View Poll Results: Have attitudes towards rape victims changed in the last 10 years

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  • Yes for the better

    6 25.00%
  • No for the worst

    10 41.67%
  • No real change.

    8 33.33%
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Thread: Women say that some 'victims' of Rape are to blame

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    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Women say that some 'victims' of Rape are to blame

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8515592.stm

    A majority of women believe some rape victims should take responsibility for what happened, a survey suggests.
    Almost three quarters of the women who believed this said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility.
    So some women believe some rapE victims should take responsibility for been violated.

    The problem is that some of this could well be the classic shame that is felt by some textbook cases. But that said there are plenty of cases where girls have been drunk, in the presence of a guy who has been drunk and said no at the 11th hour so to speak. I know this has happened to me, the difference I guess is i took it personally and went in to retreat rather than just carried on.

    However, I still think from my personal experience dealing with victims there are too many people whom spout a lot of very negative conditioning, telling people its the worst thing that can happen etc.

    I remember when doing a short child protection course, plenty of my peers couldn't understand why they where been told never to criticise actions that might have been carried out on the child, never make the child 'feel' like anything is wrong. Leave it for the pros to explain, otherwise you risk serious damage. This was to the point of them doing in part of a roll play exercise people been told to react with a straight face to some shocking scenes.

    What I'm getting at is as we are a more open and sexually liberated society, moving from a girl who was raped been labelled as a whore and shunned, to a horrific victim, to someone who was 'asking for it' to people hopefully been able to take a balanced view.

    By this I mean if we can get the more guys approach, I doubt I'm in a minority where at one point I got far too drunk whilst bitterly alone and slept with someone I wouldn't dream of if I was sober (no she wasn't welsh). I was in a horrificly mortified state of shock which was eased by the fact that physical protection had been used (thou not a hazmat suite which would have been my pref) and just stopped drinking for a month, despite wanting the juice to black out that event more than ever.....

    Now I'm not saying that this is remotely the same as the really shameful acts some people suffer, but I think its important we have some sense of proportion.

    At uni it wasn't un-common for always the same girl to send me + corridor buddy a text asking us to help evict someone, she'd invited back, got drunk at their expense then changed her mind.

    You have to treat that differently to someone who was held a knife point in her own home (an ex of mine).

    As soon as people can really understand the difference of circumstances, remove any sense of guilt that a victim often feels.

    So the question is the result of this poll showing a good trend, a bad trend, or no change really?
    Last edited by Zak33; 16-02-2010 at 11:49 AM. Reason: I couldn't leave the word RAP instead of RAPE for any longer.. it was taunting me.
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    Re: Women say that some 'victims' of Rape are to blame

    A number of crimes use different terminology to differentiate the various circumstances. E.g. First degree murder vs second degree and in a way manslaughter too (the end result is the same, one guy is dead and someone is held responsible). I am quite sure this applies to theft/robbery too.

    Does the same apply to rape? There is some logic with what you are saying, we may have the same result (i.e. sex without consent, which I agree is a no no) yet objectively, I do appreciate a difference between the girl who is attacked at knife point the one who played too close with fire.

    Thing is, manipulation is not a crime, though sometime I think it ought to be (it's not in the benefit of society to have people who manipulate others, whether it is the pimp who trick girls into working for him, or the girl who actively use themselves for material benefits - before pulling out).

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    Re: Women say that some 'victims' of Rape are to blame

    Personally i woudl have to say the idea of 'rape' has become far too open ended and it seems to have got to the point where its actually abused by many women. Animus' example about the girl changing her mind is a prime example of the kind of time where it would be used as a go-to to get out of a situation a girl has had second thoughts about... or even planned all along just to get a cheap night out. Dont get my wrong if a girl has second thoughts for whatever reason, and the guy doesnt back down its still a messed up situation and yes technically its rape but as far as making them out to be some kind of a horrified victim goes i wouldnt buy it in most cases.

    An extreme example i know of involves 2 of my mates who had a prior history. One of them was in a new relationship but she had been texting the other lad for a while, everyone knew it was goin on and then when they eventually did it she claimed that he had raped her. Now they only people who really knew what went on that night was the two of them but the question i had to ask myself was, 'whats more likely, him raping her or her not being able to deal with the guilt of cheating'. As i knew them both pretty well it seems far more obvious to be the latter. The lad never got charged due to a lack of evidence... damned right in my eyes.

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    Re: Women say that some 'victims' of Rape are to blame

    I've removed a couple of "thread trashing" posts. Please keep it on topic - which is "Changes in Attitudes to Rape"
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    Re: Women say that some 'victims' of Rape are to blame

    Whenever non consented sex occurs, it is wrong and the doer has committed a crime.

    However in some cases, the woman should take some of the blame. In the same way that someone that walks through a ghetto shouting racial slurs at people can take some of the blame for getting stabbed.
    I have to agree with Biscuit as well.
    Rape should have degrees or should only apply to situations where the woman isn't being a pr*ck tease. The lesser degree shoud have a different name.
    One thing to watch out for is the statistics as well. I remember hearing that a few MP's werre shocked that 90% of rape cases never result in a conviction. They were horrified and demanding something be done.
    The reason for that is simple. 90% of the time in this country, rape accusations are false!
    I was told this by a female police officer who was trained to deal with this kind of crime so got the majority of these kind of cases.
    Due to this, In think that false rape claims should be a specific crime in themselves rather than perverting the course of justice or something like that. Being a crime it would require the same burden of proof (i.e. before court, at least a 70% chance of conviction and guilty beyond reasonable doubt)
    See how the accuser likes a label that sticks with them for life.
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    Re: Women say that some 'victims' of Rape are to blame

    The problem is this:
    http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/...ape-walks-free

    Now this might be me been a little biased (TA opinionated, well i never i hear you say?).

    But when I was at uni a girl decided to put some accusations of assault against me, luckily it was very easy to disprove, the night it was meant to have happened I had a plethora of witnesses and CCTV proving my whereabouts.....

    That been the case for the first 24 hours a very large number of people closed rank on me, and made me feel somewhat un-worthy shall we say.

    A suspended sentence for something like that is incredibly unjust.

    A crime of this nature is very emotive, but we need to stop thinking of it that way, allow balance, stop conditioning so many victims before they even become victims to feel ashamed. And hang that telesales girl.
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    Re: Women say that some 'victims' of Rape are to blame

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    So some women believe some rap victims should take responsibility for been violated.
    Well tbh, it was their choice to listen to it

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    Re: Women say that some 'victims' of Rape are to blame

    Rape has been, and will always be a terrible crime, and I feel sorry nowadays for the victims of rape, as there have been so many women who have tried to use the "rape card" to get back at someone, or try and make some money.

    There are also women out there who are dressing in the skimpiest bit of clothing they can get away with, getting drunk, and then either changing their minds or waking up the next morning a little bit more sober, and then crying rape. These kinds of women are making it harder for the legitimate victims of rape.

    I think that the system is getting better at decerning the false accusations, and the true ones, but it still has a way to go. As for example, if a man is falsely accussed of rape he has still been in the public eye and that kind of alligation tends to stick - whereas as women who makes the false accusation is usually unaffected.

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    Re: Women say that some 'victims' of Rape are to blame

    I'm with TheAnimus here. Far too many girls get drunk, have sex and then regret the decision in the morning and cry rape.

    There have been several cases (something in the Metro this morning, and a while ago a case of a taxi driver) now where it was found out that both parties were willing, and yet the girl always gets off lightly. Do they not realise an accusation like that can ruin a mans life? Personal and professional.

    I do geinuely feel sorry for true rape victims, but those that just cry rape, when it wasn't need punishing.

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    Re: Women say that some 'victims' of Rape are to blame

    As TooNice has said, there's a world of difference from someone who grabs people off the street for their own sick pleasure compared to someone who sleeps with someone else when they're too drunk to know. I think it's the latter cases that are drawing more and more media attention (particularly if someone famous is involved), and is responsible for the shift towards "well it is the victim's fault"


    However I don't really agree that's a good thing, it does make it harder for people to report real cases where consent was never obtained, particularly if their drink has been spiked.

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    Re: Women say that some 'victims' of Rape are to blame

    This is a pretty tricky issue isn't it..... I'm with most people here in feeling that women who bring false claims against men should have the book thrown at them.... not only with a custodial sentence, but also with some kind of fine to reimburse the police for the amount of time they've wasted. That would only apply in very clear cut cases of course.

    The problem really is that the crime itself isn't always clear cut.... and proving it can be hard. I was surprised to read someone saying that 90% of rape accusations prove to be false..... I highly doubt that, but I'd believe that 90% don't lead to convictions, as it's so hard to prove.

    I don't think I agree with the women who said this:

    Almost three quarters of the women who believed this said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility.
    It wouldn't be my own fault if I walked into a rough area and got mugged or stabbed, for example. Sure, it might not have been wise of me to go there, but it's a fundamental freedom to be able to go wherever I like. And in the same way, choosing to get into bed with someone (who may or may not turn out to be unstable) does not mean that you forgo the right to not be violated, that's just absurd. Anybody has the right to choose not to engage in sexual activity at ANY point, sure, it may be rude just change your mind and get up and walk out, but if that makes the other person feel bad/angry/whatever then at the end of the day that's their problem to deal with.

    So I don't think that this shift in attitude is a good thing. Sure, some women are pr*ck teases, but it's our responsibility to deal with that/avoid those women, just as we'd avoid all other manner of annoying/distasteful people.

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    Re: Women say that some 'victims' of Rape are to blame

    Quote Originally Posted by GSte View Post



    It wouldn't be my own fault if I walked into a rough area and got mugged or stabbed, for example.
    A close analogy I feel would be like walking into an alleyway with a large neon sign saying - this alleyway is where people go to get stabbed', or something like that.

    I'm sure that if I have been out drinking with a girl and we go back to my/her bed it'd be reasonable that both of us are expecting to have sex. Obviously some girls take exception to this and quite rightly, like you said, if someone doesn't want sex then it should not be forced on them. But that kind of scenario and the scenario of a girl being attacked on a dark alley and being raped are very different indeed.
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    Re: Women say that some 'victims' of Rape are to blame

    My point was simply that just because you put yourself in a situation where it's possible that something bad could happen, that doesn't mean that you are to blame if it does. It is still the perpetrator who should take all of the blame for his/her actions, regardless of the expectations that either party had beforehand.

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    Re: Women say that some 'victims' of Rape are to blame

    Quote Originally Posted by GSte View Post
    My point was simply that just because you put yourself in a situation where it's possible that something bad could happen, that doesn't mean that you are to blame if it does. It is still the perpetrator who should take all of the blame for his/her actions, regardless of the expectations that either party had beforehand.
    There's a difference between it being your fault, and you taking some responsibility, though.

    If an area, for instance, was known as a mugging black spot, then personally, I feel I'd be pushing my luck walking down it, late at night, on my own, with an expensive laptop slung over my shoulder, counting the £50 notes in my wallet.

    It's a case of when you take some responsibility for your own actions.

    Consider negligence. When is something you do negligent? When :-

    1) You have a duty of care
    2) You breach that duty
    3) As a result, someone suffers a loss or damage.

    As a driver, you owe a duty of care to pedestrians not to run them over. If you do, you breached the duty. If they suffer damages as a result, be it torn clothes or physical injury, then you stand to lose a negligence suit (assuming all can be proven).

    But .... if it can be shown that you weren't watching where you were going and wandered out in to the road, then the principle of "contributory negligence" kicks in, and the damages awarded will be reduced by the amount the court deems you have have contributed to your loss by your own negligence. By your action, you are partly responsible for what happened to you.

    Another example. Check your insurance policy to see where you stand for theft claims if no clear evidence of break-in exists? Or if you don't have the mandated locks on your home. Just because you don't have good enough locks doesn't mean you are to blame for being burgled, but it does mean that you could have and, for most insurance policies, should have taken better precautions.

    To my mind, rape is always the fault of the rapist and not the victim, but there are situations where the victim has to take some responsibility for putting themselves in a vulnerable situation. For instance, getting so drunk they don't know what they are doing (and I exclude spiked drinks from that).

    The victim being drunk does not excuse the rapist, and nor does the rapist being drunk excuse the rapist any more than claiming you were too Mozart to realise driving your car was illegal will help you if you're caught drunk and driving.

    But, by voluntarily getting so drunk that you end up putting yourself in a vulnerable situation means you should at least accept that, had you not got so drunk, you might well have exercised better care. If you're so potted you stagger out into the road right in front of a car, giving the driver no chance at all to stop, are you responsible for your own injuries?

    Rapists are always to blame and rape victim are never to blame, but that doesn't mean that the victim should not take some responsibility for being so stupid, or naive, as to do things they wouldn't do if they thought about it, and were sober. After all, getting drunk was a choice, and we should all take responsibility for our actions, and the results of our choices.

    If I go out and leave all my doors wide open, I'm not to blame for being burgled, but I'm sure responsible for making it more likely than it would be if the doors were properly shut and locked.

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    Re: Women say that some 'victims' of Rape are to blame

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post

    If I go out and leave all my doors wide open, I'm not to blame for being burgled, but I'm sure responsible for making it more likely than it would be if the doors were properly shut and locked.

    A very good post overall, and this part makes the most sense.
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    Re: Women say that some 'victims' of Rape are to blame

    Quote Originally Posted by format View Post
    A very good post overall, and this part makes the most sense.
    Agreed. Saracen put into words some of what I was trying to say far better.
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