has she claimed she withdrew this amount of cash from a cash point? (ATM) cos £3000+ is a heck of a lot to get from an ATM. don't most accounts have a daily limit well below this?
has she claimed she withdrew this amount of cash from a cash point? (ATM) cos £3000+ is a heck of a lot to get from an ATM. don't most accounts have a daily limit well below this?
Yeh, good point, given the fact that she can't repay £3,000 of owed money (it's hardly a huge sum of money), I don't think she will have access to a high end account that can withdraw that much. I doubt someone who has an account that can withdraw £3,000 in one hit will be desperate enough to risk a criminal record and jail time for a mere £3,000.
Therefore she must have hustled your mum.
No it is from the Credit Union and you can withdraw as much as you like. I think we only have Credit Unions in Ireland.
Home Entertainment =Epson TW9400, Denon AVRX6300H, Panasonic DPUB450EBK 4K Ultra HD Blu-Ray and Monitor Audio Silver RX 7.0, Monitor Audio CT265IDC(x4) Dolby Atmos and XTZ 12.17 Sub - (Config 7.1.4)
My System=Gigabyte X470 Aorus Gaming 7 Wi-Fi, AMD Ryzen 7 5800X3D, Patriot 32 GB DDR4 3200MHz, 1TB WD_Black SN770, 1TB Koxia nvme, MSI RTX4070Ti Gaming X TRIO, Enermax Supernova G6 850W, Lian LI Lancool 3, 2x QHD 27in Monitors. Denon AVR1700H & Wharfedale DX-2 5.1 Sound
Home Server 2/HTPC - Ryzen 5 3600, Asus Strix B450, 16GB Ram, EVGA GT1030 SC, 2x 2TB Cruscial SSD, Corsair TX550, Plex Server & Nvidia Shield Pro 4K
Diskstation/HTPC - Synology DS1821+ 16GB Ram - 10Gbe NIC with 45TB & Synology DS1821+ 8GB Ram - 10Gbe NIC with 14TB & Synology DS920+ 9TB
Portable=Microsoft Surface Pro 4, Huawei M5 10" & HP Omen 15 laptop
Are you kidding?? What about AIB, Bank of Ireland, Anglo-Irish Banks and all the other banks like the Royal Bank of Scotland operating in Ireland! The banking crisis hit Ireland hard too with AIB and Bank of Ireland shares worth less than 10% of what they were one and half years ago. Unless you live in a really remote part of Ireland like Achill or somewhere...
No i mean i think the credit union as an establishment is only in Ireland. I could be wrong. Of course we have other banks
Home Entertainment =Epson TW9400, Denon AVRX6300H, Panasonic DPUB450EBK 4K Ultra HD Blu-Ray and Monitor Audio Silver RX 7.0, Monitor Audio CT265IDC(x4) Dolby Atmos and XTZ 12.17 Sub - (Config 7.1.4)
My System=Gigabyte X470 Aorus Gaming 7 Wi-Fi, AMD Ryzen 7 5800X3D, Patriot 32 GB DDR4 3200MHz, 1TB WD_Black SN770, 1TB Koxia nvme, MSI RTX4070Ti Gaming X TRIO, Enermax Supernova G6 850W, Lian LI Lancool 3, 2x QHD 27in Monitors. Denon AVR1700H & Wharfedale DX-2 5.1 Sound
Home Server 2/HTPC - Ryzen 5 3600, Asus Strix B450, 16GB Ram, EVGA GT1030 SC, 2x 2TB Cruscial SSD, Corsair TX550, Plex Server & Nvidia Shield Pro 4K
Diskstation/HTPC - Synology DS1821+ 16GB Ram - 10Gbe NIC with 45TB & Synology DS1821+ 8GB Ram - 10Gbe NIC with 14TB & Synology DS920+ 9TB
Portable=Microsoft Surface Pro 4, Huawei M5 10" & HP Omen 15 laptop
Don't worry about not having any paper proof to back up this "trust fund", the court when you take it that far will see that your mum and this women and her friends had a verbal agreement which is seen in the eyes of the law is as legally binding as a written one.
/yay learned something from Common Law 1
Sorry to hear about this, I guess this was something for Christmas, crap time for something like this to happen.
It''s the point of credit unions. They're essentially a sort of localised way of avoiding banks and their commercial objectives. The idea is that you save when you can, and borrow when you need to. From what I remember, the idea is that they lend ONLY to members, and at interest rates that aren't exploitative, so you need to have demonstrated a track record to get loans. It keeps administration down, they're not financing the "casino" operations of banks or paying out shareholders dividends, etc. They're operated in the interests of the members. It's a kind-of a community thing. There are regulations, and they aren't entirely trivial to set up. but they are much less rigorously (as I understand it) regulated than full commercial banks, largely because they can be set up on a much smaller scale, both in terms of capitalisation and the type and scale of "loan" they offer.
And they're not just NI, Neon, they operate all over the place. They used to be quite common but had, as I understand it, somewhat fallen out of favour in recent years. But there's certainly been something ogf a resurgence in the last few years, and the failure of that "Christmas Club" company, whatever it was called, a year or two back encouraged it.
The irony is that I was going suggest that your Mum look out for a local credit union as an alternative to the "woman at work" scenario, as this type of saving is really what they're all about.
In theory, yes. But it's all about what you can prove.
The whole point if written agreements is that they're a considerable help in proving the existence of, and terms of, any verbal agreement.
Suppose I took you to small claims court over the £1 million pounds I lent you last year. You, of course, are going to deny I did. The court certainly aren't going to just take my word for it. Unfortunately.
Oh, and for "prove", I'm talking about the civil standard of 'balance of probability', not the 'beyond reasonable doubt' criminal standard.
Unfortunately, nice people have a habit of assuming other people are like them, and trusting them. And sometimes it bites. There's an old saying (well, and old one of mine anyway) that cynicism is realism borne of experience. The more you see this kind of reflection of human nature, the more cynical and the less trusting you become. Having seen human nature in operation too many times, I'm something of a cynic. I don't just assume the worst of everybody until they prove otherwise, but I sure have one eye on the possibility, and if offered a gift Trojan Horse, I always assume it's full of Greek soldiers until I've checked that it isn't. "Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes."
Sadly, in some ways, your Mum will be a bit more cynical after this than she was going in. It's not an especially attractive or happy-making character trait, which I know as I've got in in a good helping, but it does at least aid in self-protection.
I'd think it would go a long way towards establishing the "balance of probability" proof I mentioned, yes. I'd hate to second-guess a court, but I'd assume that that would be pretty persuasive. It might not establish individual balances, But I'd have thought it would be sufficient to establish a scheme was in place.
A comparison between what she actually withdrew and what she reported to the police might be interesting. If she had all the money, withdrew it all and then alleged it'd been nicked by a mugger, then it might be very hard to prove. If you're right, though, and she'd spent it, then that implies she either didn't report £3000 being nicked to police, in which case where is the money, or she did, in which case the police will perhaps want an explanation of why she said a lot more was nicked than she actually withdrew, if she withdrew anything.
But banks have a legal duty of confidentiality, and aren't likely to just hand over transaction details if a police officer walks in and asks nicely. My guess is they'll need a warrant, which'd require establishing grounds for wanting it. How hard or easy it'd be for them to get it, I've no idea ..... or even if they'd see it as high enough priority to much effort in. By cynical nature suggests that if the allegation is just that she ripped of the money, it'll be a lower priority than if she made false reports of a mugging to police.
It has to be at least a possibility that if your suspicions are reported to police they'll take it seriously enough to spend the time actively pursuing it.
As described, I'd certainly agree it's suggestive, but while that goes some way to raising suspicions, it isn't evidence. My guess would be that if she actually withdrew all the money, proving she wasn't mugged will be next to impossible if she's half sensible and thought her story through. So if she was spending the money, it may come down to whether she had savings herself already in the account.
Suppose she had £5k already in the account. She received another £3k over the year and spent £3k. One way of looking at it is that she was spending other people's money, but another is that she was spending her own, and that she now has £2k in the account and she took the other £3k out in cash ..... then got "mugged". If so, that £3k in cash will now be in a safe hiding place somewhere. Over the next few months, she has a couple of "lucky" lottery tickets and wins a few hundred. Maybe she "sells" something and raises a few hundred. It's easy enough to justify relatively small sums over a period if you're sensible and inventive.
So if she ripped off the money herself, it may come down to whether he did so because she had to having already spent it and therefore not got it to pay back, or whether she just decided to do it because she could.
However, [B]if[B] if she didn't have the money to withdraw, and if she reported having withdrawn £3k and didn't, then having it "mugged", and if the police can get whatever they need to get transaction and/or account details from the bank (or credit union, or whatever), then she's got some explaining to do.
So assuming you're right and the mugging didn't happen, and despite all the suggestive circumstances it still seems it's at least possible that she's telling the truth and it did, there's at least the possibility that she'll be held to account for it, if it's reported to the police.
Of course, unless what you, or your Mum and her friends, suspect to have happened is reported to police, they have no way of knowing this side of the story. If getting her held to account is now the agenda (and were it my Mum being ripped off, it would be for me) then it's got to be worth a try. The chances of success? Dunno.
Well, if she really was mugged, it could be that she was still in some sort of shock?
It could also be that she was embarrassed as hell, not quite sure what to say and so said nothing. Putting off nasty experiences until you can;t put them off any longer is a common enough human trait.
If she was genuinely mugged, then she may not be able to pay it back. And she may take the view that as she's a victim too, and was effectively doing the others a favour by doing all the leg work, why should she suffer again on top of having done the legwork and being mugged.
Suppose it was your Mum that had been collecting the money, and then been mugged? Isn't is possible that she'd put off having to tell the others, especially while she got over the initial shock of being mugged? And might you not be saying something like you "hope their is no animosity towards her"?
It all comes down to whether the mugging was real or not .... and it's not unknown for muggers to watch people coming out of banks, or maybe credit unions, and figure that there's a good chance, especially just before Christmas, that they've withdrawn money and so target them.
Presumably, this woman has some kind of bank book, or could get a statement from the credit union that would show the full £3k-£4k being withdrawn. I can't she why she couldn't either produce or get that kind of evidence, and without requiring police to get a court order or warrant or whatever, and I can't she why she wouldn't be willing to in the circumstances, IF the mugging is genuine. I mean, if it really happened, then she could prove she withdrew the money so why wouldn't she be willing to do so??
It might be worth asking her to do that before going to police.
neonplanet40 (06-12-2009)
Thoughts on insurance avenues?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)