is NOT a religion. it's a scam based on brainwashing
And that differs from the other religions, how?Quote:
Originally Posted by directhex
Other religions dress it up better.
Scientology just haven't managed to hide themselves that well in the modern society.
Is Scientology 'officially' recognised as a religion?Quote:
Originally Posted by TeePee
Just noticed TeePee's comment about Tithes..
I've been going to church at least once a week for the last 10 years or so of my life. I've never heard of tithes. I've never seen anyone pay Tithes.
Tithes are dead.. at least in the anglican church.
I have no idea about the Catholics.. I'm not a Catholics.
TooNice - Universal Declaration of Human Rights, AND the American thingy... the one they steal in National Treasure. Scientology started in American under American rules I thought. I don't know though, I'm trying desperately to remember a lesson I had on "Cult or Religion" about 2 years ago.
no. not in this country or several othersQuote:
Originally Posted by TooNice
you can ask a muslim or a christian what they believe without needing to pay them £16k starter fee?Quote:
Originally Posted by aidanjt
You can get most religious texts for under a tenner in waterstones. I'm an atheist, I believe God is a creation of mankind. Not the other way around, but I don't have any problem with people believing whatever they want(aliens or beardy father figures, whatever).Quote:
Originally Posted by aidanjt
I do have a massive problem with vulnerable people being conned out of thousands of pounds for some 'secret knowledge' and subsequently being persecuted when they come to believe that it's bull.
l ron hubbard 's books were crap and but this guy is really good and making money from the grave... other than that i think scientology is a bunch of nonsense and i would dare them to open a branch in china. lets see how they fare. try defrauding crazy chinaman "they kill you!!"
They just have the fee spread over a larger populace.Quote:
Originally Posted by directhex
There is a VERY big difference between scientology and other "mainstream" religions.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeePee
I'm an atheist, so all of it is bunk as far as i can be bothered.
If you go into a church, they won't stop you from reading the bible for free, hell, you can buy your own copy for under £3. Scientology won't let you do that - oh no - if you want to find out what happened to us a trillion, trillion years ago in the great volcano where we were all murdered, you have to pay big bucks.
This isn't about plausability (although the fact remains that El Hubbardo was a pitifully bad science fiction writer, and oh wait.. their scriptures read like a bad space opera) or whether it deserves to be a religion or not, the fact is that they extort their members in a way that is no better than a pyramid scheme.
How exactly do the other religions do it for the money? Most of those religions are about helping those in need (at least they claim to) "love thy neighbour" and so forth. Most religions don't have a history of raping their followers (yes, we all know about priests, but at least they claim that the children consent :P).
Regardless of what the back story is and whether it's truth or lies, the message behind most religions is the same - "be nice and don't hurt each other". Scientology is almost the exact opposite.
If you look into it there are actually very few countries that concider it to be a religion. Most countries see it as a money making scheme similar to the pyramid schemes. And aswell as France Germany has also at least looked into banning it.
I'm an atheist but have been to church a few times, and never had to pay. I certainly wouldn't expect to have to pay for 'audits' and hand over a percentage of my pay just to learn what the religion is about. Those who've tried to get out of scientology do not paint a pretty picture as to what it's actually like and how they've been treated.
scientology wouldn't have been criticized as much if it was in the 16th century..
Yeah but neither was murdering people for their beliefs and selling off your female relatives, but hey if you really want a tast of the 16th century I'll happily cover your street in faeces and ask the hospital to treat you with leeches and a hacksaw.Quote:
Originally Posted by a1210
Criticism would've been the least of of their worries in less tolerant times as they probably would've been persecuted by more established religions. Now, they get to sue those who criticise them.
Edit: I think I am on the same page as chuckskull, I pretty much agree what you've said in post #23.
Yes, the concept of tithing is very much alive in Christianity but the difference is that it is purely voluntary. How much you tithe and indeed whether you tithe at all is a matter for yourself and no-one else and has absolutely no bearing on your membership of the church or anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeePee
The quality and scope of the teaching you recieve if you tithe is exactly the same as if you don't. People tithe (or contribute to the churches finances) because they want to, because they value what they get from the church and want to help it do it's work. They don't do it to get on the fast track to heaven.
Scientology is not a religion - it's a cult, and should not be discussed as a religion. The problem with Scientology is not it's doctrine of beliefs but the way it operates like some sort of crime syndicate.
There is also the 'Free Zone' a breakaway part of the church with the beliefs but not the control or the fees. It's much smaller than the COS of course, but it shows you don't have to pay to believe.
Think of it as similar to christianity in history, where tithes were compulsory in the Catholic church, and absolution of sin would be granted for an additional donation. But of course you could break away from the very dominant catholicism, and face a bit of persecution, but save money.
Scientology is a very young religion. You can imagine a future where, just as with christiaity there are many different sects operating, some charging money to belong and some not.
Christianity is a messianic jewish cult.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeePee
I find it baffling that you can compare COS with other religions. Never has anybody been charged to be part of christianity. And you could at least go to church and learn about christianity or the catholic church for free.
The day scientology is recognised as a religion in the UK will be a very sad day indeed. I would hope more to see the practice banned along with pyrimid schemes that also ripped vunrable people off.
Sure they have. And they still are. There are still churches with membership fees, and tithes haven't always been voluntary. Over time, the christian churches have mostly moved towards taking donations as income from a large number of customers, while scientology, with fewer customers has to charge them a lot more. It's just an economy of scale!
Churches with membership fees?Quote:
Originally Posted by TeePee
Not in the UK, you can walk into any church on a sunday and not expect to pay. And they'll tell you about religion too.
If you want to be a member of a religous socioty/group, thats different, but going to church and learning the religion in a christian or catholic church is never charged for. (in the UK at least)
In the UK? maybe that's true. It isn't here. And it certainly hasn't always been true. The benefit christianity has is that they have some many thousands of customers that they can make the payments voluntary or small. The Vatican, for example, will ask for £1 to visit. It's voluntary, but how many people don't pay? The CoS, being a smaller business, has to charge more and make it compulsory.
You can also consider the business practises. The catholic church has it's inquisition, so scientology has it's 'fair game'. It's all an equally discusting, brutal, cut-throat business. It's unfair to pick on the CoS as they have only just started. In real terms they are being far more sucessful than christianity. How many followers did christianity have in 50AD? It took them 300 years to really get started.
CoS and christianity are equally bad businesses who prey on the gullible and provide moral security to the weak at a price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeePee
Some of the gospels wern't even writen then, and how many are staying with scientology as they are too scared to get out?
I think it's exreamly appropriate though that you compare scientology with that of the spanish inquisition that was over hundreds of years ago. Catholics arn't behaving like that now where as the COS is acting in a discraceful way still.
Sure. But let's have the CoS declared the religion of the western world, and have a 5% income tax paid to them, wait 1000 years, and see how they act then. I'm sure they'd show similar benevolence in their success.
Scientology is a new religion, and should be compared to other religions in their infancy. They suffer the same accusations of cultism as christianity did, and behave with the same aggrresion as chrisitianty in it's formative years. We shouldn't single it out for it's behavior but treat all religions with the same contempt.
Scientology is NOT a religion, Hubbord himself said it's not before the hole tax thing. It's still not recognised as a religion where i'm from so untill then, there 'nutters'. And ancient religions didn't act the way they did as they were religions starting out it's because they started thousands of years ago and thats how people acted. People wern't acting in a civilised way before religions so why would they have started to as they joined a new upcoming religion?Quote:
Originally Posted by TeePee
And again since when has western churches asked for a % of your income, or told you you must pay to become a member and pay again to learn just what the religion is all about.
And how many other religions were started by someone saying thats 'the way to make money' and this 'isn't a religion'?
One example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax
Recognition by some governments as a religion doesn't change anything. They're all nutters. Just because the UK recognises one religion doesn't give it validity over the others.
freezoners are officially excommunicated - contact with them is forbidden, and taking any action you feel like against them is condonedQuote:
Originally Posted by TeePee
if there were a common set of beliefs, wouldn't those beliefs count for something? an evangelical and a greek orthodox can agree on the idea of jesus - a freezoner and scientologist aren't even allowed to talk
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeePee
It's not just the fact that the 'religion' isn't recognised as a religion thats the biggest issue. It's the fact that many countries recognise it as an agressive business making venture which needs looking into (or in some cases banning). When many are saying the 'religion' is sold like a pyrimid scheme which have been banned in many contries.
And when the creator of scientology himself said it's not a religion, what more do you need?
The church tax is actually still run through the state and is not pulled out of your pockets at the church, but is a miniscule amount through income tax. It's also only the recognised churches of each country and those churches do actually try to do some good in the community. What good do scientologists do?
Scientology is a business, pure and simple. Rips people off and treats them like crap if they try to leave.
Should be banned everywhere.
It's miniscule amount from each of a lot of people (although, 1% of a £20K income is £200, which isn't exactly miniscule), but it's hardly 'never being charged by chrisitinity'. All religions are agresive money making busineses. Christianity has just found that taking a little from a lot of people works better for them. At least, L Ron actually existed.
All religions should be banned.
do explain! im a muslim. Whats it gotta do with u and why should my beliefs be banned?Quote:
Originally Posted by TeePee
You can believe whatever you like, but religions encorage intolerance and ignorance, and indoctrinate children in a manner which is detrimental to humanity and progress.
This subject has been argued repeatedly on this forum, and I believe the 'muslin ghettoisation' thread is still open, so please read through it, and continue that thread if you desire.
Said in many, many religion threads.
Faith = good
Religion = bad
Religion likes to try and convince the faithful they're one and the same, but they really aren't. More often than not Religion is the exploitation of faith. God if he exists(hey I've been wrong before) doesn't need a middle-man.
Back in those days it was a very dangerous move to try to get out of the RC church. Usually fatal. Where I live some people still spit when someone mentions the RC church, after most of them were wiped out for 'heresy' hundreds of years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy3536
<edit>That was about money too. The RC church launched the Albigensian Crusade to wipe out Cathqrism, but mainly to steal their land</edit>
Does anyone else think it's cute how there Scientology ads are popping up next to the quick reply box?
it's not for me - any chance of a screen grab, i'd be interested in seeing a scientology advert as I'm feeling pretty lost that the moment...Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucelles
Well, of course now it's stopped.Quote:
Originally Posted by M0nkeyb0Y
Actually, try page 3. I can't do you a screen grab as I still don't have full access in the office. I am new at the Banque de France.
Didn't sound like it from your 'All religions should be banned' comment.. which ironically didn't sound particularly tolerant either. You are also ignoring that some people join various religions of their own free will as adults.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeePee
For the sake of discussions, I don't mind people comparing religions in their infancy - that's assuming people have factual information as to how each religions started off. But every religions has to keep up with what's generally acceptable in society. Even if Christianity had behaved in the same manner at Scientology at the beginning, were accepted as such, it doesn't mean we should accept it now. We can't undo the past, there is no practical (humane) way to 'ban' religion, but we can at least prevent new mistakes being made and ensure that no religions cross a line deemed acceptable by society as it currently exists (maybe one day, that would mean banning religion altogether - but personally, I doubt it will happen until humanity solved all mysteries - or some anti-religious dictator manage take over the world and impose his view) [continued...]Quote:
Originally Posted by TeePee
[...continued] We must recognise between what's dangerous and what's not (at a minimum). A religion that preach that the sky is red is nonsense, but is unlikely to negatively impact most people's life, and most can go on with their productive lives believing the sky is red (as long as their career choice is not affected by the colour of the sky). A religion that preaches that twins are evil and should be aborted or abandoned at birth on the other hand will clearly negatively impact society, and something will need to be done about to prevent it. And that's why I think recognition and a certain level of control by the government (according to the 'general population's will') is important. Granted, the line I've drawn in this example is just my own - it may well be that most people will not accept the existence of a religion that preaches that the sky is red. But I do think that many, even amongst atheists, will acknowledge that some beliefs can be more damaging than others hence they do not deserve the same content. However, you seem to have such a one sided view of religions that you can't acknowledge that there are different shades of grey.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeePee
All religion is dangerous, at least cults are restrained to a few thousand nutjobs. A billion nutjobs is harder to put up with.
I could easily put up a billion who believe that the earth is flat, and prefer them over a 'few thousand' who believe that happiness comes from strapping explosives to themselves and detonating it in as big of a crowd as they can. What some of you seem to be implying, is that if the belief can be proven/seem irrational, then it must be dangerous.
I have a hard enough time worrying that the American presidential campaign revolves around personalities and religion without the additional worry that a Scientologist will get elected. The current loony was dreadful, but imagine one who believes all the Xenu crap.
i think it might differ with country. because i cannot get that advert however many times i change page or refresh :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucelles