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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8550539.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8574378.stm
Two very brave lads.... one sadly dead now.
Well worth reading... one of the guys disposed of 7 Taliban bombs, with no protective clothing, to help his fallen and injured comrades get the hell outtsa dodge.
I do think they should have the VC to be fair - silly rules that you have to be in direct fire to be awarded the VC. I would have thought that bomb disposal is just as dangerous, if not more dangerous even than being in a firefight. It's still the enemy trying to kill you isn't it?
Two extremely brave guys. I feel that it is not the medal that's important but what it stands for.
I quite agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumble
The "rules" were written back in the days bgefore IEDs and sneaky boobytraps, I think they should be revised.
hey..none the less.. proper courage :)
S!
This isn't proper courage though. Far from it. A couple of hours of stressful work is absolutely nothing compared to what they're all putting up with day in, day out.
It takes REAL courage to sit out there on the front lines every day without having a breakdown. They all deserve medals.
I sure as hell couldn't do it, but I'm bloody grateful that they can!
I'm sorry, not PROPER courage?!Quote:
Originally Posted by matty-hodgson
'couple of hours stressful work' Seriously you don't know the half of it.
matty... that's not in character for you !
Bomb disposal IS in the thick of it.. AND they did it to get the injured out of the hot zone...
so I am gonna presume, hopefully, that you just miss typed that bit :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rastamanblues
No, you're not seeing my point. A few hours of bomb disposal is obviously gonna be hell. And yeah, it does take balls to do that kind of thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak33
But I personally think that's nothing compared to what they ALL put up with out there, day after day, week after week. Never seeing their families, never seeing their friends, never doing much apart from try and keep the world a better place while being shot at from everyone, having tonnes of regulations placed upon them, not having enough weapons, all that stuff.
I just think that this stuff doesn't deserve medals specifically, I think they all deserve the same praise.
EDIT: And that is MY opinion, which I am fully entitled to.
Hope much is that fact, and how much is your opinion? (Which yes you are entitled to, but no need to get all defensive over eh ;))Quote:
Originally Posted by matty-hodgson
Not quite true, they do get to fly back and spend a week/2 with there friends/family/loved ones. Ok at times it can be anywhere from 2-6 months apart. BUT its not like this was hidden from them when they joined up. No one forced them to sign up . . .Quote:
Never seeing their families, never seeing their friends
Depending on there role/where they are not always the case. They do get some R+R time.Quote:
never doing much apart from try and keep the world a better place while being shot at from everyone
Quote:
having tonnes of regulations placed upon them
Care to name any sources on those?Quote:
not having enough weapons
Terry Hodgson - My uncle.Quote:
Originally Posted by rastamanblues
From what I can make of it, bomb disposal in a place like Afghanistan currently is is probably about the single most dangerous job assignment. And, on top of that, the disposal guys are out there without their families, just like all the others are.
I certainly think it's pointless arguing about what medal they deserve, though personally, I have no less respect for the troops that don't get medals than I have for those that do, and certainly no less because it's a GC not a VC. They're all out there for their country, and they're all taking their chances, and they're all doing a job that I for one wouldn't want to do.
My one reservation is that I'm not convinced its a job we ought to be asking them to do in the first place. But given that we, as a country, have asked them to do it I'm proud as hell of the way they do it, all of them, medals or not.
Bomb disposal takes some serious balls. These acts of gallantry are well deserving.
I find it fascinating to read the storys behind the medals. Really does make yo think.
Interesting interview with a bomb disposal chap on Saturday Live today- listened to it on my way to work. I think it was on from about 25-35 minutes in:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/satlive
If they do 30 days continuously (I think it's that at the moment), then they do: Imaginatively named the Operation Service Medal for Afghanistan.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty-hodgson
Courage or no Courage, they joined the Army, not forced into the Army, they know the risks nowadays, it's not like being thrown into the Army or else like before.
And, wow, a medal, an amazing piece of metal that must be to the family now missing a loved one.
Honestly I lol at this, no amount of award or money can bring that guy back, so is all pretty pointless crap imo.
And do what any REAL man does now, leave the army and spend a year in Prison here, not only does it save your life, but it will save your family from lifetime of regret and pain that will tear away at you every single minute until you are also dead. Plus, it takes you away from a pointless and endless fight against a few Taliban who know that country so much that unless they nuke Afghanistan, or send in a few million troops to wipe it, it will never, ever, be won.
Call me negative, but the truth hurts sometimes.
That is just stupid beyond belief SammEl
Say that to his Wife and Parents.Quote:
Originally Posted by finlay666
maybe I am a bit stupid but why defuse what you can just blow up?
Purely my own (layman) view, but i suppose if the immediate area is of value (transport route, valuable building). My guess would be that this would be measured against the risk to human life on a case by case basis, but as i said, just my view.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay
I'm not calling you negative, I'm calling you a well I can't say on here the names that are generally being hurled in your direction. :censored:Quote:
Originally Posted by SammEl
Quote:
Originally Posted by SammEl
Call you negative. Surely simply wrong will do?
If the family felt like you they wouldn't have turned up to receive the medal. They would have told them to shove it up their back side.
But they didn't, and no doubt are feeling some amazing sense of pride at what their loved one achieved. The Medal shows the bravery of their loved one. And as such they will cherish it.
Samel, don't talk utter rubbish.
Yeah the families may be hurting, but surely knowing that there son or daughter, dead or alive has earned a medal for his or her hard work in an extremely tough and dangerous environment, it will make them feel better knowing that there son or daughter didnt just waste there life as you seem to think.
To be truthful i think your post and view is pretty disgusting and disrespectful to those that have lost loved one's in this war.
I nearly lost my dad in a war, not going to mention which because I dont wish to, but when people spout rubbish like you have, really gets on my nerves and annoys me. He was doing what he chose to do and what he loved, if he would have died, yeah it would have hurt, but I would have considered it a waste, not in the slightest.
What he did and what others do takes and toook proper courage and I hold everyone who has been to war and those that have died in a war with the highest respect and always will, even my dad, regardless of what he turned into.
So, before you spout any useless drivel and rubbish, think about where you are posting and what you are posting.
I cannot print what I think of that comment!Quote:
Originally Posted by SammEl
How about HER husband and parents, or HER husband and children, or HIS wife and children. You seem to forget it's not just young men in the military.Quote:
Originally Posted by SammEl
Unlike you I have a lot of respect for those people who put their lives on the line to defend and serve our country, maybe you should try it, although you are more than likely a "what's in it for me" vain little xyz who has no compassion for another human being.
I know I probably couldn't do it, and for them to do it for as long as they have done I deeply respect. I'm very much against the war but I'm not against the troops.
IIRC, they do forensics on them to identify who's making them and get any clues on where the factory might be located.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay
Afghanistan is NOT a war, see the difference?Quote:
Originally Posted by Disturbedguy
Going to a REAL war is totally different, you are actually fighting to save your country, and you have a chance of winning if you have better tactics and men on the battlefield. Iraq and Afghanistan are not wars and never will be wars, they are just conflicts that have been caused because of us, Iraq was one of the biggest and pointless conflicts of all time, and the world has not learnt anything from Russia being in Afghanistan.
I never said I didn't respect what he does, as a person, on a **** wage, doing that work, it's nasty; but quote me stating that and I'll send my bank balance to you.
Do I support what they are doing out there though? No
Finley, we are not speaking about a women here though, are we?
And if anyone wants to speak their mind on my comment, PM me with it, if it makes you feel better.
Spell my name correctly you waste of space, it's not exactly difficult, it's there a number of times.Quote:
Originally Posted by SammEl
We are talking about military personnel risking their lives, man or woman, old or young, black or white it doesn't make a difference. They are still ordinary people doing extraordinary things on a daily basis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SammEl
You sir, need to GTFO....
Our borders have been attacked, therefore we are defending out country.
And that's quite enough of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by finlay666
We have rules about insulting other members, and that crosses them.
Debate this politely, people, or there are going to be some suspensions.
I know it's emotive. So much more reason to keep it polite, or the actual debate gets lost in the flame war.
Show me once, when a Taliban personal has attacked the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael316
Most terrorist attacks come from within, it's the easist way, and has been proved many times by the IRA in the past.
Finly, Finlay, Finfish - Is that the only way you can attack what I am saying?
O, mayb I shud speak leik this tu u when we tlk thn?
Hmmm, let me think..Quote:
Originally Posted by SammEl
The bombings in London? The destruction of the Trade Centre? Carried out by muslims radicalised by Taliban teachings??
As for the IRA? WTF? How can you even compare the two sides, the IRA were fighting to free their country from British occupancy, the Taliban however are fighting to enforce their religious beliefs on the entire world.
How old are you BTW??
So by your reasoning these guys are there for FUN???Quote:
Originally Posted by SammEl
http://totallycoolpix.com/2010/03/the-outpost/
To be honest, any time our armed forces go out and put THEIR lives on the line, it is a war in my eyes.
Just because its being classified by some as a "conflict" doesnt hide what it really is.
I think it's very rude to not address someone correctly, it shows laziness and a lack of regard, it's not like its difficult to highlight, copy and paste a usernameQuote:
Originally Posted by Saracen
Any man or woman who would join the army, knowing the full amount of dangers and risks, to protect our country deserves my complete respect. It's completely disgusting that some people on this forum would go as far to say that the work they are doing day in and day out is pointless. Is it pointless risking your own life to save others? SammEL, I doubt you could even comprehend how difficult it is to spend each day doing a job which could very well kill you. What gives you the right to just wave away everything that they are doing? They have REAL courage. That statement about just leaving the army and going to prison is just plain moronic.
I'm not getting into the flame war that is likely to ensue, but a few points.Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael316
1) The reason we started the whole war on terror (which, regardless of my feelings about how brave the people we send to war are, I deeply disapprove of) gubbins was because of the WTC bombings. And to be pedantic that was not within our borders. We went to war to help the Americans, as far as I understand it. Then there was the whole kerfuffle with WMDs, so a couple of years after 9/11 we went to war in Iraq too. And we did so with considerable outcry from the majority of the British public.
2) The London bombings were motivated through the fact that we were at war in Iraq as far as evidence has shown. i.e. we're certainly not in a war because of them. Had we claimed neutrality and not gone to war, maybe they might not have happened. That's not saying that I think the people who did it were justified - on the contrary I think they were sadly misinformed. I'm certainly not enough of a strategist to play the "what-if" game.
I think the Lockerbie bombing was the nearest thing we've had to a terrorist attack in recent decades (besides 7/7). It essentially boiled down to "things the US did that we don't like". Interestingly it was an attack on the US that had collateral in the UK. Defining what terrorism is seems to suggest that any use of fear as a method of encouraging someone to do what you want - this would certainly incriminate the Real IRA as terrorists (they are classified as such by the US and UK governments). Subtle difference. The IRA is/was disbanded and wasn't exactly a terrorist organisation, they were a guerilla movement.
And please, don't tar all groups with the same brush. The Taleban are a Sunni movement that were in charge of Afghanistan. Al-Qaeda are a jihadist (also Sunni) movement. Key difference, the Taleban are/were essentially a national organisation who will fight using conventional military means whereas Al-Qaeda are a global terrorist organisation.
I'll admit that my sources are Wikipedia, having little else and little more time to look things up. But I trust locked articles enough for forum debate!
(this isn't totally directed at you azrael, but a general nod at some of the argument rationales that people are throwing around)
That is true, and the risks are well known. However, these two men showed bravery above the standard call of duty in deliberately placing their lives at risk for the immediate benefit of others. The medal recognizes this factQuote:
Originally Posted by SammEl
That is a bit like saying that a funeral is pointless, as the person it is about doesn't care one way or another, or that a GCSE, A level or degree is 'just a piece of paper'. It is what it represents that is important - and I hope that for Mrs Schmid, it will bring some comfort as a tangible reminder that her husband died saving the lives of others.Quote:
Originally Posted by SammEl
No, it can't, but you could say the same about someone killed in a traffic accident. As I said above, I hope that the fact that Sgt Schmid died in the service of others might be a source of comfort to his widow.Quote:
Originally Posted by SammEl
Yes - most IEDs are countered after inspection by a remote controlled vehicle, and subsequently destroyed by explosive, safely. In this case, those tools weren't immediately available, and there were other injured men to be rescued. Rather than wait for the equipment, the men used basic skills to locate the devices. That was the exceptional courage aspect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay
In general terms an IED (which can be read as an "Improvised-explosive device" or "Improvised explosive-device" )is, in these situations nothing more (or less) than an anti-personnel (or anti-vehicle) land mine. However conventional military munitions are mass manufactured, and made to standard pattern, so while they are still dangerous, their inner workings may be known about, giving ways in which they may be disarmed if they cannot be destroyed where they lie. And military/commercially manufactured explosives and minitions are safe (in the sense that they will not detonate until they are intended to).
An IED, using a less stable improvised explosive, and/or and improvised and non standard method of construction, is an even more dangerous device. Each one is potentially unique (even though they may be built to a standard pattern) so that manual disarming is even more dangerous. Another factor in the award of the medal.
As to the medal itself, the highest order of award is the Victoria Cross, institued after the Crimean War to recognise "conspicuous Acts of gallantry" in the face of the enemy. The last recipient was Corporal Beharry, who drove his vehicle in the face of enemy fire, again to rescue fallen comrades. The pre4vious recipient was Colonel 'H' Jones, who was killed attacking and disabling a machine gun post in the Falklands conflict, and lost his own life in the process, along with Sgt McKay.
The George Cross is primarily a civilian medal of equal precedence to the Victoria Cross, and was instituted in 1940. The George Medal, instituted at the same time, is one level lower in precedence, and again, although primarily a civilan award, both can be (and have been) awarded to military personnel.
The fact remains that the two men were awarded it for acts of courage and bravery above that expected in the normal course of their duties.
As soon as I read the first post in this thread, I just knew it'd be troll fodder.
As for it being a legitimate opinion SammEl, I disagree with a some opinions on here some times, but at least I respect their opinions. You saying that you laughed out loud at it though either makes you a sociopath or a troll.
Either way, I offer my sympathies to the people you converse with on a daily basis.
Words cannot describe the pride I have knowing that these men (and countless others like them) give and risk their lives daily for us.
SammEl its because of men like these that you can have the freedom to say and do what you want, for that reason alone you should show them respect.
Quote me saying I don't respect them and I'll put my hands up and say that was a mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaddAussie
Oh, I respect them for what they do no doubt, but I do not agree with the reason they are out there, and they know the risks that they are putting themselves in the second their feet touch the Afghan sand. Many of them do not want to be out there, period, so why don't they leave the Army? Spend a year in Prison here, but at least you are alive and not on the Taliban kill list which they just love out there.
I just state the fact that they where not forced into the Army or Afghanistan, but chose to join the Army, so what I feel for the old time soldiers (and my Dad infact), who where forced into the Army, that for me is a totally different situation.
You can kill 1000 Taliban, but 1 British fatality beats all those deaths, and they know it.
Being in Afghanistan does not help me, oh you can read what you like, the whole reason we are there is to try and free the strongholds, "mini states" that are controlled by the Taliban, if we left tomorrow, I doubt there would be a change in Terror attacks that people are planning most likely every single day of the week.
The amount of attacks stopped by the UK Government in this country I can assure will never leave the M15 database, you need to scare your citizens a little and release some information on possible attacks stopped, by if you go too far, the public will lose all trust in you.
In my opinion, some silly medal is all they can offer to the families? Heh, that makes me laugh, because if they where actually out there for a specific reason and died, it'd be a different story.
Same with the soldiers who died in Iraq, they died for a pointless reason.
Get lost is all I have to say to someone with views like that.
Complete disrespect for our armed forces.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SammEl
They are out there for a specific reason, did you not know. All the 9/11 bombers went through training camps in Afghanistan. And so did half the Islamic terrorists around the world.
If we left now, the Taliban, mostly now not from Afghanistan would return and reopen the training camps.
It's not about offering a medal to the families, its' the act of personal bravery it represents. And the families are extremely proud of that fact.
They are out in Afghanistan, and we still can't find places that they know exist, if you do not know how Afghanistan looks in regards to mountains and terrain, plus all the underground passages available to the terror networks, it's an utter hell hole, and has been for many many years, and unless they send out a mass amount of troops or nuke the damn place, it's going to be operating anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy3536
And there are many other places around the world they can set up training camp if somehow we find out their locations.
Terrorists are too widespread, trying to control a few parts of a country aint gonna do anything.
:stupid:Quote:
Originally Posted by SammEl
Although, Im not...
We arn't there trying to control the country you doof...
We are there attempting to remove the taliban, who are a major influence in radicalising young muslim men into the "cause".
The whole thing is about trying to stop those who have an agenda based on a twisted version of the Qur'an, a version they seem to think commends the taking of life.
I have no issue with Muslims, or the Qur'an, I DO have an issue with thnose who take a religious text and twist it to their own ends, then use it to turn good men against their fellow human beings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael316
top top post... a member since 2004.. and 57 posts... glad to see you here again bud :) and thanks for joining in :)
Well, thanks. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak33
Yup, been here since '04 and only recently "de lurked".
I assume, this was a sarcastic post.... ;) ...see you at the next lan.
Your the first person, who I have read that from on a public forum, and it's spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael316
What background are you from? from your member's name I'm guessing you are a Muslim or have family that are, because to be honest, I wouldn't expect that kind of post from a person unless they are associated with the Qur'an in one way or another.
:)
You'd be surprised. The Theist vs Atheist thread a while back was pretty heated...
You have to be a Muslim to have nothing against Muslims? Are you for real?
I am a 38 year old white male, ex forces (territorial), former Christian, now Pagan.Quote:
Originally Posted by SammEl
ALL religious texts should be treated with respect.
I'm Agnostic and generally despise everyone equally until they show they are worthy of trust/respect.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty-hodgson
Az...twisting any religious text.... like one of the many offshoots of Christianity? ;)
Dammit this tangent makes me want to watch Dogma now
Don't agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael316
People's right to believe in what they choose to believe in, and act accordingly provided it does no harm to others, should be respected, just as people's right to believe in no religion at all should.
I respect people's right to believe in the religious text they believe in, but I reserve my right to believe that most or all of them are, however well-meaning, utter drivel.
As soon as someone of a religious persuasion can demonstrate and prove to me that their text actually is the word and/or will of their God, I'll treat it with the respect that that would require. Until then, I'll continue to treat it with the same degree of respect as I treat everything from Dante's Inferno to the Wind in the Willows .... i.e. as a work of fiction, and of varying quality at that.
Going off topic, with a slight adjustment, I may well agree with that sentence: "I DO have an issue with those who take a religious text and then use it to turn good men against their fellow human beings".Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael316
I believe that we live in a complicated world, and sometime the end justify an imperfect mean. If someone has had such a terrible life that they lost all purpose/will to live, and faith turned out to be their fix, then I'd say that you could do a lot worse than that.
Needless to say, using said religious text to convince a person to cause harm is something I am utterly against.
Who said that?Quote:
Originally Posted by matty-hodgson
The reason I said that is quite simple, normally, people associate "terror" and "extremism" directly with the Qur'an and that, in itself, is just ignorance, so for someone like yourself to state that, you are a decent guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael316
There aren't that many Muslims that follow the Qur'an word by word, but they are out there. In everyday Muslim life phrases and parts of the Qur'an are twisted to suit their needs, it's not disrespect, but people want more freedom in modern life but at the same time, follow a high majority of what is written in the book.
For example, a pure Muslim, will not smoke, as it is looked down upon (don't state it isn't, my Father has studied the Qur'an at a high level, so please, no Google searches) - But you go to Egypt, and a high majority of Muslim Egyptians smoke Shisha and cigarettes every night. 50 or so years ago it was not an everyday occurrence, now it's part of everyday life for an Egyptian, it has just developed overtime in that way.
Many do not pray five times a day, and some have more than 4 wives, etc etc - But even that is now being twisted so you can marry more, and still be a true follower.
It's not just Terrorists that twist the book, it's also the normal Muslim who changes it.
Interesting though the religious discussion may be - this thread is/was about the courage of two men, in exceptional circumstances, one of whom died for the sake of his comrades.
By all means start a thread about religion if you feel the need, but please keep this thread focussed on the original post! Thanks
You seem to be missing the point SammEl. These guys join the army and request to be assigned to the Royal Logistic Corps bomb disposal. They do that because someone has to. OK We shouldn't be fighting foreigners just because they don't like Americans, but that's just this conflict; some of these guys also saw action in Ulster, where they saved the lives of British civilians under threat from murdering asshats.Quote:
Originally Posted by SammEL
My dad was army (battlin' REME) and I grew up around people whose dads did this stuff, and they were just quiet heroic decent men trying to reduce the horror of a bomb attack. My friend Sally lost her dad to an IRA bomb he was trying to defuse, but it had a radio trigger and they waited until he was close to it and set it off. Sally was devastated, but still understood the necessaity for people like her dad, Major Calladine, to risk their lives in order to try to prevent things like the Omagh bombing.
It may be sensible to head for the hills, but don't imply that Major Calladine, deceased, was any less than a real man, or that any of the bomb guys are.
There are many considerations, but the main one is getting forensic information from them, so that they can track them to a sourc and cut off the source.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay
Another is that they are often daisy-chained, so blowing one up will trigger the others, potentially blowing up somone standing next to one. If you read that article, one of the guys disabled 7 linked bombs. Blow up one and you have the other 6 going off somwhere else.
In some case the IED is military ordnance, like a 500lb bomb. Blow one of those up and you destroy everything for quite a distance and scatter hot debris over an even wider area.
While I was in Iran the US army blew up an old bomb on the outskirts of Dezful, without realizing that it was just the visible part of a cache. The resulting explosion killed the bomb disposal crew, destroyed their truck and damaged homes nearby.
It is focussed on the original matter, we've gone off on a slight tangent as to why they're out there in the first place and the fact that their utterly ridiculous religion gets thousands of people killed.Quote:
Originally Posted by peterb
My point exactly - off topicQuote:
Originally Posted by matty-hodgson
Which is not directly relevant act of bravery itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by matty-hodgson