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Thread: Electrocuted by Earth?

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    Senior Member AD-15's Avatar
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    Electrocuted by Earth?

    hello,

    I'm currently in Amman, and recently purchased an electrical adaptor (the type with multiple sockets), of this type:



    There seems to be no standard system here, there are all kind of plugs. I chose this type of "long" adaptor (no idea what they're called) as I have some single adaptors which can take the standard UK 3-pin type and plug into the Schuko type, and not lose the earth connection. Also, there are a lot of appliances here (fireplaces for example) that fit directly into this type of socket. And virtually any two prong plug will fit too.

    There are loads of other types too, but this is the only way I can maintain an earth connection to all the appliances that need it.

    I assumed everything was safe, until today I accidentally touched one of the springy type things on the side of the socket. (This is what connects to Earth.) I immediately got a painful shock.

    I don't think there's any damage, although my arm is a tiny bit sore. However, I'm more concerned about how I got a shock from touching the Earth connector?

    Is there likely to be some sort of short in the adaptor? But if this was the case, wouldn't it trip the circuit breaker?
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    Get in the van. Fraz's Avatar
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    Re: Electrocuted by Earth?

    That's pretty weird + dodgy!

    I suppose if:

    a) Earth is not actually attached to anything - least of all actual ground.

    b) There is a short between live and "ground"

    Then effectively there is no reason for the circuit-breaker/fuses to trip/blow, because until you touch "ground" no current would be flowing. Basically you become both the load and the connection to ground! Awesome huh?

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    The late but legendary peterb - Onward and Upward peterb's Avatar
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    Re: Electrocuted by Earth?

    Without looking, I would say that the socket has been incorrectly wired!

    Technically, that looks like a shuko socket - and schuko plug. The plugs 9and sockeyts used in france and Belgium are variations of the Schuko plug (CEE 7/5) with the cenrtral earth pin in the socket, and a hybrid version (CEE 7/7) which fits both the Schuko standard and the French variation.

    However that doesn't help you - as I say, I'd suspect the some numpty has mis-wired the socket. As for the RCCB - who knows.... And without being flippant, it is difficult to comment without inspecting the wiring - just be careful!

    Edit - Just seen Fraz's comment - depending on the type of RCCB installed, they don't actually need an electrical ground connection as they work on the imbalance in current between the two main conductors - so if you provide a leakage path to earth, there will be an imbalance that will trip the RCCB. However that current may not be sufficient to blow a fuse (if no RCCB is fitted).
    Last edited by peterb; 11-08-2009 at 02:25 PM.
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    Re: Electrocuted by Earth?



    You've not got wet hands from playing with watercooling have you?

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    Re: Electrocuted by Earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    Edit - Just seen Fraz's comment - depending on the type of RCCB installed, they don't actually need an electrical ground connection as they work on the imbalance in current between the two main conductors - so if you provide a leakage path to earth, there will be an imbalance that will trip the RCCB. However that current may not be sufficient to blow a fuse (if no RCCB is fitted).
    Interesting... I've never bothered to get around to understanding exactly what Residual Current Devices do, although I knew they were cleverer than your average dumb fuse.

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    Re: Electrocuted by Earth?

    An RCD/RCCB detects if there is a current flow between live and neutral, a fuse protects against over current in a circuit. The switches in a consumer unit are not in general RCDs they are fast, resettable fuses, which is why they blow when a light bulb dies as this cases a spike on the supply. Slower fuses don't do that, as was common with wire ones, however people tended to replace the fuse with a nail rather than get rid of faulty devices.

    Like other posters I think its badly wired, if its just a hotel your going to have to put up with it. If its a flat/house your be in for some time, go out and get a circuit tester, these are plug in devices and will tell you if things are wired wrong, they are very cheap (about 10 quid).

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    Senior Member AD-15's Avatar
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    Re: Electrocuted by Earth?

    I had a feeling you'd be the first to reply to this Fraz.

    I did take a look, and it does seem to be what was suspected.



    If you look at the Earth prong type things, they are all supposed to be pointing upwards, straight. They are kept from touching the metal plate (which connects to the terminals) by those tall plastic posts I believe. But if you look at the one on the left, it's been bent downwards, and although it's difficult to see in my rubbish photo, it's actually touching the metal plate on the side. So it seems the whole earthing assembly was electrified, which is why when I touched the one on the right, I got shocked. I think so anyway, I'm not expert with these things, as you can tell.

    What was more disturbing is the fact that as soon as a I (gently) removed the cover, out came the live wire. you can see the little screw on the pin hasn't been screwed in all the way, so the wire was loose.

    As for the Earth, does it look like it's properly connected? Maybe the dodgy soldering job is preventing a good connection? I've only done a couple of soldering jobs in my whole life, but common sense would tell you that's a rubbish job, right? If it is properly done, then would that mean this flat hasn't even been built with an earthing connection?

    The rules and regulations are here in Jordan, it just looks like too many people can't be arsed to follow them (or there is 'money under the table').

    EDIT: sorry, I forgot to re-size them
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    Re: Electrocuted by Earth?

    I am some what worried there is any soldering, I was always taught never to solder AC mains, as the currents can be enough to unsolder the wires. As to how it is wired I am rather surprised there are 2 two reds on the left and 2 blacks on the right, making it impossible to tell live and neutral, which could well be wired the wrong way round however that lose wire is why you where getting earth shocks. In Uk coding the brown is the live, however I recon the other end of the cable is not wired right or the socket isn't and your brown is getting a neutral. Many things can work ok with an earth and live, however its very dangerous. This is because the neutral is infact something called a floating neutral and is made by averaging out all the phases in the substation which is why its not quite the same voltage as ground.

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    Get in the van. Fraz's Avatar
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    Re: Electrocuted by Earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by AD-15 View Post
    I had a feeling you'd be the first to reply to this Fraz.
    What can I say... I just love commenting on stuff I know nearly nothing about, just because I like to pretend I know everything

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    Senior Member AD-15's Avatar
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    Re: Electrocuted by Earth?

    Thanks again for your advice everyone.

    Sorry oolon, I missed your first post. It is indeed my home, not a hotel. Could you possibly link me to one of these circuit testers you mention? I'm not quite sure what you mean. I could get one from the UK and bring it the next time I come here on holiday.

    I too wasn't sure about the soldering for the same reason, but thinking about it, how else can the wires be attached?

    What can I say... I just love commenting on stuff I know nearly nothing about, just because I like to pretend I know everything
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    You've not got wet hands from playing with watercooling have you?
    Last edited by AD-15; 11-08-2009 at 04:18 PM.
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    Senior Member oolon's Avatar
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    Re: Electrocuted by Earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by AD-15 View Post
    Could you possibly link me to one of these circuit testers you mention?
    Sure no problem, this is what i had it mind you can get them from B&Q, the picture is linked to their web site if you need. My only concern is this is for 220-240V, and may not work on a 110V so you need to check the supply voltage first, however I am sure you can something like that there if needed. You just plug it in and if you get 3 lights everything is ok. It checks for No earth, L&N reverse, N Fault, L&E Reverse and L fault. I think its a useful tool for anyone to have at £11.48, of course its even cheaper if you can borrow one of a friend, which is what generally happens to mine!



    Quote Originally Posted by AD-15 View Post
    I too wasn't sure about the soldering for the same reason, but thinking about it, how else can the wires be attached?
    I think its common to solder 110V volt supplies as generally they are not ring mains, they are insted wired in a star configuration all going back to a central box, so the current on any one supply is less. This is why on supplies in the UK, everything is done with brass screwed jointers, which are great up to the point you over tighten on and the end of the screw falls off!

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    Re: Electrocuted by Earth?

    hello,

    Thanks mate.

    The supply voltage is indeed 220-240V.

    This is probably another one of my ridiculous ideas, but would it be possible to do the exact same with a multimeter of some sort? Use the voltmeter for example to check the potential difference between Earth and live (240V=Earth present), do the same for live and neutral (240V=no fault)?

    BTW, I think I've sussed out what the heck all the wires are for in the adaptor. It seems colour coding has been completely ignored, and that the black wires are simply the neutral/live wires from the connectors to the switch, and the red ones are what connects the switch to the mains.
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    Re: Electrocuted by Earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by AD-15 View Post
    This is probably another one of my ridiculous ideas, but would it be possible to do the exact same with a multimeter of some sort? Use the voltmeter for example to check the potential difference between Earth and live (240V=Earth present), do the same for live and neutral (240V=no fault)?
    Yes you could do it with a multimeter if you had a few diodes as well you could test all the functions, the advantage of the plug it is to quote the merecat simples, you can run round a complete house with in a few minutes. Personally I don't like plugging in my multimeter to the mains supply even though I know it will be just fine and i rated for such things. I but there again I have had a 4kV shock from a voltage bias power supply I was prototyping so I am a lot more careful now.

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    Re: Electrocuted by Earth?

    Ouch.

    They are very painful things aren't they? I've been shocked a couple of times before here in Amman.

    The reason I'm not sure about buying that tester is that it won't fit directly into the socket. It will have to go into one of those "Schuko" type adaptors, which will then have to go into another adaptor to make it fit into one of these sockets:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../94/L_plug.jpg

    A multimeter I believe will allow me just to shove the wires in anywhere.
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    Re: Electrocuted by Earth?

    hello,

    I went to the electrician today to tell him what happened. He explained to me that a lot of places here in Jordan don't have earthed systems. It's mostly "villas" (basically houses, most people here live in blocks of large flats) and other private proerties that get earthed. He knows me well, and knows I'm from the UK, and joked about how everything in the UK is very well done, but here it's different. He said that unfortunately I'll just have to "move with the country", as it's likely my building isn't earthed whatsoever (he was working on it when we moved in).

    If I find that there is indeed no earth connection, is there anything I can do? From what I understand, re-wiring to earth the house would be much easier than any other type of job, as it can be completely seperate from the rest of the building (whereas the live cables run through the whole building, and are connected to the grid etc...).

    Do you think it would be possible to have an electrician simply connect the "consumer box" to the ground somewhere?

    I think Fraz was correct in saying the adapter wasn't actually connected to Earth.
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    Re: Electrocuted by Earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by AD-15 View Post
    The reason I'm not sure about buying that tester is that it won't fit directly into the socket. It will have to go into one of those "Schuko" type adaptors, which will then have to go into another adaptor to make it fit into one of these sockets:
    I don't think you should worry to much about that, the adapters just change the shape of the pins nothing else. As soon as you have a "clean" setup you know the adapters are ok, every test will be perfect. Even better you will also know your adapters are ok.

    In affect connecting the consumer unit to ground is exactly what an earth is, however all the wires from it need to be write right too. An earth is done locally with a ground spike however it needs to be done properly as in a short circuit it needs to be able to take all the current to earth, and not just vaporize. If you think about it if the earth was at the substation all that current would have to flow back to there and might have to do it for multiple installations, needing a really big earth!

    It would be better to stick to using things that don't need earths! Things like laptops do not use the earth connection at all, its just metal things that are a problem as the metal frame in general is earthed. Stick with plastic where possible.
    Last edited by oolon; 11-08-2009 at 10:28 PM.

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