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Thread: Can somebody who speaks legalese lend me a moment of their time please...

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    HEXUS.Metal Knoxville's Avatar
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    Can somebody who speaks legalese lend me a moment of their time please...

    Now my next door neighbour has always been an arse about just about anything we do that generates any noise, particularly my guitar, I play through a five watt combo amp that's never played before 9am or after 9pm, never at more than a quarter of the volume of which it's capable and never for more than an hour, two at a push.

    He's been round to moan about both that and my stereo before and I've always said that if it's too loud to come round and tell me straight away and I'll do my best to be reasonable and either knock the volume down or cut it short, after his last trip (one of many as I'll go on to explain) I heard nothing from him for nearly twelve months so I assumed everything was peachy.

    Then a couple of weeks ago I'd been jamming with a friend for about an hour and he came round with the rage of ten men swearing at me, accusing me of being mental and generally calling me every name under the sun, I addressed him as calmly as I could telling him he should have come round earlier if it was too loud and asking why he hasn't come round previously because it was no louder than usual but he stormed off. I knocked the guitar playing on the head for the next few days to let him calm down even though as far as I'm concerned it's a perfectly reasonable volume and he said nothing further.

    Then this morning my parents recieved a letter from the council...

    Dear sir/madam,

    Clean Neighbourhoods and Environmental Act 2005
    Section 80 - Complaint of Alleged Noise Nuisance At:******

    I wish to inform you that I have recieved a complaint alleging to a nuisance from amplified sound at your address.

    It is usually beneficial if there is an oppurtunity to discuss the complaint before proceeding with any action.

    I would therefore ask you to contact me at the above address or telephone number so that the matter can be dealt with informally at this stage.

    Yours faithfully,

    W L Murray
    Technical Project Officer
    (Private Sector Housing)
    I had a quick google but most of what came back looks like greek to me and makes about as much sense. Can someone please break down the legal mumbo jumbo and explain to me what my rights are with regards to the complaint, what the person making the complaints rights are and what exactly constitutes a "nuisance from amplified sound"?

    As I said he's always been an arse about noise of any description, we've got two open fires and hence need to bring in coal/firewood every so often, he was soon round to complain about that going on late in the evening even though it was never any later than half nine/ten o'clock so we could keep them fuelled while we're asleep and it was never that noisy an activity imo. Before that the dog whining outside was "keeping his daughter awake" before she moved out despite the fact that I could barely hear her in my room that's an awful lot closer to our back garden obviously, he's even had a go about hoovering if its after eight or so at night and I'd hate to see my parents lumped with a fine because of this mouth breathing neanderthals reaction to an electric guitar.

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    Re: Can somebody who speaks legalese lend me a moment of their time please...

    Don't worry - no fines are not going to be handed out at this stage.
    Key word in the letter is "informally". At this stage they are looking to see how valid the complaint is.
    Get in touch with him and explain the situation as you have done here and invite the officer round to provide a demo of the sound levels so that he can make his own conclusions. He may even measure the volume from outside the house and advise if it is acceptable. The only way that I can see you getting any further action is if they obtain evidence of you exceeding an agreed volume level.
    If you respond promptly in a very friendly and helpful manner, you should hopefully find that it works in your favour.
    I would also suggest asking the officer if you should report your neighbour's threatening/abusive behaviour - to at least illustrate the nature of his antics.

    But most importantly of all - don't let "him next door" get to you!

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    Re: Can somebody who speaks legalese lend me a moment of their time please...

    Sorry no legalese here, I'd agree with darkghost here, although I'd not persue any "reporting your neighbour" at this stage.
    There may be good reasons he could be upperity, like he works very eairly morning shifts.
    Although form what you've said so far it sound more like he's a
    Ether way inquireing or starting anyform of complaint against him could easily trigger a "venditor" mentality and just make things worse.
    Although if he is a total then failing to have his noise complaint up held is going to piss him off as well and nothing short of you moving out would make him happy.

    One thing you could consider to help ease the situation is to only play in rooms on the far side of the house and make sure your amp is insulated from the floor so no vibrations are carrying through the floor and joists.

    But most importantly of all - don't let "him next door" get to you!

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    Re: Can somebody who speaks legalese lend me a moment of their time please...

    Well this is worth a read http://www.environmental-protection....ise-pollution/

    Basically you're at Stage 2 at the moment, he's allegedly tried to sort things out and it's important to note, you've taken reasonable steps by limiting your noisy activities. If you can, document any interaction you've had and any steps you've taken. It's useful for the next stage.

    Also, one thing you can try is to alter the bass on your guitar and stero, as it's often that which pentrates walls, far more so than the higher registers. For a more extreme measure, consider reinsulating the adjoining walls if you can, it'll help your heating bills and cut down the amount of noise being transmitted.

    (\___/) (\___/) (\___/) (\___/) (\___/) (\___/) (\___/)
    (='.'=) (='.'=) (='.'=) (='.'=) (='.'=) (='.'=) (='.'=)
    (")_(") (")_(") (")_(") (")_(") (")_(") (")_(") (")_(")


    This is bunny and friends. He is fed up waiting for everyone to help him out, and decided to help himself instead!

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    Re: Can somebody who speaks legalese lend me a moment of their time please...

    Aww c'mon, never mind about the legal stuff, you're upsetting this guy and his family - can't you be a bit more understanding? You have an amplified axe, a whining dog and hoover and you and your mate go off on one in your front room. How about you take the racket to a community centre or something? The guy has a right to enjoy his home in peace doesn't he?

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    Re: Can somebody who speaks legalese lend me a moment of their time please...

    Quote Originally Posted by santa claus View Post
    The guy has a right to enjoy his home in peace doesn't he?
    I agree... or get some proper soundproofing for your house. If he can hear you at all then it's too loud.

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    Re: Can somebody who speaks legalese lend me a moment of their time please...

    Quote Originally Posted by SiM View Post
    I agree... or get some proper soundproofing for your house. If he can hear you at all then it's too loud.


    I can hear my next door neighbour laugh and close her doors. It's just something that happens in a semi/terraced house.

    The guy sounds like a right moan, he can't expect you to tip toe around your house, I mean complaining about a hoover, it's only ever on for at most half an hour or so.

    Complain about his complaints disturbing your peace. Coming round and verbally assaulting you too, I'm not sure that is entirely legal.
    Last edited by educatedfool; 06-09-2009 at 02:35 AM.

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    Re: Can somebody who speaks legalese lend me a moment of their time please...

    Quote Originally Posted by SiM View Post
    I agree... or get some proper soundproofing for your house. If he can hear you at all then it's too loud.
    Whilst I can appreciate that excessive noise can really be a problem, I think that everyone has to accept that a certain amount of noise is inevitable when you have neighbours. Just because you can hear it doesn't mean it's too loud. Where do you draw the line? What's too loud? How much is too much? Well that varies from person to person (and what property you're in) but I know that some people are more sensitive to it than others. It also depends on the time and the noise that is being made IMO. If you want complete silence you need to move the to middle of nowhere so you don't have neighbours.

    Saying that, you certainly have to pick the right time/place to make noise. I often visit a flat where the people upstairs stomp around, shout and turn their stereo up to 11 at unreasonable hours (after 11pm for example). With it being a flat, there's no way to get away from that noise and I often get pretty annoyed (though I don't live there so it's not my place to say anything).

    As long as you're not rattling the window frames and you're keeping the noise to reasonable hours (i.e. 9am-9pm would be my guess) I would suggest that you have nothing at all to worry about legally. It's quite possible that they'll measure the noise from your neighbours house, but as long as you're keeping the volume to an acceptable level there's not much they/you can do. If you're still on speaking terms, you could get someone to play your guitar and go round to listen, though I suspect that what he considers unreasonable is completely different to what you consider unreasonable.

    Just make sure that you address the problem head on and talk to the housing officers whenever they ask for information. In my interpretation, that letter is just saying that someone has complained and they want to get your side of the story. If possible keep things amicable with you neighbours (though that doesn't sound likely from what you've said).

    I'm very lucky to have chilled out neighbours. We all realise that there HAS to be some give and take. Whether it's me playing my drums, or them having late night parties, we all just get along. Life's simply too short to worry about a bit of noise pollution.
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    Re: Can somebody who speaks legalese lend me a moment of their time please...

    Cheers guys

    Santa, SiM I see your point guys I really do but there's no way I'm hauling over a grands worth of gear to my local community centre to have it nicked/damaged and I'm certainly not going down to a rehearsal studio and paying twenty quid for a room every time I fancy playing for half an hour.

    Everyone has a right to enjoy some peace and quiet at home even the knuckle dragger I live next to but when you live in a semi/flat there has to be some give and take, I can hear his wife washing up in my dining room, his mower wakes me up at the crack of dawn every weekend when I've been out on the lash, his daughters bad hardcore music used to go on at all hours when she came home pilled out of her tree...I don't complain though because it's called living next door to someone.

    I bought a lower wattage amp (I went from 30 to 5 watts) and I play it at a volume that you can talk over as far as I'm concerned I've been more than reasonable, I even went out of my way to borrow an acoustic guitar recently. I've certainly been more reasonable than the people that live a few doors down who let their teenagers get drunk, lairy and loud in the back garden at all hours burning furniture and letting off fireworks, he won't complain about them though because he doesn't fancy having his tires slashed and his windows bricked in. It's not as if he works nights/early shifts they're both retired and imo at that age if you've got a bit of cash about you as they have and you want absolute silence as he obviously does you move down to Devon or something you don't stick around in a very urban area where noise pollution is bound to occur.

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    Re: Can somebody who speaks legalese lend me a moment of their time please...

    Completely agree with you Knox. I've recently moved into a terraced house. As you may know, I play bass, through a 750W Trace rig (2x10 & 1x18). This hasn't annoyed anybody to the left, right, or the woman that lives upstairs (but, to be fair, I'm not exactly cranking it to 11, I also have respect for my neigbours. Yet she came down to ask me to switch off the music I was playing through my 16W surround speakers in my lounge. It was the bass that did it, anything above, well, 0, permeates through pretty much everything.

    Now, if she was to (or any neigbour really), come and have a whinge about my bass playing, I would kindly explain that I've never played at an unsocial time, nor at an unsocial level, and, in the kindest way possible, to go swivel. As has been said, thats what happens when you live in terraced housing... you're gonna hear other people and things. Deal with it. She's got a massive great big Alsation she keeps in her 1 bed flat above me, and it goes pelting around the place when it hears her (or my) door going, but I wouldn't complain, cos its just one of those things.


    The cat crap in my front garden though is a completely different issue

    P.S. Santa, leave your Lapland log cabin and go live in terraced housing, then you may understand what you said is complete horse ****.
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    Re: Can somebody who speaks legalese lend me a moment of their time please...

    Knox - have you tried one of these ?

    http://www.zzounds.com/item--MDOBLACKBOX

    I used to have a lodger who was teaching himself the guitar , hearing the same few chords over and over again was starting to get on my wick , so he got himselves one of those and could play happily to his hearts content.
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    Re: Can somebody who speaks legalese lend me a moment of their time please...

    Quote Originally Posted by Knoxville View Post
    Cheers guys

    Santa, SiM I see your point guys I really do.....to occur.
    Ok Knox that's a pretty fair response and provides a bit more info about your position and the problems for you and your neighbour.

    My point though is not who might legally be "in the right"; it's the fact that an elderly guy and his family are suffering when they should be enjoying their time together. In my experience, it isn't noise as such that's the problem; as you say, urban life is full of it. The problem is a continuous and unreasonable level of noise and it is something you have to get an agreement with those affected.

    You seem a reasonable bloke. Older people are more sensitive to noise and even the pace of life. Give this guy some respect and I'm sure you'll work it out. Did you two ever actually tell each other calmly what bothers you? Might be an idea .

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDwarf View Post
    P.S. Santa, leave your Lapland log cabin and go live in terraced housing, then you may understand what you said is complete horse ****.
    No it's not. But thank you for your eloquence .

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    Re: Can somebody who speaks legalese lend me a moment of their time please...

    Quote Originally Posted by Moby-Dick View Post
    Knox - have you tried one of these ?

    http://www.zzounds.com/item--MDOBLACKBOX

    I used to have a lodger who was teaching himself the guitar , hearing the same few chords over and over again was starting to get on my wick , so he got himselves one of those and could play happily to his hearts content.
    I've got something very similar hooked up to my pc for recording, it's what I practice through the majority of the time but the sound quality doesn't compare with a proper valve amp so when I've written/learned something on that I'll crack the amp on for half an hour and run through it again.

    I've looked at wireless headphones but the cost to get a pair that'll sound as good as I'd want them to if I'm going to be using them regularly just isn't worth it to satisfy the chap next door when nobody else in my house or the house on the opposite side has a problem and even if I thought it was I couldn't afford them anyway.

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    Re: Can somebody who speaks legalese lend me a moment of their time please...

    This is a hard one, as it's easy to see both sides.

    Knox has a right to enjoy his playing, but his neighbour has a right to not have to "enjoy" it. I have some sympathy with the neighbour, as I've had similar issues in the past, especially with dogs barking. For instance, when my neighbour got two new puppies, a few years back. The ruddy things were fine while he or his wife were in the house, but the instant they went out, they started howling. And they howled, and howled and howled all damn day. As I was working largely at night at the time, and would get home at anything from 3AM to 9 or 10AM, wanting sleep, the last thing I wanted, day after day, was dogs howling incessantly from 8:30AM for 9 hours. My neighbour, of course, knew nothing of the problem because it only happened when neither of them were there. While I could have cheerfully strangled those bloody dogs, I did and said nothing ..... which is more than the bloke about three doors down did - he apparently read the riot act over it.


    Knox, it seems like you're being pretty reasonable, and that the other bloke has just snapped. He's probably been doing what I was doing over those dogs, he's complained to you, and didn't want to keep doing it, so he's grit his teeth, ignored and and slowly but surely got more and more angry, building up a head of steam. After his last tirade, he's thought "the hell with this, I've asked and asked and it still happens, so I'll make it official".

    Which is why I can see it both ways. Your music, to you, is pleasure, relaxation, fun. To him, it's probably torture, especially if all he wants is peace and quiet.

    And bear in mind, bass often carries through walls and floors, but the rest doesn't. So you can hear "music". He can probably just hear "thump, thump, thumpitty thump".

    So, personally, I certainly wouldn't want to say who I side with. I certainly wouldn't want to tell you you can't play your music, but if I were your neighbour, I might well be feeling exactly as he is. Whether I ever said anything to you would depend on how often, and how loud, the problem was.

    As for the legalese, well, not my area at all. I do know there are laws and powers (as per the link given earlier) but how they are enforced in practice, I don't know. I would guess that the council seek to do things by discussion if at all possible, and to go further than that, they'll need evidence. One question will be .... do they have any?

    And what evidence does your neighbour have? Lucio suggested you "document" what's happened. Your neighbour may have been doing that for the twelve months you heard nothing. He may have a list of dates, times and durations. If' he's bought himlself a sound meter, he may have noise readings to go with it.

    From what I remember of this type of issue, that's the kind of thing the council will want, and they may even have lent him the meter to get the readings.

    But in either event, you can't really ignore the council. All you can do, IMHO, is meet with them, listen to what they say, explain your side of it and, see where it goes. They may be hoping to diffuse this before it really gets serious, or they may already have the evidence they need to move forward, and this is them giving you the opportunity to back off before they take further action.

    Some posted earlier about different people having different ideas about "reasonable". I'd agree. It's very subjective. But council meter readings won't be. It's also true, IMHO, that what you here, in the room with the music, and the "thump thump" your neighbour hears will likely be different. Wombar's suggestion about getting a mate to play while you pop next door is a good one .... perhaps in the presence of the council officer ... then you might better appreciate what it sounds like on your neighbour's end of it.

    At the end of it all, though, you've got a reasonable right to pursue your hobby in your own home, and your neighbour has a right to a reasonable level of freedom from noise disturbance ... and the two are conflicting. BY far the best way to resolve this is to find a way to work together. Perhaps he's out specific nights and a club or something, and that could be arranged as when you usually play. though he might have to accept occasional spontaneous events. Perhaps there are times when it's more important to him to not be disturbed and those times could be avoided. Perhaps you could put the speakers (or the amp if speakers are integrated) on some kind of foam block that wouldn't change the volume much at your end but would reduce the bass transmission through the floors. Perhaps you could hang a heavy shield to reduce bass reverberating through walls?

    All I can suggest is, with the council, to assert your right to reasonable enjoyment of your hobby but to be entirely reasonable about how you do it. Explore any options you can think off, like those I've suggested or anything else. Demonstrate what you do, at your normal volumes, and let the council take readings if they wish .... bearing in mind that they may already have a series of readings, so keeping it artificially low to deceive them might not be a good move.

    One more thing. What the legalities of this are is one thing, but probably more important is what it might do to relations with neighbours. Bad blood with neighbours can make real, long-term problems. You said your parents received this letter. I presume it's their place. If so, it's not just you that will have to deal with neighbour problems, but them, and if they're the householders, they're probably going to be the ones getting the pointy end of any legal issues. What are their feelings about this, because self-evidently, that needs to be at the top of your priority list.

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    Re: Can somebody who speaks legalese lend me a moment of their time please...

    Moby, I've got something similar, plus the fact I can plug my guitar and bass into my PC and use my headphones, but sometimes you just want/need the response a real amp gives you.

    Santa, this guy isn't suffering, and Knox isn't being at all unreasonable with the noise he is creating. He's not doing it at unsocial times, nor for long periods of time. This guy obviously just wants a moan, and wants to enforce his rules and regulations at anyone that he feels he can.

    If you think some pathetic old bastard getting annoyed by an electric guitar is 'suffering', then what about all the other atrocities in the world eh?

    When it comes down to it, you can do what you damn well like during the working day, don't take the piss, and you can never go wrong.
    Last edited by BlackDwarf; 06-09-2009 at 04:58 PM.
    Diablo (Main PC): Corsair Air 540; Gigabyte Z77-D3H; i5 3570k @ 4.4Ghz; 16Gb Corsair Vengeance PC3-12000; 120Gb Samsung 840 EVO; EVGA 980 Ti Hybrid; 2x Dell U2414H; Windows 10 x64.
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  23. #16
    Senior Member Hicks12's Avatar
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    Re: Can somebody who speaks legalese lend me a moment of their time please...

    i dont generally have a problem in my terrace , we are the second one on the end and i hardly hear them. Next door i can hear them going to the bathroom(as in opening/closing door and sink) and we just ignore each other like my music and there motorbike(always revving it for like 10mins xD). The only one issue was that i could hear them ******* at night when i was trying to sleep , she seems to be quieter now!.
    Quote Originally Posted by snootyjim View Post
    Trust me, go into any local club and shout "I've got dual Nehalem Xeons" and all of the girls will practically collapse on the spot at the thought of your e-penis

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