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Thread: Peter Hitchens article on his relationship with his atheist brother, Christopher

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    Thumbs up Peter Hitchens article on his relationship with his atheist brother, Christopher

    One can never stop saying Thank You

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    Re: Peter Hitchens article on his relationship with his atheist brother, Christopher

    Shame an article like that got put in a rag like the Mail tbh. Deserves better.

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    Now with added sobriety Rave's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Hitchens article on his relationship with his atheist brother, Christopher

    Bloody hell, a bit of a long article to 'Fisk', if I may use the right wing blogosphere terminology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Hitchens
    No doubt I should be ashamed to confess that fear played a part in my return to religion, specifically a painting: Rogier van der Weyden's 15th Century Last Judgement, which I saw in Burgundy while on holiday.

    I had scoffed at its mention in the guidebook, but now I gaped, my mouth actually hanging open, at the naked figures fleeing towards the pit of Hell.

    These people did not appear remote or from the ancient past; they were my own generation. Because they were naked, they were not imprisoned in their own age by time-bound fashions.

    On the contrary, their hair and the set of their faces were entirely in the style of my own time. They were me, and people I knew.
    Erm....why? Were you and the people you knew actually engaged in acts of pure evil at the time? What actually set off this terror that you might be damned for all eternity?

    I had a sudden strong sense of religion being a thing of the present day, not imprisoned under thick layers of time. My large catalogue of misdeeds replayed themselves rapidly in my head.

    I had absolutely no doubt that I was among the damned, if there were any damned. Van der Weyden was still earning his fee, nearly 500 years after his death.
    Again, why?

    At around the same time I rediscovered Christmas, which I had pretended to dislike for many years. I slipped into a carol service on a winter evening, diffident and anxious not to be seen.

    I knew perfectly well that I was enjoying it, although I was unwilling to admit it. I also knew I was losing my faith in politics and my trust in ambition, and was urgently in need of something else on which to build the rest of my life.
    My parents were and are atheists, and yet they got me to sing in a church choir from when I was 7 to 13. I fairness I loved it- loved the music, loved the Christian message. I may sound arrogant, but I had a beautiful treble voice as a kid, and I like to think that as a result of me singing in that choir a load of people got to enjoy a lot of beautiful music, beautifully sung. And for 5 years Christmas was a time to look forward to, because I had a couple of months singing some awesome tunes.

    Being Christian is one thing. Fighting for a cause is another, and much easier to acknowledge - for in recent times it has grown clear that the Christian religion is threatened with a dangerous defeat by secular forces which have never been so confident.

    Why is there such a fury against religion now? Because religion is the one reliable force that stands in the way of the power of the strong over the weak. The one reliable force that forms the foundation of the concept of the rule of law.
    Erm wut? My personal recollection of events in 1998 was that the vast majority of people didn't give a toss about the age of consent being equallised for gay and stright people at 16. It was that arsehole, homophobic bully Baroness Young and the CofE bishops in the House of Lords that kicked up a stink. I wrote a letter to Janet Young as a student, cussing her out. Apparently there's a proper way to address a Peer Of The Realm in a letter, and I didn't follow it. Good!.

    The one reliable force that restrains the hand of the man of power. In an age of powerworship, the Christian religion has become the principal obstacle to the desire of earthly utopians for absolute power.
    Never mind, say, No2ID, an organisation with no political or religious affiliation, to whom I personally give £10 a month so they can fight the database state.

    While I was making my gradual, hesitant way back to the altar-rail, my brother Christopher's passion against God grew more virulent and confident.

    As he has become more certain about the non-existence of God, I have become more convinced we cannot know such a thing in the way we know anything else, and so must choose whether to believe or not. I think it better by far to believe.
    Yeah, like Christopher, I think it far better not to. In the absence of proof, we're going to have to agree to disagree, no?

    It is my belief that passions as strong as his are more likely to be countered by the unexpected force of poetry, which can ambush the human heart at any time.
    Oh right, so you can base your entire belief system on rationalism, extrapolated from first principles (my first principles, for the record, are that all men and women should be equal, and that there's only one life, which is obviously better than death, hence premature death is a bad thing).

    And yet this fundamental belief system can, apparently, be challenged at any time...by poetry.

    Well maybe a few lines of well written verse could steer me from my moral course. Unlikely, though, TBH.

    It is also my view that, as with all atheists, he is his own chief opponent. As long as he can convince himself, nobody else will persuade him. His arguments are to some extent internally coherent and are a sort of explanation - if not the best explanation - of the world and the universe.
    Well I can't speak for Christopher, but my beliefs are based on the works of the many physicists who have presented an entirely plausible case for the formation of the universe and the reasons for its present form. If you want to build some sort of large, 30km long machine to reveal god, then good luck to you.

    He often assumes that moral truths are self-evident, attributing purpose to the universe and swerving dangerously round the problem of conscience - which surely cannot be conscience if he is right since the idea of conscience depends on it being implanted by God. If there is no God then your moral qualms might just as easily be the result of indigestion.
    WTF? Why can't the idea of conscience be based on an extrapolation of some simple first principles which happen to coincide entirely with Christian belief? I don't need a god to tell me that all people are created equal; I don't need a god to tell me killing is wrong. To me these truths are self evident.

    One of the problems atheists have is the unbelievers' assertion that it is possible to determine what is right and what is wrong without God. They have a fundamental inability to concede that to be effectively absolute a moral code needs to be beyond human power to alter.
    The problem you have, Peter, is that you think you're too stupid to figure out what is right and what is wrong for yourself. Hey, maybe you are. I don't need to be told, I can figure it out for myself.

    Left to himself, Man can in a matter of minutes justify the incineration of populated cities
    ~200,000 killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki- Vs potentially half a million or more killed in a conventional land war to take over Japan? People forget that more people died in in two nights of conventional firebombing of Tokyo than were killed by either atomic bomb.

    For a moral code to be effective, it must be attributed to, and vested in, a non-human source. It must be beyond the power of humanity to change it to suit itself.
    Oh, piss off. Death is wrong, living is good, how about that?

    Its most powerful expression is summed up in the words 'Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends'.

    The huge differences which can be observed between Christian societies and all others, even in the twilit afterglow of Christianity, originate in this specific injunction.
    Yeah, but how about "greater love hath no man than this, that we should all stop killing each other and get along"? Don't ya think?

    Humans, he says, are not so constituted as to care for others as much as themselves.
    <Snip>through the heartrending deeds of courage on the battlefield.
    If they cared for each other, they wouldn't be waging war to the death. I know it's nearly 100 years ago now, but- correct me if I'm wrong- the First World War was fought between two Christian nations.

    Soviet Communism is organically linked to atheism, materialist rationalism and most of the other causes the new atheists support. It used the same language, treasured the same hopes and appealed to the same constituency as atheism does today.

    When its crimes were still unknown, or concealed, it attracted the support of the liberal intelligentsia who were then, and are even more now, opposed to religion.
    Well, even assuming that I was in support of communism at the age of 10, which I wasn't, it's now 20 years down the line and I'm now a 30 year old atheist liberal. So you can't throw that **** at me, rubbishrubbishrubbishrubbish.

    To my astonishment, Christopher cooked supper, a domesticated action so unexpected that I still haven't got over it. He had even given up smoking.
    LIBERAL, SELLOUT PUSSY!:LOL:LOL:
    Last edited by Rave; 10-03-2010 at 04:52 AM.

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    Hexus.Jet TeePee's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Hitchens article on his relationship with his atheist brother, Christopher

    I love the christian trappings. The quiet solitude of a church, and the Anglican marriage ceremony is amazing.

    That said, how consciousness or morality are proof of the christian myth is once again a poor, illogical and redundant argument. Morality is quite obviously a product of evolution.

    I'm not liberal, but libertarian. If people want to practice religion, let them, but keep it out of government and schools, and don't suggest that I should have any respect for their weakness of thought.

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    Re: Peter Hitchens article on his relationship with his atheist brother, Christopher

    oh you see this is why I don't read the daily fail.

    What a lot of un-substantiated tosh, I feel the need to quote it all with [citation needed]..........

    I can't help but feel with these people its like they are presenting a solution for a unified theory, but they decided that it only has one variable, and anyone who suggests there is more than one is a liar.
    throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)

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    Re: Peter Hitchens article on his relationship with his atheist brother, Christopher

    morning, all

    One can never stop saying Thank You

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    ALT0153™ Rob_B's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Hitchens article on his relationship with his atheist brother, Christopher

    Seems like a 'I'm right, you're wrong' article to me.

    I've had the 'discussion' with my father in law a few times, it always ends with us agreeing that neither of us can understand how the other does/doesn't believe in God.
    I always say I'll believe what has the most proof, I'd love to be proved wrong but at the present time that's not the case so I stick to my current views.

    Last night he was around our flat & reading a new book I'd bought 'Bad Science' and was laughing at the revelations that Tony/Cherie Blair used crystals to ensure their kids didn't get MMR (and other new-age rubbish) but he still believes in God/Jesus/Creation etc, I just don't get that!
    Last edited by Rob_B; 10-03-2010 at 05:03 PM.

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    Re: Peter Hitchens article on his relationship with his atheist brother, Christopher

    Ever seen a devout christian 'knock on wood'?

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    Re: Peter Hitchens article on his relationship with his atheist brother, Christopher

    Ever seen a devout atheist 'knock on wood'?
    One can never stop saying Thank You

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    Re: Peter Hitchens article on his relationship with his atheist brother, Christopher

    Quote Originally Posted by fuddam View Post
    Ever seen a devout atheist 'knock on wood'?
    Yeah, this loose piece of wood keeps working its way free
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    Re: Peter Hitchens article on his relationship with his atheist brother, Christopher

    Quote Originally Posted by fuddam View Post
    Ever seen a devout atheist 'knock on wood'?

    No.. Atheists are, in my opinion, far more likely to know the origins of the phrase, and a 'devout' atheist would avoid religious phrases in earnest.
    Last edited by TeePee; 11-03-2010 at 03:41 AM.

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    Re: Peter Hitchens article on his relationship with his atheist brother, Christopher

    He often assumes that moral truths are self-evident, attributing purpose to the universe and swerving dangerously round the problem of conscience - which surely cannot be conscience if he is right since the idea of conscience depends on it being implanted by God. If there is no God then your moral qualms might just as easily be the result of indigestion.
    This is what gets up my nose. The bad logic and blindness of faith I can get by, but assuming that anyone who has a conscience owes it to God is bloody offensive. I am a lot more conscientious than the average paedophile priest, and I owe none of it to any imaginary magic chap. And neither does the priest.

    (Thanks Evilmunky)
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    Re: Peter Hitchens article on his relationship with his atheist brother, Christopher

    an organized religion based on "touch wood" sounds like a great idea, anyone want to buy some enchanted offcuts?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ephesians
    Do not be drunk with wine, which will ruin you, but be filled with the Spirit
    Vodka

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    Re: Peter Hitchens article on his relationship with his atheist brother, Christopher

    I'm fairly sure that the actuality of society is quite well explained by the selfish gene theory without ant any reference to morals at all.
    Society's to blame,
    Or possibly Atari.

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    Re: Peter Hitchens article on his relationship with his atheist brother, Christopher

    Wow lot a load of waffle. I love they way his tumultuous life (at least his description of it in an article publicising his book ) has him grasping and clamoring after one extreme and another. He and religion make good bedfellows I feel. As ever it's great to see fuddam decry ignorant atheists. Is every post he starts an attempt to further his religous education? Is it a trolling conceit? Is he trying to extend his flock (an unapologetic apologist, could be, could be)? Perhaps he just likes division? What better tool than religion to eke such feelings from people!

    I sometimes wonder.
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