Re: F22 Vs F35 - what are the key differences
As I thought most of the losses during the first Gulf War was down to AAA and short range SAMs. Out of 14 aircraft shot down only three were down to long range SAMs. Seems consistent with many other conflicts.The Iraqi air force had 42 aircraft shot down,nearly 140 fleeing to Iran and many other were destroyed on the ground. For an air force of 600+ aircraft it was a very poor showing and TBH versus modern fighters like the F15 was no surprise. It also shows how superior the aircraft and training of the coalition forces were in air to air and air to ground combat operations. Of course the Iraqi Navy and Army were routed in almost all of the encounters with coalition forces.
Re: F22 Vs F35 - what are the key differences
I heard a rumour that the OV-10 was going to go back into production. It makes sense really. There's no need for fancy stealth avionics(!) when the typical adversary is using WWII technology.
The OV-10 also happens to be one of very few airplanes I'd actually kill to fly.
Re: F22 Vs F35 - what are the key differences
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TeePee
I heard a rumour that the OV-10 was going to go back into production. It makes sense really. There's no need for fancy stealth avionics(!) when the typical adversary is using WWII technology.
The OV-10 also happens to be one of very few airplanes I'd actually kill to fly.
More than a rumor, not quite a reality just yet though. OV-10(X) Product card (right click > rotate clockwise unless you want a crick in your neck).
If it can loiter for 6 hours at more than a stones throw from the runway with that 30mm gun then I think it could be a godsend in Afghanistan and alike.
Re: F22 Vs F35 - what are the key differences
Whoa, you guys know a LOT about jets. I am beyond impressed!
Re: F22 Vs F35 - what are the key differences
The reason the modern war is dangerous for our forses is because the Iraqies use a great tactics, caled partisan war.
During the day they pretend to be normal civilians, then during the night (or other quiyet times) they "find" a burried AK pop out from no where and shoot at allied forces, then hide back again to normal civilians. the allied forces cant do anything about it. If they fire back, iraqies film it and post it on tv saying look allies fire at civilians etc
Re: F22 Vs F35 - what are the key differences
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Originally Posted by
Georgy291
since when are military ever trying to save cash?
and the only reason there were any F-15s ever shot down by a SAM was because it never went up against a desent one. People seem to forget that what saddam had was what russians left behind after their afghan war. you know old 70s stuff, compare that with natos latest updated fighters.
errrr Saddam had left over weapons from Afghanistan? How bad is your geography???
And coalition forces in teh the first Gulf War did not have AMRAAM missiles, it was not inservice at that time.
Saddam's airforce and SAM defences were one of the best in the world (outside NATO and the USSR) in 1990.
Re: F22 Vs F35 - what are the key differences
Quote:
Originally Posted by
YorkieBen
errrr Saddam had left over weapons from Afghanistan? How bad is your geography???
And coalition forces in teh the first Gulf War did not have AMRAAM missiles, it was not inservice at that time.
Saddam's airforce and SAM defences were one of the best in the world (outside NATO and the USSR) in 1990.
I think Georgy291 was making the point that the tech was similar and upto a point I agree. Also he was quire right too in stating that coalition forces were up against tech which was ten years out of date when compared to what the coalition had which is massive. You fail to grasp how much an improvement the F15 and F16 were with regards to electronics like radar. The Mig29 and Su27 in the 1980s had inferior radars and also Adolf Tolkachev leaked key details about the design of the R-23, R-24, R-33, R-27,R-60 and S-300 missile systems and the radars of the MiG-29, MiG-31, and Su-27 in 1985. It was so bad that the Russians had redesign the parts of the radar in the Mig31 which was the best airborne system they had and they had to do the same with the other systems too.
Also actually the AMRAAM was rushed into service during the First Gulf War and I remember Time and Newsweek saying so during the war. Also the Iraqis only had one or two relatively primitive AWACs too. Of course the USAF had plenty of E3s and used prototype E8 jstars too which meant they had superior reconnaissance assets too . Also the F15 and F16 had far superior radars to to what the Iraqi F1s,Mig29s and Mig25s had. During the Iran-Iraq war the Iraqi air force had a hard time keeping against Iranian F4s and F5s let alone F15s and F16s. Also when they realised that their fighters were being illuminated by the AWG9 found on Iranian F14s they usually elected to run away.
The Iraqis were again totally overwhelmed in both tech and training and like I said before the SA2,SA3 and SA6 had been faced before in the 1970s by the Israelis. Of course the US had faced both the SA2 and SA3 during the Vietnam war. Do you really think that the US would not have developed effective countermeasures aginst such SAMs?? They also had dedicated jamming aircraft too and numerous ELINT and SIGINT assets too. The US deployed their full might as they certainly did not want another Vietnam happening. The USAF used their F117 and AH64 to take out key parts of the Iraqi air defence and C3I networks in the very earliest parts of the war. This is why the coalition air forces did not see Vietnam era losses luckily.
Re: F22 Vs F35 - what are the key differences
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Georgy291
since when are military ever trying to save cash?
Today, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8162106.stm Looks like Obama's, just taking the F-22's the old administration already paid for and ceasing production, then spending the money($1.75bn) budgeted for the next order of fighters on the F-35 program and increasing medical care for returning vet's according to the beeb.
Re: F22 Vs F35 - what are the key differences
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CAT-THE-FIFTH
Out of 14 aircraft shot down only three were down to long range SAMs.
out of 14 US losses. There were iirc ~40 coalition losses & approx. 1/4 were from radar guided SAMs (many of which of unknown type).
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Of course the US had faced both the SA2 and SA3 during the Vietnam war. Do you really think that the US would not have developed effective countermeasures aginst such SAMs??
which is precisely why it seems so odd that the 1 F-15 loss to a SAM was by an SA-2 ...
Re: F22 Vs F35 - what are the key differences
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TeePee
I heard a rumour that the OV-10 was going to go back into production. It makes sense really. There's no need for fancy stealth avionics(!) when the typical adversary is using WWII technology.
The US is also experimenting with some Super Tucanos for counter insurgency work.
Re: F22 Vs F35 - what are the key differences
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BUFF
which is precisely why it seems so odd that the 1 F-15 loss to a SAM was by an SA-2 ...
No countermeasure is 100%, usually nowhere near. Also the SA-2 is command guided which means there is a human element involved and while old is a solid system(it shot down a U2 over Russia in the 60's) that's been continually updated by various nations. It's the AK of SAM's, old but, cheap, widely available and generally reliable.
My guess would be either his countermeasures failed as it was one of the few more modernised SA2's they had or it was a good operator. Might even of been plain old bad luck.
Re: F22 Vs F35 - what are the key differences
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chuckskull
Also the SA-2 is
command guided which means there is a human element involved and while old is a solid system(it shot down a U2 over Russia in the 60's) that's been continually updated by various nations.
afaik it happened at night so it seems unlikely that optical guidance was used (unless they had added some kind of thermal sight) but more likely that guidance was slaved to the radar .
You can't really compare the U-2 incident to an F-15 - supposedly the U-2 had engine problems, was below it's normal operational altitude & was virtually at stalling speed so not exactly in the best of positions to undertake evasive action. An F-15 is far more powerful, manoeuvrable & has countermeasures.
Plus the SA-2 is supposedly quite visible - I guess that somebody got lucky/unlucky.
Re: F22 Vs F35 - what are the key differences
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BUFF
afaik it happened at night so it seems unlikely that optical guidance was used (unless they had added some kind of thermal sight) but more likely that guidance was slaved to the radar .
You can't really compare the U-2 incident to an F-15 - supposedly the U-2 had engine problems, was below it's normal operational altitude & was virtually at stalling speed so not exactly in the best of positions to undertake evasive action. An F-15 is far more powerful, manoeuvrable & has countermeasures.
Plus the SA-2 is supposedly quite visible - I guess that somebody got lucky/unlucky.
The addition of a thermal sight or another tracking/guidance system is quite possible, according to wiki there are so many different versions of the missile it's impossible to keep track, there are versions with passive guidance too. You're right though it's a highly visible system when deployed, the missile itself is 10metres long.
I've heard so many different theories about the U-2 incident it's not funny. I always put it down to conspiracy theorists and the Americans not wanting to admit the soviets could shoot down a fully functioning one, personally. Guess we'll never know, same goes for the F-15 I guess. No military wants to tell the world exactly it lost a fight or in this case plane for obvious reasons, so we're left to speculate.
Re: F22 Vs F35 - what are the key differences
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Georgy291
since when are military ever trying to save cash?
I heard a disturbing rumour at work today; that the MOD had messed up the books and we're now £1.4bil down! :rolleyes: So probably no pay rise for me next year. :(
Personally, I'd get rid of half the GR4's. They've only just got into Afghan, but the Harrier force coped (or sorts) with a lot less aircraft, and we don't really seem to be using them for anything else.