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Thread: More encounters with police officers [long post]

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    More encounters with police officers [long post]

    This happened two years ago, and I wrote down the events shortly after. In fact, I was pretty close to posting it on Hexus at the time, but wasn't sure if it was a good idea. In light of the recent posts, I figured that I would share my own experience with officers of the law.

    After spending a week with little/no sleep (I am known for pulling all nighters for several days during exam periods), I went straight to bed after my final exams. In the late afternoon, I heard some knocks. Half-asleep, I looked through the peep hole and saw two officers. When I opened the door, I realised that they were actually armed. At that point I thought that maybe something happened and they are looking for witnesses. They told me that they were investigating a claim that someone with a firearm/something that looked like a firearm threatened a passer-by on the street below from the window earlier in the afternoon. I explained that I am just exhausted from my exams, have been sleeping the whole afternoon and denied possessing a firearm or anything that looks like one, let alone threatened a passer-by with it (and my window doesn't even open fully). They then asked for reconfirmation and suggested that it would be much better to fess up right then if I did do something like that, as opposed to them finding out later that I had lied. They were not physically threatening, but whether it was intentional or not, and whether it was meant to be a friendly warning or not, mentioning that it was a tough job market, and I did not want to end up with a criminal record was psychologically intimidating. But since I really didn't do anything, I could only reaffirm my position and they left.

    Yet they obviously didn't believe me because 10 minutes later, they knocked on my door again, and asked for permission to search the flat. They made it clear that I was not obliged to let them in, but they would be back with a warrant if I did not let them. I was quite annoyed because I knew that I've not done anything wrong, but I also understood that it's a severe accusation and one that I would expect them to thoroughly investigate. I also had more reasons than most to co-operate and to not get into trouble with the law. Not that not that there is ever good to get in trouble, not that I was already in trouble or anything, but for one, I was going on a research trip overseas for the dissertation component of my course in a few days, with my flights and appointments with property developers already booked. I was also hoping that by being co-operative, they will go a bit easier with the search (I have a lot of stuff, and it's just a pain having to move things to get access to boxes/briefcases behind them). I was also weary of raising suspicions since I did fit the description they gave of the accused.

    They were quite thorough and I had to call my flatmate to gain access to some of his locked belongings, and I got a bit nervous when I realised that we had an electric screw driver (vaguely shaped like a gun with enough of imagination). But common sense prevailed and they didn't look at that twice. After they were done, they conveyed that they were reasonably satisfied and that it should be the end of it. They took down my name (obviously already had my address) and left their police ID number when asked.

    As a whole, I can't say that it ended badly. Since they didn't assure me that it was definitely the end of it, I did spend a while worrying that they will be back, and I asked my flatmate to keep me updated even after I left for the trip (he is off the hook since he was at work during that time and has his colleagues to vouch for that). The officers attitude did mellow as they carried on with the search and no damage was caused. The beginning could've been much better, yet it could've been MUCH worse too.

    What I do find unfair though is that someone can cause so much hassle (and distress) by making a false accusation (I don't think it's a case of wrong flat because no one else in the block fits the description), and as far as I know, I can not take legal actions against them since I do not know who made such an accusation. And I am also concerned about, is what would've happened if I did indeed possess a BB gun and admitted to it when they first questioned me. Is the accuser's account sufficient to 'prove' guilt?

    And would any of you have done anything differently (keeping in mind the circumstances)?

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    Formerly known as Andehh Andeh13's Avatar
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    Re: More encounters with police officers [long post]

    Seems like you got unlucky im afraid. false accusations are fairly serious & you can get in a lot of trouble for it. I'd be surprised to hear who/why they said what they did about you & your window though.

    In all due fairness to the police, if there's a chance someone has an illegal firearm, id rather they were thorough/persistent when it came to double checking and pushing for answers then if they just took your first answer. In your position I'd have offered to let them have a quick look around around if it were to end things sooner rather than later.

    Having been caught racing (saxo drivers...pfft ), given a bollocking & then let off I do have a great deal of respect for the police and tend to give them the benefit of the doubt more than your average joe!

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    ho! ho! ho! mofo santa claus's Avatar
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    Re: More encounters with police officers [long post]

    Noone likes intrusion in their home but we all recognise that this isn't a perfect world and there'll be times when balancing up the pros and cons of a given situation is necessary. I think you did the right thing. Someone near you is using a gun (I heard on the news today that a child was killed by an air rifle shot) and by assisting, the police were able to move quickly away from you, an innocent person. It's 2 years ago now so you know you're in the clear from any kind of follow up. It's a nice little story for your grandkids too

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    Re: More encounters with police officers [long post]

    Wait... you talked to them and then let them into your house?

    Do not talk to the police.
    Do not consent to a search.

    What if they'd found a rubber gun in your roommate's room which you knew nothing about? You'd now be facing charges.

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    Re: More encounters with police officers [long post]

    Quote Originally Posted by santa claus View Post
    Noone likes intrusion in their home but we all recognise that this isn't a perfect world and there'll be times when balancing up the pros and cons of a given situation is necessary. I think you did the right thing. Someone near you is using a gun (I heard on the news today that a child was killed by an air rifle shot) and by assisting, the police were able to move quickly away from you, an innocent person. It's 2 years ago now so you know you're in the clear from any kind of follow up. It's a nice little story for your grandkids too
    What if your an active air soft player.

    I have a g36c, mp5, glock 18c, USP compact and a desert eagle right now. They are all packed in a bag, with a simple combination padlock on that would be enough to stop any children, or drunk friends of mine behaving like children getting access.

    If someone wanted to make an allegation like that against me. What would should I do?

    Let them in, they find them, take me to the station for questioning, I have to pay for a lawyer (I don't think my business one would be suitable!)..... And I doubt they will let me bill them for the loss of earnings.

    Tell them I have a collection of airsoft guns, they will probably arrest me, then perform a search as getting a warrant under those circumstances shouldn't be hard.

    Tell them that I appreciate they have to follow up on an investigation like that, but they should consider getting a warrent if they have valid evidence, or they shouldn't be wasting all of our time.

    In my case, I would probably have to go with the latter two options, as the first wouldn't turn out well. Given that the last option, not helping, would require them to have reasonable grounds such as a signed witness statement which I could then pursue action against myself. I'd imagine for me not co-operating at all would help.

    I'm not saying that you should always be obstinant to the police.

    I did get woken up by the police once, to find two vans full of police with a very poorly fitted suite wearing old fellow, and a much younger guy who actually knew how to iron a shirt calling me by a different name.

    In fact it was the son of the person I bought the place off. I said that if they'd checked with the land registry, or even just the electoral roll it would be obvious he doesn't live there any more and they left as quickly as they had arrived with no fuss. I got the impression that they would have been less co-operative if I hadn't politely told them all my details, which they should have already known at this point anyway. In this case a bit of information I divulged was mutually beneficial.
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    Re: More encounters with police officers [long post]

    Well, sure it makes for a story, but it's really no far fetched for anyone to possess a BB gun. Though I do not possess one, and will very likely think twice before doing so, I have many times shown at least a casual interested and been tempted to buy one.

    The fact that I was travelling very soon weighted heavily on me. There were questions I did not have an answer for. 1. Could they have stopped me from travelling? 2. If not, and given that my flatmate work until very late, would they have just come back and broke down the door when there is no one to let them in? And there is also the hypothetical 3., that I can't let go of, that is was I very much stuffed no matter what actions I took if had I actually possessed a BB gun (legal)? From their side, I can't think what else they could do.

    @TeePee: I don't think that's really an option in the UK.

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    Senior Member JPreston's Avatar
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    Re: More encounters with police officers [long post]

    Quote Originally Posted by santa claus View Post
    ...It's a nice little story for your grandkids too

    Santa, you're a very clever person, I don't think I've disagreed with you in the past, but you have such a blind spot when it comes to the police that I'm literally astounded.

    Armed police demanded entry to a private home, without any sort of warrant or judicial oversight and the only nod to due process was accompanied by a nebulous threat of 'making it worse' for the householder should they refuse to surrender their rights on the spot. The purpose of this illegal search was to find something incriminating (anything at all will do because without a warrant, there is no stated purpose for the search) and it was incumbent on the householder, under the assumption of guilt, to prove his innocence by consenting to them illegally rifling through his belongings.

    The US does not exactly lead the world in civil rights, but in many US states TooNice could have killed both of those police officers right there in his hall and never faced charges. This is not a loophole, or conniving bending of the law it's the intended application of vital laws on the protection of the individual. If police demand entry to your home with no documented reason* and the threat of worse treatment should you dare to ask for one, they are not police officers and that is not a police search. They are armed thugs and that's aggravated burglary. That's a crime on either side of the atlantic.

    The only way that will be a 'nice story for the grandkids' will be if they live in a dystopic fascist totalitarian state, and the notion that this sort of situation was once a novelty might seem quaint to them. We aren't (as some people are fond of saying) sleep walking into such a state. We are actively being ushered into it by opinions such as yours.




    *police without a 'search warrant' can still enter a property to make an arrest, and can legally search the property following that arrest. In the case of shared accommodation their warrant covers areas under the control of the arrested person ONLY i.e. communal areas and his room. Other private rooms need separate warrants as they are completely separate properties that happen to share exterior walls. Yeah, I've had my share of dawn raids
    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell

    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.

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    Senior Member JPreston's Avatar
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    Re: More encounters with police officers [long post]

    Quote Originally Posted by TooNice View Post
    Well, sure it makes for a story, but it's really no far fetched for anyone to possess a BB gun. Though I do not possess one, and will very likely think twice before doing so, I have many times shown at least a casual interested and been tempted to buy one.

    The fact that I was travelling very soon weighted heavily on me. There were questions I did not have an answer for. 1. Could they have stopped me from travelling? 2. If not, and given that my flatmate work until very late, would they have just come back and broke down the door when there is no one to let them in? And there is also the hypothetical 3., that I can't let go of, that is was I very much stuffed no matter what actions I took if had I actually possessed a BB gun (legal)? From their side, I can't think what else they could do.

    @TeePee: I don't think that's really an option in the UK.
    1. Absolutely, you could have been charged with a spurious offence ("withholding information" about the alleged armed terrorist in the other room) and made to surrender your passport. If you fancied committing an actual serious offence you could have applied for a replacement passport saying you had lost the original and travelled anyway (when police confiscate a passport, there's no link to the passport service stopping you getting a replacement at least for the first few days) but you'd be arrested on re-entry to the UK.

    2. Unlikely (as they then have to make the property secure until the householder returns), but with such a serious crime having not been committed () then it's possible, yes.

    3. Yes BB (and replica, and licensed genuine, and water etc) guns are legal and yes you would have been truly stuffed then (quick! get a new passport and run to Mexico!), but this what happens when you let the police act outside all semblence of their authority. You'd also have had your PCs and phone impounded as evidence, even if you weren't held. Quite how as an innocent man you'd get yourself out of that pickle, is down to you. People like Santa aren't going to lose sleep over it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell

    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.

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    Re: More encounters with police officers [long post]

    I doubt anywhere would permit you to shoot them after consenting to a search. The police here use the same intimidation tactics to attempt to get consent.

    You DO have the same right to not incriminate yourself.

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    Re: More encounters with police officers [long post]

    Quote Originally Posted by JPreston View Post
    Santa, you're a very clever person
    Thank you, I'm flattered. The feeling is mutual.

    Armed police demanded..............opinions such as yours.
    My contact with the police has been limited as is the general case of the law-abiding. But the notion that some gestapo-esque police force is rampantly stealing our rights from us whilst our backs are turned is one I find hard to believe. The flexibility that the police need to perform an effective job in the melting pot of our modern cities, is clearly too much for some people to handle and I accept that what the police can do by law and what they need to do to keep people safe are not the same.

    My willingness for flexibility to assist the police is not the slippery slope to a totalitarian state, it is a personal choice that I would exercise. I'm not saying it's the right choice for everyone; just the right one for me.

    The controls and scrutiny applied to the police equates with that of Parliament (hmm, not sure that's a statement that helps me!) so I'm not too worried yet and my views above took into account the possible disruption of TooNice's travel arrangements and he knew he had nothing to hide. In his circumstances, what would you have done?

    Yeah, I've had my share of dawn raids
    Are these colouring your opinion ?

    People like Santa aren't going to lose sleep over it.
    True. People like Santa aren't going to lose sleep over the hypothetical.
    Last edited by santa claus; 27-02-2010 at 02:01 PM.

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    Re: More encounters with police officers [long post]

    Yet the hypothetical in this instance is not that far fetched. It's hardly unusual to possess a toy/BB gun. And had the justice system failed me because I did possess something resembling a gun, admitted to it (yet never threatened to it), I may not be here to make this post today.

    Or if I was charged then released, my view of the police/legal system would be severely embittered. Given the way everything turned out, I do believe that the source of the problem is the one who made the malicious 'tip', but it just seem like something so easy to do.

    And it's also worth noting that the police is empowered to deal with the hypothetical. Terrorist threats are real, but saying that you are likely to find them amongst random photographers is questionable. Doesn't strike as fair to empower them on the basis that a single person saved (in a hypothetical scenario) is worth it, yet the possibility of a person getting framed (also hypothetical) is not worth worrying about.
    Last edited by TooNice; 27-02-2010 at 10:37 PM.

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    ho! ho! ho! mofo santa claus's Avatar
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    Re: More encounters with police officers [long post]

    The police act on tips (a la Crimewatch) to help solve crimes. Some tips given may be malicious and others given in good faith may be misguided. You were on the wrong end of one or the other. It happens.

    I'm thinking about bringing you a BB gun next Christmas and leaving it just inside the chimney then informing the Old Bill where you've hidden it.....

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    Re: More encounters with police officers [long post]

    Santa out of curiosity, may I ask where did you grow up, and are you Caucasian?
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    Re: More encounters with police officers [long post]

    I suspect you're asking for reasons other than curiosity. May I ask the relevance of your questions?

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    Re: More encounters with police officers [long post]

    From the description of events given, I think I would have acted exactly as TooNice did and given permission for the search.

    Why?

    Because in the event of someone actually waving a gun or something believed to be a gin around, the best interests of everyone, including me, are to get it sorted out as soon as possible. And, as the Firearms Act contains specific provisions for the issuing of a warrant if a magistrate is satisfied by an officer giving, under oath, statements that "reasonable ground to suspect" firearms offences covered by the act have been are being or are about to be committed, then a warrant is very likely to be forthcoming anyway. Obviously, a lot depends on what information they have and whether it constitutes "reasonable" grounds, but where firearms offences are concerned, a magistrate is likely to err on the side of caution. That, by he way, was not my opinion but the opinion of a magistrate, though only one. And, of course, if the police do come back with a warrant, it will include the power to firce entry if necessary, and the householder gets to pick up the bill for any damage.

    So, given the nature of the allegations, it;s very likely a warrant would be issued, and so it's likely a search is going to take place anyway.

    And, for the record, there are circumstances in which a search vcan take place without a warrant, one of which is where there is a reasonable belief that waiting for one will result in the ends of justice being frustrated, such as evidence being destroyed.

    TooNice, given the nature of the allegations, I suspect it's very likely you were going to get searched. One way you're a cooperative person willing to assist, and the other, you're uncooperative and putting them to unnecessary hassle. I know which I'd rather be .... and besides, if it wasn't me, maybe someone else was waving a gun about and the sooner the police find them, the safer I'll be.

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    Re: More encounters with police officers [long post]

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    From the description of events given...........the safer I'll be.
    Bah, I wish I'd written it like that .

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