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Thread: Is possession really nine tenths of the law?

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    HEXUS.social member Allen's Avatar
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    Question Is possession really nine tenths of the law?

    I think I heard somewhere that this phrase is actually incorrect and it's only 9 parts of the law or something, anyway that's beside the point.

    This is a bit of a complicated question and I can't go into full details for obvious reasons in case something is dodgy about it, but I'll do my best.

    Basically, someone I know has had something in their possession for about 15 years now. The item comes from a factory which was being torn down and the people tearing it down were throwing everything inside away. The person I know 'rescued' some wood (he's into woodwork in his spare time) that was classed as scrap and amongst this wood was the item.

    Now, the item is not really the point here so I won't go into what it is, although it is possible that it could be worth something as it could be classed as naval memorabilia from WWII. The problem lies in the fact that IF the person I know wants to get it valued, or even tries to sell it, and the question arises of how he came into possession of the item, where does he stand?

    Is recovering items from skips, bins or saving them from being scrapped illegal? Does the fact that he's had it for such long time and no-one appears to have questioned it's whereabouts mean that it could be considered legally his?

    I appreciate that this is a bit of a strange question, but I have literally no idea where to go to ask it. Thanks in advance.

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    Re: Is possession really nine tenths of the law?

    AFAIK if something has been thrown out (e.g left by or in a skip) then anyone can come along and take it as their own.

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    Re: Is possession really nine tenths of the law?

    Ah this is a little thing called "Provenance", which is providing you have the rightful owner a particular item (normally work of art). Without a clear line of ownership it can be difficult to sell an item for anything like the going rate. Items in a skip are not freely available to all (though normally most people don't care), I remember being asked by a scrappy if he could dumpster dive the skip outside the data center I was decommissioning, I told him ... sure more you take the less skips I will need, however the ownership was "mine" and that passed to the manager of the waste. (I am sure he would have done it when I back was turned anyway... it was nice he asked).

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    Re: Is possession really nine tenths of the law?

    Well I've heard of the term "Theft by finding" previously. I don't think it's as simple as that Fortune.

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    Re: Is possession really nine tenths of the law?

    What's the statute of limitations on theft?

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    ɯʎɔɐɹsɐʌʍ mycarsavw's Avatar
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    Re: Is possession really nine tenths of the law?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeePee View Post
    What's the statute of limitations on theft?
    Limitation Act 1980 | Part I | Section 4 - Special time limit in case of theft

    Bold emphasis is my own

    (1) The right of any person from whom a chattel is stolen to bring an action in respect of the theft shall not be subject to the time limits under sections 2 and 3(1) of this Act, but if his title to the chattel is extinguished under section 3(2) of this Act he may not bring an action in respect of a theft preceding the loss of his title, unless the theft in question preceded the conversion from which time began to run for the purposes of section 3(2).
    Read the whole thing by clicking any of the links above - if you really want to of course
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    Re: Is possession really nine tenths of the law?

    I'm guessing he could state that it was his parents or he was given it as a gift from someone.

    Even say he got it at a car booty for £5

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    Re: Is possession really nine tenths of the law?

    Quote Originally Posted by SammEl View Post
    I'm guessing he could state that it was his parents or he was given it as a gift from someone.

    Even say he got it at a car booty for £5
    yes you could probably get away with that unless it was really valuable, assuming the parents were dead and cannot back up the story or a cover for which car boot sale, when, what car the person had etc was good enough.

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    Senior[ish] Member Singh400's Avatar
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    Re: Is possession really nine tenths of the law?

    Considering he had, had it for 15 years. I don't think there will be much of a problem. A) it was thrown out, scrap basically. B) 15 years, if someone wanted it back why didn't they get it much earlier?

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    Re: Is possession really nine tenths of the law?

    Quote Originally Posted by Singh400 View Post
    Considering he had, had it for 15 years. I don't think there will be much of a problem.
    I agree, however there is a difference between the law and what happens in the real world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Singh400 View Post
    B) 15 years, if someone wanted it back why didn't they get it much earlier?
    How could the owner have got in back if they did not know who had taken it?

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    ɯʎɔɐɹsɐʌʍ mycarsavw's Avatar
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    Re: Is possession really nine tenths of the law?

    ...and why would they want it back if it was, when it was taken, just a "bit of wood".
    |Kata: "Read title as 'fisting'. Not sure why I clicked. Relieved, really."|
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    Re: Is possession really nine tenths of the law?

    Quote Originally Posted by mycarsavw View Post
    ...and why would they want it back if it was, when it was taken, just a "bit of wood".
    The Mary rose was a 'bit of wood'. It sort of depends on the item itself.

    (Thanks Evilmunky)
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    Re: Is possession really nine tenths of the law?

    Quote Originally Posted by Singh400 View Post
    B) 15 years, if someone wanted it back why didn't they get it much earlier?
    Quote Originally Posted by oolon View Post
    How could the owner have got in back if they did not know who had taken it?
    Sorry, I should have quoted both posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Brucelles View Post
    The Mary rose was a 'bit of wood'. It sort of depends on the item itself.
    At the time the wood was taken it was just a bit of wood. So they wouldn't have wanted it back much earlier as Singh suggested because, I presume, there's plenty more wood in the..er...wood?
    |Kata: "Read title as 'fisting'. Not sure why I clicked. Relieved, really."|
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    Re: Is possession really nine tenths of the law?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortune117 View Post
    AFAIK if something has been thrown out (e.g left by or in a skip) then anyone can come along and take it as their own.
    Absolutely not.

    If property is genuinely abandoned, then it is not theft to take it. But you cannot know that it has been abandoned just because it is in a skip. There could well be an arrangement between the person it used to belong to and a clearance company over the supply of the skip and the possession of the contents. Or a house clearing company could have been paid to clear a house, and part of their charging structure is the scrap or material value of the material they clear.

    Even if you take something to a council tip, people cannot (legally) just go and take what they find. The person that took it to the dump has transferred ownership to the council, and because the council own it, it's theft if (meeting the other conditions of the Theft Act) you just take it. This principle has been tested, See R v. Woodman, 1974.


    As for possession being nine tenths .... this takes me back a long time.

    Firstly, different rules apply in different jurisdictions, so what applies in the UK does not apply in all other locations. Secondly, rules (laws) change over time. Third, it depends on the situation.

    In the UK, the basic principle (IIRC) is nemo dat quod non habet .... you cannot give what you do not have. So in relation to stolen goods, for instance, as the thief doesn't have title to the goods, he can't pass it on so the purchaser of stolen goods doesn't have title. If the theft comes to light, the original owner is entitled to them back.

    For this reason, be VERY careful when buying expensive items like cars, because if it turns out the items were stolen, or even if the seller simply didn't have title, you stand to lose them. For instance, if the car is on finance, the contract will almost certainly say that title does not pass until the contract is complete and the car paid for in full. So if you buy a car under such finance, the car belongs to the finance company and you have to sue the seller to get your money back.

    There used to be an exception to the nemo dat rule, which was the "market overt" exception in the 1979 Sale of Goods Act, but as it was repealed in 1995, it's not worth going into.

    Some countries do also have a "bona fide" exception to the nemo dat rule, whereby the buyer acquires good title if he buys in good faith, but even that varies. For instance, the good faith rule requires that you not know that goods were stolen, but how far does that go? Did you not know because you deliberately didn't ask? If you buy a £500 phone or laptop in a pub for £50, is it a safe assumption that the goods were probably dodgy? Yup. But if you bought them for £450 over an internet auction site, should you have assumed that? Probably not. In the second case, you're probably a victim too, but in the first example, you're either naive, or stupid, or both.

    But what about buying a car? How far should you have to go to avoid losing the good faith exemption? Should you do a finance check? What if you don't know about finance checks?

    Oh, and as stolen goods aren't the only way you might get goods from someone that doesn't have good title, some countries (Germany IIRC) have a fairly strict bona fide (good faith) rule, but it doesn't apply to stolen goods.


    Moving on from stolen goods, what about "lost" items?

    As I said earlier, if you find something genuinely abandoned, then (generally) finder's keepers. As all rights to property are extinguished by abandonment, the first person to find them gets them .... providing nobody else has a better title.

    If you find them on someone else's property, who has title? It may well be the property owner, even if he didn't know they were there. There is a precedent that established this, but I can't remember the case name.

    Also, under English law, if the property is "treasure" (and that term is defined) then the Crown has title, too.

    So what about those "lost" items? Well, "possession" is certainly a valid legal title to goods, in that it does indeed confer a genuine legal right and one that's generally only superseded by that of the original owner. So if you find genuinely lost (as opposed to abandoned) goods, you do have a right to them, but the original owner's right supersedes. Having said that, if you hand the goods to the police and the due period expires without the original owner claiming them, then you will get them and the original owner then generally cannot get them back. I do remember going through the theory behind that but don't remember what it was. Perhaps the absence of checking with the police counts as evidence of abandonment?


    Anyway, that's really only scratching the surface of it and I've got a gut rumble that is very clearly telling me to go locate some lunch and irredeemably appropriate all title to it.

    But you get the idea. The nine tenths rule certainly isn't true in all cases, even in legal terms, but it does have some validity. And Allen ....? Are you regretting asking yet.

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    Re: Is possession really nine tenths of the law?

    I think you just made my brain explode with legal knowledge

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    HEXUS.social member Allen's Avatar
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    Re: Is possession really nine tenths of the law?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And Allen ....? Are you regretting asking yet.
    Not regretting, but hell, my head sure hurts now!

    I'm trying to go through all the info in this thread and pick out what is appropriate to my situation. As said, I didn't really want to go into full details because I didn't know where the person I know stands.

    From what I can understand, he probably doesn't have legal ownership of the said items, but I still don't know what options he has. I'm guessing I could only find that out if I posted full details, but I don't really want to do that.

    Right now I can see 2 options:

    1) Claim it was purchased at a car boot or passed down from a deceased family member. This still won't give legal ownership of the items to the person, but could at least provide a story as to where the items came from. But... he won't want to lie about it.

    2) Hand the items over to the police as lost and found and wait 6 months to see if anyone tries to claim them.

    Just to clear a few things up though, I'm seeing a lot of people talking about theft etc, I understand that under certain parts of the law this could be classed as theft, but the person I know is one of the most honest people I know, he's an upstanding citizen in my eyes. He would've only taken these items if he was given permission by the people clearing out the building, or the building's owner. Saying that though, he would've been given permission for the wood, not these items.

    And the items in particular are not what I would class as treasure, they have virtually no material value, although could be classed as art. I would class it as memorabilia I guess, therefore not massive in value, only worth something to the right collector I would imagine.

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