Fun on the drive to work

This is a true story..and the fact i'm writing it shows that i'm still working hard even when i've got to work hehe.

Lets set the scene a little. Its a weekday morning (could be any, lets pick today), in the Manchester suburubs. I'm driving towards the motorway - a fun little not-quite-round-but-still-in-a-loop one called the M60. Happily listening to someone (in this case Jack Straw) getting metaphorically beaten up on the today programme. Its 8am on a cold morning (not that it matters), and i've got a whole hour to do the 30 min trip to work..so i'll get there early no rush.

I approach the motorway, and after a little bit of a queue to get on (but hey we're british, we're good at queuing), I make it. Whoohoo..greeted by the usual 3 lanes of traffic. Lane 1 (old term: the slow lane), full of trucks, timid people and also those lucky enough to be heading off the motorway at the next junction. Average speed around 40-50mph. Lane 2 (old term: the middle lane), as usual at this time this lane seems to have a fixed speed limit of 60mph..no one ever goes any faster than that for fear of using too much fuel (or whatever the reason, I don't get it). And there we have the 3rd lane (aka: the "fast" lane). Here there is a mix of people doing 70 (as they should) and a bunch of predominately audi's and BMWs thinking its an auto-bahn before the Germans realised it was a stupid idea.

I'm in no rush, but into the "fast" lane I pop, at least I can maintain a consistent speed there. So i'm happily driving along, keeping the needle at 72mph (and the satnav saying 70..who says car speedo's are inaccurate :) ) and spend the next 30 min chuckling as BMW after Audi after BMW appears right up my backside, each one of them blaring the horn, swearing (with their fingers..no doubt screaming it too) as the try to speed their way to an early grave or a speeding ticket. I'm saving them money, either in a ticket or at least in fuel, but they are not at all grateful. Who knows I could be saving their lives..and all while having a bit of fun myself. I'd pull into the middle lane if I could, but the traffic there is going too slow..so what can I do but stay there, at 70 (72 incidicated), safe in the knowledge that i'm safeguarding the world from a few little idiots who think its safe to drive at stupid speeds.

I only wish I had one of those signs like the police do, where you can write things for the car behind to read..oh how much more i'd love my trip to work then!

(note some of the above is really quite tongue in cheek, I'm not really saving the world etc, just annoying a few bad drivers out there..but my gosh its fun! Oh and I know that approx 50% of readers will hate me for all of the above, but I don't care..speeding kills. End of story.)


EDIT: to stop people getting too angry..i've moved this part of a later post up here:

"1) I do pull over when theres a gap in the middle lane and people there are not driving at 50/60mph..i'm not stupid enough to sit in the right hand lane when there is space to be on one of the middle/left lanes. If there is no space then I am overtaking..which is perfectly justified IMO."

great fun until one whacks you up the arse and puts you in a wheel chair ;)

it wont be so funny then.

he owns a mac, enough said.

Oh dear, Government brainwashing has appeared to work.


Speed Kills. Does it ****! As one commentator (may have been Jeremy Clarkson) once said, "It's not the speed that kills you, it's the sudden stop."

And I dare say it would not only be BMW drivers who get annoyed with your antics in the outside lane. Highway code says keep left on a motorway, so at the end of the overtaking manoeuvre you should be moving into the inside lanes - this is not America where you can pick a lane willy-nilly and stay there driving at whichever speed you decide you want to do that day. So you could be done for driving without due care and attention, especially if behind the irate BMW/Audi drivers, there is a Police/Fire/Ambulance vehicle trying to make progress. Enjoy that chat when it comes round, won't you? Or alternatively, the fact the ambulance couldn't get to a family member at the time they needed it because some self righteous halfwit thought it was their job to enforce the law?

I've got to say, this attitude really, really grinds with me - and far more than any middle lane moron or half awake pensioner behind the wheel ever could. Go get some driver training from the IAM or RoSPA, and see what they think of it....

have to say i'm a little surprised by the attitude of these first few replies..let me clarify a few things i obviously didn't make clear enough.

1) I do pull over when theres a gap in the middle lane and people there are not driving at 50/60mph..i'm not stupid enough to sit in the right hand lane when there is space to be on one of the middle/left lanes. If there is no space then I am overtaking..which is perfectly justified IMO.

2) The above was written very much in a jokey way as it really pisses me off the number of people who think its perfectly OK to break the laws that are in place. If you dont agree with them then fine but that doesnt mean you can just flaunt them and put peoples lives at risk

3) the majority of these prats are not just going at 80 or 75..they really belt it down at 90+ and you can't seriously tell me thats safe.

4) Speed cameras obviously dont work at the moment (although there are plans to put them on the whole of the M60 and other motorways..I applaud that however unfeasible it is. What else can we do to stop these idiots then? I realise some of you don't seem to think its stupid to try speeding down the motorway much faster than the majority of users so you wont get that discussion..but meh cant do anything about that.


@ TheAnimus..OT but I do indeed, however i don't run OSX, the Mac Pro was just an absolute bargain at the time..1/2 the price of an equivalent self build at the time:)

A fair point dave, as I think spud's attitude might be a little poorly thought out here. But regardless of that, there is this: "I'd pull into the middle lane if I could, but the traffic there is going too slow..so what can I do but stay there, at 70 (72 incidicated)". He's doing the speed limit, which regardless of our opinions on it, is the legal limit, and he says it isn't safe to merge into the middle lane, so he has every right to carry on doing what he's doing without being intimidated by drivers behind him with a different opinion of how the roads work.

To be honest I found your first post annoying - I really hate people that think it's okay to sit in the outside lane at 70mph just because is it the legal maximum speed limit - it's not your job to police the speeds people are doing. I would suggest more accidents are caused by drivers winding other drivers up than people speeding.

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Originally Posted by Spud1

1) I do pull over when theres a gap in the middle lane and people there are not driving at 50/60mph..i'm not stupid enough to sit in the right hand lane when there is space to be on one of the middle/left lanes. If there is no space then I am overtaking..which is perfectly justified IMO.

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However I pacified a little when you said you do move over into the middle lane when there's a gap.

As long as you moved over when you could, that's fine. Though taking enjoyment in preventing other people from breaking the law is a bit like playing police - we're allowed to do it in some circumstances but it's best not to in others.

While it's unlikely, there are a few legal reasons why one can exceed the speed limit, and I know that in that situational I'd not be in the correct position to make that judgement for other people.

So in conclusion, we need 5 lane motorways

Lane 1 for people coming off the motorway, milk floats and lost pedestrians
Lane 2 for people who think 60 is the limit, have a fear of driving, or drive old Skodas
Lane 3 for people who would like to obey traffic laws and drive at 70, like our dear Spudster here
Lane 4 for people who would like to overtake Spudster and then move back into lane 3 to also travel at 70
Lane 5 for people who don't mind risk of death, want to show off their new 5.5L engine, or are very, very late

Easy... and it'd only cost a few billion.

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Originally Posted by snootyjim

So in conclusion, we need 5 lane motorways

Lane 1 for people coming off the motorway, milk floats and lost pedestrians
Lane 2 for people who think 60 is the limit, have a fear of driving, or drive old Skodas
Lane 3 for people who would like to obey traffic laws and drive at 70, like our dear Spudster here
Lane 4 for people who would like to overtake Spudster and then move back into lane 3 to also travel at 70
Lane 5 for people who don't mind risk of death, want to show off their new 5.5L engine, or are very, very late

Easy... and it'd only cost a few billion.

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Only quashed by the fact that as soon as some people see more than three lanes their brains turn to mush and they are only happy driving in lane 4, regardless of how empty the other lanes are. M25/expanded M1 users, I'm looking at you...

The problem is due to the fact that the same ignorant people that you find ambling along our pavements (i.e. stopping abruptly, sporadically changing direction and generally getting in the way), are exactly the same on the roads.

They are also so ignorant that it doesn't make the blind bit of difference if you try and educate in driving etiquette they still continue to do it the same way....

I remember when I took my driving test (over 10 years ago now) my instructor told me to overtake something on t he dual carriageway if I got the chance just to show I could do it. So there I was on my test, tootling up the dual carriageway on the left hand lane and I come up behind a van doing 55ish. So I decide to overtake, and of course the guy in the van decides to speed up right when I got alongside. So I could complete my maneuver I broke the speed limit by about 10mph so I could get a way in front of him. Driving instructor passed me with only a couple of minors. I think in some situations you have to use some common sense and do what's most safe. I think sitting in the outside lane at 70 is just going to frustrate people and it would certainly frustrate me if I was sat behind you. Therefore I don't think your one man crusade is doing anybody any favours, sorry man.

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Originally Posted by kalniel

Only quashed by the fact that as soon as some people see more than three lanes their brains turn to mush and they are only happy driving in lane 4, regardless of how empty the other lanes are. M25/expanded M1 users, I'm looking at you...

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Hmmm, fair point. In that case, I think we should make lane 4 ridged. Not little ridges, so that the car gives you a gentle massage, more like a succession of speed humps so that spending more than 1 minute continuously in the fourth lane would give you serious spinal injuries. It'll add a few million to the final bill, but it's important to get it right.

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Originally Posted by snootyjim

Hmmm, fair point. In that case, I think we should make lane 4 ridged. Not little ridges, so that the car gives you a gentle massage, more like a succession of speed humps so that spending more than 1 minute continuously in the fourth lane would give you serious spinal injuries. It'll add a few million to the final bill, but it's important to get it right.

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Whilst we're doing this upgrade, any change we could put cameras on roundabouts that check whether people indicate when approaching them? If they don't a sign would flash up saying:

'No indicators? You're a dick.'

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Originally Posted by Spud1

@ TheAnimus..OT but I do indeed, however i don't run OSX, the Mac Pro was just an absolute bargain at the time..1/2 the price of an equivalent self build at the time:)

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Ah thats ok then, I'm back on your side now, so I'll go report Dave's *'d out swear word post :)

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Originally Posted by G4Z

I think sitting in the outside lane at 70 is just going to frustrate people and it would certainly frustrate me if I was sat behind you. Therefore I don't think your one man crusade is doing anybody any favours, sorry man.

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I know in reality its going to do *nothing* except frustrate people..too many of my attempts at "one man crusades" are like that and some days it really makes me wish I could go against my principles of a free society..there is always a part of me that thinks some totalitarian concepts are actually useful..like the number of times I wish I could report people for speeding in stupid ways, having illegal plates, holding their phones to their ears while driving (and usually speeding at the same time)...but having that ability would crush society and go against everything I believe in..go figure lol. Annoying..but hey kinda proves that I can exercise Doublethink ;)

I must say that the original post gets me as well, you may well move over when it is safe to do so but if I am in the outside lane I am generally doing 80.

It may not be the legal limit but no copper will pull you over for it and generally that is the speed that the lane moves at. By sitting there doing 70 all you are going to do is irritate me, causing me to lose concentration on driving, maybe making me drive more erratically/aggressively and that could lead to more accidents.

If I had someone bearing down on me I would try and find the nearest gap and let them through, even if that means speading up a little bit.

IMHO a lot of accidents are caused by frustration of other drivers, if everyone was a little more observant and considerate instead of doing what they feel is right for them then the roads would be a better and safer place.

*sigh* speeding doesnt kill, I feel arguing this is pointless, as you've clearly made your mind up, and are going to continue keeping those narrow-minded blinkers on.

It is NOT up to you, to Police the roads, or try and enforce any laws that are in affect. Are you trained/qualified to do so . . .NO. So stop playing Mr Lawenforcement.

I also drive around the speed limit too, it amuses me some people get so upset. Its a wonder that such a little thing I do can have so much impact on their pathetic lives and its causing them so much stress. As I said to my girlfriend who use to be intimidated by people like that after she passed, give them no heed, they are behind you, you are in front, that's their problem not yours.

My Favourette sport is accelerating fast from traffic lights, right up to the speed limit then hanging at the right speed, once got a boy racer to have a go... I had seen the police car behind me, I accelerated not as hard as sometimes, boy racer pulled away, nice little white car popped out from behind me and the blue lights went on.... Sweet!

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Originally Posted by snootyjim

So in conclusion, we need 5 lane motorways

Lane 1 for foreign truck drivers doing 65
Lane 2 for foreign truck drivers slowly overtaking the ones in lane 1
Lane 3 for foreign truck drivers slowly overtaking the ones in lane 1 and 2
Lane 4 for foreign truck drivers slowly overtaking the ones in lane 1, 2 and 3
Lane 5 for everyone else trying to pass all the trucks, having to do so at 85-90 to get past safely/get to the junction you need to take/just to clear the lane so everyone else can get past as well.

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I've corrected your suggestion.

Or if it's the M25:

Lane 1 - Car park.
Lane 2 - Car park.
Lane 3 - Car park.
Lane 4 - Car park.
Lane 5 - Car park.

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Originally Posted by Salazaar

I've corrected your suggestion.

Or if it's the M25:

Lane 1 - Car park.
Lane 2 - Car park.
Lane 3 - Car park.
Lane 4 - Car park.
Lane 5 - Car park.

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Nah, I've already sorted the M25. What we're going to do, is build a ringroad around the M25 called the M25(2). As for your suggestion, I'm at a loss. Do you think we need 10 lanes?

We could just concrete over all of the countryside and let people drive wherever they want...!

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Originally Posted by Salazaar

We could just concrete over all of the countryside and let people drive wherever they want...!

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Don't need to do that! That is what 4x4's are for! :D

What we need are hovercars. Or something like this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/8543202.stm

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Originally Posted by oolon

I also drive around the speed limit too, it amuses me some people get so upset. Its a wonder that such a little thing I do can have so much impact on their pathetic lives and its causing them so much stress.

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This isn't the problem, by all means drive to the speed limit. However if there's someone behind you obviously wanting to get past you and there's room in the middle lane....

MOVE INTO THE MIDDLE LANE.

Rant over.

Replace airbags with pointy sticks :)

Increase the danger to the driver from a little accident and hey presto, everyone driving nice and safely and courteously.

On a 3 lane motorway you should always drive in the left-hand lane. If you are overtaking a number of slower-moving vehicles, you should return to the left-hand lane as soon as you are safely past. There is no such thing as a slow or fast lane only overtaking lanes and hogging the right hand lane really isn't the way to drive properly.

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Originally Posted by Big Leon

This isn't the problem, by all means drive to the speed limit. However if there's someone behind you obviously wanting to get past you and there's room in the middle lane....

MOVE INTO THE MIDDLE LANE.

Rant over.

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Err I do, if there is space for me and the traffic is moving at a reasonable speed in that lane, otherwise I am driving at the speed limit why should I move over for you to break the law? Particularly if you flash your lights and beep your horn, I will probably do a bit of breaking instead for those people who choice to sit on my bumper.

There's no slow/middle/fast lane on a motorway,
just one inside lane, and 2 overtaking lanes.

I dislike "middle lane hoggers" (when there's no inside lane traffic) as much as "outside lane hoggers" who don't pull in after overtaking.

On busy motorways, it does turn into 3 separate speed zones, but still you should avoid being in the outside lane for long IMO, as accidents and tailbacks are caused by by drivers suddenly braking - being able to move lane to avoid braking or a collision is safer.

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Originally Posted by oolon

Err I do, if there is space for me and the traffic is moving at a reasonable speed in that lane, otherwise I am driving at the speed limit why should I move over for you to break the law? Particularly if you flash your lights and beep your horn, I will probably do a bit of breaking instead for those people who choice to sit on my bumper.

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Cos the highway code says so...

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264
You should always drive in the left-hand lane when the road ahead is clear. If you are overtaking a number of slower-moving vehicles, you should return to the left-hand lane as soon as you are safely past. Slow-moving or speed-restricted vehicles should always remain in the left-hand lane of the carriageway unless overtaking. You MUST NOT drive on the hard shoulder except in an emergency or if directed to do so by the police, HA traffic officers in uniform or by signs.


[Laws MT(E&W)R regs 5, 9 & 16(1)(a), MT(S)R regs 4, 8 & 14(1)(a), and RTA 1988, sects 35 & 186, as amended by TMA 2004 sect 6]

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Originally Posted by oolon

why should I move over for you to break the law? Particularly if you flash your lights and beep your horn, I will probably do a bit of breaking instead for those people who choice to sit on my bumper.

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So your 70mph stance is obviously not about safety then.

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Originally Posted by Salazaar

Cos the highway code says so...

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I am passing vehicles to the left of me who are slower than me... as fast as I legally can (speed limit)... I pull over if there is a gap... Whats the problem...? oh right yes you want to drive faster than the speed limit. As I said before... your problem not mine, and normally I am doing more like 75 so on the wrong side too. Yes touching the breaks is about my safety just enough to get the person to move back a bit. Does not mean I rapidly slow my car which would be dangerous.

Anyway my point was I surprises me how wound up people get.. and this thread really is proving it. Next time I suggest people leave earlier so they don't have to stress about being late.

If you're passing slower moving vehicles then it's fine, but you've got to remember to pull back in once you've complete maneuver.

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Originally Posted by Big Leon

Whilst we're doing this upgrade, any change we could put cameras on roundabouts that check whether people indicate when approaching them? If they don't a sign would flash up saying:

'No indicators? You're a dick.'

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What if you are going straight on? You don't indicate left or right.... or should I put my hazards on?

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Originally Posted by Salazaar

If you're passing slower moving vehicles then it's fine, but you've got to remember to pull back in once you've complete maneuver.

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Yes I do exactly that, what I don't like is someone driving my the back of my car at 90+, beeping the horn flashing the lights to get by me. Just because I slowing them down while I (legally) over take, why should I have to speed to over take cars just to please them?

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Replace airbags with pointy sticks

Increase the danger to the driver from a little accident and hey presto, everyone driving nice and safely and courteously.

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Hehe just make sure that you don't make the mistake of putting a child-seat in an air-bag fitted car then!

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Originally Posted by finlay666

What if you are going straight on? You don't indicate left or right.... or should I put my hazards on?

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I was thinking that cars should just have an inbuilt system... if you're approaching a junction, and you don't indicate, the car will prevent you from turning either left or right. That would be good :)

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Originally Posted by oolon

My Favourite sport is accelerating fast from traffic lights, right up to the speed limit then hanging at the right speed

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Sudden unexpected changes in speed or acceleration is dangerous driving in my book.:rolleyes:

You sound like you will be happy and smug the day someone crashes into the back of you ?! :surprised:

Completely disagree with spud on this. There are numerous reasons why people are in a rush, important and costly reasons.

Best example of this was when I was dropping of my uncle at Stansted airport just before Christmas. I accidently got off the wrong exit at a roundabout and was heading towards Cambridge – no problem I thought, I would just get off at the next exit – little did I know the next exit was actually in Cambridge! In a state of controlled panic, thinking he would miss his £400 flight and miss the funeral I proceed to put my foot down reaching speeds on average of 90 mph and thankfully he made it to the check in just as they were closing.

Had I been slowed down by a self-righteous idiot who was either too scared or unskilled enough to control a vehicle at over 70mph many people would have been extremely cheesed off.

I’ve driven in other foreign countries such as Spain, Portugal, France and Germany, there speed limits are much like ours, apart from it being in KPH, but I’ve always found them to be constantly driving much faster, well over 100mph in some cases, especially in Portugal, which is probably why they have one of the highest mortality rates for car crashes.

Our 70mph limit is safe, but I would honestly go as far as say that raising it to 80mph wouldn’t increase fatal car accidents, the majority of people know what they feel comfortable with, I certainly don’t feel comfortable when driving at 100mph, so even if the limit was 120mph, I wouldn’t be driving at the that speed limit, but then I wouldn’t be impeding people from doing it, its not my job.

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Originally Posted by mikerr

Sudden unexpected changes in speed or acceleration is dangerous driving in my book.:rolleyes:

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Change in speed, sure. But change in acceleration? That's not dangerous driving, or we're all guilty of it every time we change gear.

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Hehe just make sure that you don't make the mistake of putting a child-seat in an air-bag fitted car then!

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I'd be woried if my 6 month old attempted to drive, yeah I meant driver's airbag!

Seriously though, why do people change so much behind the wheel? It's not like that walking down the street or queuing in a pub, or even pushing trolley round a supermarket.

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Originally Posted by oolon

Next time I suggest people leave earlier so they don't have to stress about being late.

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Thats not an option available to all of us.

I *suggest* to you, that you get off that high horse, and stop trying to preach to the rest of us.

^^ Typical BMW driver.....










Shame. I agree with him though :)

TBH we are all going to be restricted to 55mph or something soon because of the government, and because petrol is going up massively.

I hate middle lane hoggers. Doesn't bother me people driving at 90 or whatever as they zoom by. I am considerate for those in a rush, if I need to overtake I do and then go back into the middle or left lane. If I see someone coming up behind me fast I'll try and pull in for them if its safe and let them get annoyed at the person in front of me rather than me!

Sorting the motorways is actually easy - we just need 2 things:

1) ban lorries from the motorways at all. Move all long distance freight hauling onto rail or canals. We invented the damn things after all, why don't we use them ;)

2) Have automated lasers mounted on cameras that blow out the tyres of anyone driving in an outer lane when the lane inside them is clear. Sorted.

I dislike getting into the outside lane for overtaking when there are idiots pelting down at 90+, but I get even more frustrated when I'm driving up the inside lane at 70mph and some idiot is sitting in the middle lane at ~ 65. You can almost guarantee that there's going to be traffic going past you faster and then overtaking him, so you can't pull out to overtake properly, which means you're left with the option of slowing down and waiting for him to stop being a <insert profanity of your choice> or overtaking on the inside. And you know that if you do sail past him, he'll spend the next 5 minutes swearing at you for undertaking despite that fact that he's driving at least as badly if not worse...

Oh, and there's no excuse for anyone to flash lights or beep horns at someone who is genuinely overtaking in the outside lane of a motorway at 70mph. I think that's where the resentment comes from - you're driving properly and some idiot comes down blaring horns and flashing lights and sitting 2 meters off your boot: it's funny, but I don't remember my driving instructor teaching me that bit... ;)

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Originally Posted by oolon

Err I do, if there is space for me and the traffic is moving at a reasonable speed in that lane, otherwise I am driving at the speed limit why should I move over for you to break the law? Particularly if you flash your lights and beep your horn, I will probably do a bit of breaking instead for those people who choice to sit on my bumper.

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Well I was going to respond in full to this but then I realised you're one of those ignorant people I was talking about earlier in the thread. It doesn't matter how many times people tell you, you're going to do it your own way anyway. Read my post I didn't mention anything about flashing lights or beeping, simply that you move into the middle lane after overtaking if it safe to do so.

Not complicated is it?

What's strange is that I rarely, if ever, get anyone sitting behind me flashing and beeping their horn (and believe me I do a lot of miles). If you do get a lot of people doing that to you, surely that says something about your driving?

I don't do anything special but I do pull in after overtaking.... Strange ;-)

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Originally Posted by rastamanblues

Thats not an option available to all of us.

I *suggest* to you, that you get off that high horse, and stop trying to preach to the rest of us.

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How is that option not available to all of us? Please explain as I don't understand. Do you have too little time to do a journey in a legal manner? Is the road to busy to complete the journey at the speed limit? Surely you know by now how long the trip should take so can adjust your plans? Or perhaps you feel that your time is more important that other peoples, so their journeys should take longer so yours can be shorter? Perhaps you have a young child that keeps you up all hours so you don't get much rest so you wanted a nice lie in?

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Originally Posted by Big Leon

Well I was going to respond in full to this but then I realised you're one of those ignorant people I was talking about earlier in the thread. It doesn't matter how many times people tell you, you're going to do it your own way anyway. Read my post I didn't mention anything about flashing lights or beeping, simply that you move into the middle lane after overtaking if it safe to do so.

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I didn't say you did flash your lights, I didn't say I sat in any line keeping time with any cars next to me... I am over taking too! Just not perhaps at the speed you might have liked me too. When I find I cannot overtake I try to slot into the line of traffic to the left of me. I have attacked no one on this thread, yet people think I am a monster for driving legally and not wishing to speed like they do. My point was people need to calm down getting to your destination is more important than when you get there.

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Originally Posted by Big Leon

I don't do anything special but I do pull in after overtaking.... Strange ;-)

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Did I say I didn't do that? I do as and when I can, if your overtaking 6 or 7 cars though, it does take a little while to get to the front of the queue. Perhaps I have just been driving longer than you, I have had aggressive drivers flashing lights behind me about 10 times. Not that common for the amount of driving I have done.

Actually I happen to know Rasta does circa 50k miles a year, up and down the motorways. So he not only deals with this behaviour every day, but to a greater extent than most of us manage in 4-5 years. That is every year....

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Originally Posted by Big Leon

Read my post I didn't mention anything about flashing lights or beeping, simply that you move into the middle lane after overtaking if it safe to do so.

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In that case I don't think any of the comments in this thread are aimed at you - unless of course you choose to sit within a car's length of someone at 70mph, which is just idiotic. Most of the problems with motorway driving are actually caused by the fact that no-one is willing to give an inch of road space to anyone else - mostly when you're overtaking you end up having to go past about 10 cars because no-one is leaving a large enough gap to pull back in to!

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Originally Posted by oolon

Irrelevant Rant

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I havent got time to reply to all of the above, if I get back in a reasonable time, I might address some of the points.

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Do you have too little time to do a journey in a legal manner

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This is of no concern to you, it is NOT up to you to decide, or Police other people during their day to day lives.

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Originally Posted by Salazaar

Cos the highway code says so...

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The highway code also says:

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260

When you can see well ahead and the road conditions are good, you should

* drive at a steady cruising speed which you and your vehicle can handle safely and is within the speed limit (see Rule 124)
* keep a safe distance from the vehicle in front and increase the gap on wet or icy roads, or in fog (see Rules 126 and 235)

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261

You MUST NOT exceed 70 mph (112 km/h), or the maximum speed limit permitted for your vehicle (see Rule 124). If a lower speed limit is in force, either permanently or temporarily, at road works for example, you MUST NOT exceed the lower limit. On some motorways, mandatory motorway signals (which display the speed within a red ring) are used to vary the maximum speed limit to improve traffic flow. You MUST NOT exceed this speed limit.

[Law RTRA sects 17, 86, 89 & sch 6]

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I also think somewhere in the Highway code it mentions who should be policing (there's a clue in this word) those rules..... ;-)

It is quite obvious to those with a little common sense that we have reached an 'agreed' speed limit of approximately 80 on the motorways. There is almost no way that you'll be done for doing 80; however, the culture of driving about 10mph too fast on the motorway is so ingrained that if the limit was officially changed to 80, everyone would adjust up to 90. It's a good old British compromise.

We have a working "stalemate" that almost everyone is happy with, except the 70mph crusaders who seem to think they know better than the police charged with keeping the roads safe.

I condemn the 'tailgating and flashing' antics of some drivers; but just as bad are the deliberate 'go-slow' and 'braking to annoy people' of others.

When I was 10 or so, I had a bad accident when staying with my aunt and uncle and was taken for surgery. My uncle had to rush up the motorway to my home and look after my little siblings, so my mother could then leave and rush back down to be with me. I'm very glad that the OP wasn't sitting on the motorway deliberately slowing them down, and that she managed to get to the hospital in time to be with her child for the surgery. Just because you may be incapable of driving safely at 90 doesn't mean that there aren't better drivers who can, in the appropriate conditions.

[QUOTE=snootyjim;1895538]So in conclusion, we need 5 lane motorways

Lane 1 for people coming off the motorway, milk floats and lost pedestrians
Lane 2 for people who think 60 is the limit, have a fear of driving, or drive old Skodas
Lane 3 for people who would like to obey traffic laws and drive at 70, like our dear Spudster here
Lane 4 for people who would like to overtake Spudster and then move back into lane 3 to also travel at 70
Lane 5 for people who don't mind risk of death, want to show off their new 5.5L engine, or are very, very late
QUOTE]

Lane 6 for people who want to turn right, crossing the other 6 lanes of oncoming traffic :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by rastamanblues

It is NOT up to you, to Police the roads, or try and enforce any laws that are in affect. Are you trained/qualified to do so . . .NO. So stop playing Mr Lawenforcement.

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I'm making this point against all of you who try to tell me that its not up to me to police the laws..not explicitly at you rastamanblues.

OK so that is a fair point - it is the police's job to enforce the laws and I won't argue with that explicitly.

On the same vein though, its not up to YOU to MAKE the laws. So all you people who seem to think that the "accepted" speed limit is 80, or that its perfectly OK for you to speed at 90+ just because your late and may lose some money etc, you have no more right to decide that its "OK" to do that than I do to drive at 70mph. The issue of whether 70mph is a fair speed for the law to state is totally separate, heck I am all for an 80mph limit but that is not what we have in place, so its irrelevant.

I'll also re-iterate that I, and oolon, and no doubt others who may agree with me (if there are any..) have said that we pull in after overtaking..but the thing is that on the motorways in the morning there usually just isn't the opportunity to do so without slowing down to 50 or 60..so therefore by staying in that lane until there is a chance to move in, we are just overtaking..perfectly legitimately and legally.

It's not us that are breaking the law, or causing problems, its the idiots trying to speed because they want to get to their destination a few minutes earlier.

I guess I should add something else that I find consistently. When I inevitably do pull in as I reach a part of the motorway with less traffic (just after Stockport junction for those locals), and these idiots race past me..in 90% of cases I see them again 5 minutes later at the exit junction..so their dangerous driving has got them what, a whole car length further than me? madness..

edit: oh and people DO get done for doing 80 on the motorways..my father is one of them! Sure its rare but it does happen..

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Originally Posted by Kata

... the 70mph crusaders who seem to think they know better than the police ...

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Actually, a lot of people simply don't feel safe driving much over 70mph. And, quite apart from anything else, it's the legal speed limit. Choosing to drive at the legal speed limit, and being annoyed by people who sit a car's length off your bumper when you do so, is not policing anything. I really don't get how people can think there's this concept of an "acceptable law breaking" as far as speeding goes. This country isn't run by consensus opinion (you can tell - it is was then we;d be a real democracy), so there is no "'agreed' speed limit" - there's a set one, and it is 70mph. Driving up someone's rear end because they're choosing to obey the speed limit while overtaking is both dumb and dangerous. Staying in an outer lane at 70mph just to spite people would also be dumb and dangerous, but I believe everyone who has commented in favour of the OP has categorically stated that they pull back in as soon as it is safe to do so. The people on the highest horse here seem to be the ones trying to claim they have an absolute right to break the speed limit and ignore safe driving distances if they want to.

Although I have to say that creating a forum thread based on an OP like this is a) asking for trouble, and b) disgustingly smug...

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Originally Posted by scaryjim

Actually, a lot of people simply don't feel safe driving much over 70mph. And, quite apart from anything else, it's the legal speed limit. Choosing to drive at the legal speed limit, and being annoyed by people who sit a car's length off your bumper when you do so, is not policing anything. I really don't get how people can think there's this concept of an "acceptable law breaking" as far as speeding goes. This country isn't run by consensus opinion (you can tell - it is was then we;d be a real democracy), so there is no "'agreed' speed limit" - there's a set one, and it is 70mph.

Although I have to say that creating a forum thread based on an OP like this is a) asking for trouble, and b) disgustingly smug...

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In a world where everything was black and white, and people were actually prosecuted for doing 75...I'd agree with you. But that's not the world we live in, and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of the situation I describe. Have you seen any police trying to enforce 70, anywhere, ever? We live in the world that exists, not in the 'idealistic' world that the hundreds of thousands of laws we have tries to create.

We agree on the tailgating issue, at least, and if the traffic doesn't allow you to pull in from the outside lane at 70, then fair enough; it's annoying, but I can't argue with it. But deliberately slowing down, or attempting to keep other drivers at or below 70 when you can avoid it? Peurile idiocy that is just as bad.

I absolutely hate people that flash their lights and beep their horns when they come up behind you at some ridiculous speed on the motorway. Just last week i was cruising up the M74 at around 90 or so when this thug came screaming up behind me making an awful noise and flashing his lights, and when i refused to go any faster or move in the cheeky swine tried to undertake me!!!, So i waited till he had got his nose out in front of mine and side swiped his rear end, sent the bugger spinning into a barrier and continued on my way.

Last i saw was 2 of them climbing out of the car, woulda made a great photograph, with them all lit up by that blue flashy light they had.

*rimshot*

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Originally Posted by Big Leon

Whilst we're doing this upgrade, any change we could put cameras on roundabouts that check whether people indicate when approaching them? If they don't a sign would flash up saying:

'No indicators? You're driving a BMW.'

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Fixed that for you.

I know the topic of conversation has moved on, but I just wanted to post this:

Whenever I see people say "speed kills" I'm always tempted to ask why, in that case, are all our motorways not 30mph?

Could it be that speed is a risk factor for car accidents, as are weather conditions, driver experience and fatigue, traffic levels, driver aggression (made worse by the 70mph in the outside lane - whether you agree with the right to do this or not) and many other risk factors (not least alcohol/cannabis etc).

I don't know the data, I'll freely admit that, but I would imagine absolute speed to be lower down on the list than many others on that list, probably with alcohol consumption, driver fatigue and driver experience coming near the top.

Surely the logical thing is a variable speed limit on every motorway with average speed check cameras - make it 40-50mph in rush hour in heavy rain when the traffic is locked up. Would probably make traffic move faster anyway, less 'accelerate-brake' driving for a starter. But for goodness sake realise that on an empty motorway in good weather at 3am 90+mph is perfectly safe - probably much safer than the aforementioned conditions when the limit is 50.

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Originally Posted by Alex

I know the topic of conversation has moved on, but I just wanted to post this:

Whenever I see people say "speed kills" I'm always tempted to ask why, in that case, are all our motorways not 30mph?

Could it be that speed is a risk factor for car accidents, as are weather conditions, driver experience and fatigue, traffic levels, driver aggression (made worse by the 70mph in the outside lane - whether you agree with the right to do this or not) and many other risk factors (not least alcohol/cannabis etc).

I don't know the data, I'll freely admit that, but I would imagine absolute speed to be lower down on the list than many others on that list, probably with alcohol consumption, driver fatigue and driver experience coming near the top.

Surely the logical thing is a variable speed limit on every motorway with average speed check cameras - make it 40-50mph in rush hour in heavy rain when the traffic is locked up. Would probably make traffic move faster anyway, less 'accelerate-brake' driving for a starter. But for goodness sake realise that on an empty motorway in good weather at 3am 90+mph is perfectly safe - probably much safer than the aforementioned conditions when the limit is 50.

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You make some excellent points, and I agree. "Inappropriate speed kills", sure; but you might just as well campaign with "Driving Kills" as "Speed Kills", and give up the motor car altogether. Just being alive is a risk; you can't eliminate every danger and still actually live life in a sensible manner!

Speed doesn't kill, attempting to prove the contrary is true is futile.

Lack of driving skill, awareness of the environment and situation, driving without care or attention and failure to maintain a safe braking distance is the danger is the cause of most accidents.

The only reason that 'speed causes over 9000 accidents' is because people driving too slowly are more likely to be involved in an accident due to other people not being aware of the speed they are travelling at.

I did quite a lot of miles when I worked in Reading and I found the dangerous drivers weren't the ones doing 80 or 90 in the outside lane overtaking.... it was the CLOG (central lane owners group) going along at 65 bumper to bumper and suddenly performing manoeuvres without indicating or checking their blind spot or if it is even safe to do so before changing lanes.

If the person behind you is right up your arse, it's their problem not yours, if you HAVE to brake suddenly for a legitimate reason (them being close enough to smell your farts is NOT a legit reason) and they hit you they are at fault.

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Originally Posted by finlay666

Speed doesn't kill, attempting to prove the contrary is true is futile.

Lack of driving skill, awareness of the environment and situation, driving without care or attention and failure to maintain a safe braking distance is the danger is the cause of most accidents.

The only reason that 'speed causes over 9000 accidents' is because people driving too slowly are more likely to be involved in an accident due to other people not being aware of the speed they are travelling at.

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To be fair, I don't think that driving too slow is responsible for nearly as many accidents as driving too fast; and certainly not as many serious ones. Just look at the insurance rates for young drivers; do you think they are the highest risk because they go too slow? :mrgreen: No, they go too fast for the circumstances; and this is very, very rarely on motorways; after all, they are designed for high speed! Local roads, however...

Try crashing into a wall at 30mph, 60mph and 90mph. See which does the most damage ;)

I won't argue that on a completely empty, straight road, in a modern card, 100mph is probably perfectly safe. But this thread is talking about people doing 90 - 100mph on a busy motorway where people who are driving at 70mph need to pull into the outside lane to overtake, because all inner lanes are travelling slower than that. In those circumstances, I'd say that was inappropriate speed...

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Originally Posted by Kata

To be fair, I don't think that driving too slow is responsible for nearly as many accidents as driving too fast; and certainly not as many serious ones. Just look at the insurance rates for young drivers; do you think they are the highest risk because they go too slow? :mrgreen: No, they go too fast for the circumstances; and this is very, very rarely on motorways; after all, they are designed for high speed! Local roads, however...

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No their rates are higher because they are less experienced and more likely to write off an expensive vehicle that isn't theirs. It's more down to not being able to control the car, not knowing how to react in a situation (sliding out of control, brakes locking etc)

Driving too slow doesn't cause accidents? Next time you go past a speed camera watch the number of people in front that slam the brakes on because they weren't paying attention. If you go into them it's still a speed related accident.

scaryjim: I would avoid the wall by leaving a suitable braking distance in front of me to react and take an evasive manoeuvre if required.

People seem to think that the speed limit on the Motorway is a "guideline" and think that it is perfectly acceptable to do whatever speed they like - even when warning signs, or roadwork speed limits are telling them differently. The fact is that you don't have that right, and quite frankly you're arrogant if you think you do. I you need to travel at 90mph to get where you're going, then you left too late - leave earlier!

60 | 65 | 70

Now imageine that this is the speed that the traffic is traveling at - it is very easy for cars to move between lanes as the traffic is traveling at speed very close to one another.

60 | 65 | 90

Now imagine that the traffic is traveling like so - the accident here is going to be caused when someone tries to overtake the car in the middle lane - why? because they have to try and increase their speed very quickly (an additional 25mph, as opposed to an additional 5) in order to try and match the traffic - it also works the other way around when people decide to leave exiting for their junction at the last minute - having to decelerate 25mph (most likely causing cars behind to the same), in order to join the flow of the middle lane. It also means that if someone pulls out in front of you, instead of having to slow down a bit, you have to slow down a lot, quickly! Which has a far higher chance of you losing control.

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Originally Posted by finlay666

Driving too slow doesn't cause accidents? Next time you go past a speed camera watch the number of people in front that slam the brakes on because they weren't paying attention. If you go into them it's still a speed related accident.

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Sorry, that's caused by people driving too fast ;) and then smacking on their brakes at the last moment when they spot the speed camera - that's the kind of thing that causes accidents! If they were doing the right speed they would have no need to brake ;)

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Originally Posted by finlay666

No their rates are higher because they are less experienced and more likely to write off an expensive vehicle that isn't theirs. It's more down to not being able to control the car, not knowing how to react in a situation (sliding out of control, brakes locking etc)

Driving too slow doesn't cause accidents? Next time you go past a speed camera watch the number of people in front that slam the brakes on because they weren't paying attention. If you go into them it's still a speed related accident.

scaryjim: I would avoid the wall by leaving a suitable braking distance in front of me to react and take an evasive manoeuvre if required.

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Dude, learn to read. I said driving slow doesn't cause as many accidents as driving fast inappropriately. You even quoted my words!

Road Casualties Great Britain: 2003 Annual Report

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In Great Britain, data collected about road traffic accidents in 1999 to 2002 examined the factors involved in each accident. Excessive speed was the most common contributory factor in fatal accidents, playing a part in 28% of all fatal accidents examined in the trial. Careless, thoughtless or reckless behaviour was next, being a contributory factor in 21% of all fatal accidents examined.

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Going too slow was not mentioned.

I think we largely agree, that simple speed is not the main issue; it's inappropriate speed for the conditions.

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Originally Posted by Kata

Dude, learn to read. I said driving slow doesn't cause as many accidents as driving fast inappropriately. You even quoted my words!

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Sorry I was quoting your part to summarise what had been said by others already in the thread and only addressing the part of insurance premiums, should probably have snipped it.... but I couldn't be bothered

I was posting without due care and attention ;)

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Originally Posted by finlay666

I was posting without due care and attention ;)

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:mrgreen:

I never drive at 70. If I'm not late then I do 60 to save fuel. If I am late I do 90+ (where road and traffic conditions allow, obviously), on the basis that if I'm going to speed I might as well go fast enough for it to make a noticeable difference. In the latter case I am usually slowed down considerably by middle lane hogging prats causing people who want to do 70 to stay in the outside lane for extended periods. I do not flash or tailgate these people as I can see it's not their fault, but the fault of the knob in the middle lane.

IMO the police should make a real effort to stop and re-educate MLHers, it would save everyone else so much aggro. When I overtake one on an empty motorway I make a point of swooping over to the inside lane in one move before proceeding on my merry way. Very few of them get the hint, although it has been known.

I drive at 50mph, as the M6 seems to be full of 50mph zones at the moment :(

Well my commute today was blighted by the \'40-everywhere\' brigade :/

Having moved from Portsmouth, UK to Birmingham, AL. USA, I don\'t miss UK motorways one bit. Nice wide roads, hardly anybody does 90mph... and its legal to pass on either side! :D

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Originally Posted by caveman-jim

Having moved from Portsmouth, UK to Birmingham, AL. USA, I don't miss UK motorways one bit. Nice wide roads, hardly anybody does 90mph... and its legal to pass on either side! :D

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Hah.. when I was working in the states it was the opposite - the M25 was like childsplay compared to the gridlock on the I5 out of San Diego. Undertaking was illegal still, but everyone did it anyway, not that it makes any difference when all 5 lanes are solid.

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Originally Posted by Rave

IMO the police should make a real effort to stop and re-educate MLHers, it would save everyone else so much aggro. When I overtake one on an empty motorway I make a point of swooping over to the inside lane in one move before proceeding on my merry way. Very few of them get the hint, although it has been known.

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QFT. Have done this a number of times, espcially when coming up from Brighton to Manchester late at night/early morning.

Plenty of people doing 60/65 in the middle lane on an empty motorway for me to then have to pull out from the inside lane right over to the outside lane and then back into the inside lane, all while leaving a nice big gap between the car I am over taking and travelling at the speed limit. Middle lane Marys* need to be shot. Pulled out of the car and executed on the side of the road, that should solve the problem in a jiffy. IMHO.

*I apologise to anyone who is called Mary, or knows anyone with this name. It seems to fit with the whole concept of middle lane dwellers. Nor am I stating that all people who choose to sit in the middle lane regardless of other vehicles on the road are female, this is not the case.

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Originally Posted by Madafwo

... have to pull out from the inside lane right over to the outside lane and then back into the inside lane ...

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Naah, just go up the inside of them, then enjoy the entertainment in your rear view mirror as they have an apoplexy at you for daring to undertake them...

EDIT: or you could just wait until you're a couple of car length's behind them then blast your horn...?

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Originally Posted by Flash477

People seem to think that the speed limit on the Motorway is a "guideline" and think that it is perfectly acceptable to do whatever speed they like - even when warning signs, or roadwork speed limits are telling them differently. The fact is that you don't have that right, and quite frankly you're arrogant if you think you do. I you need to travel at 90mph to get where you're going, then you left too late - leave earlier!

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You can not use the "leave earlier" solution for most cases simply because there is always the unexpected such as traffic, road works, wrong turn, kids throwing up, etc which can always make you late.

People know how long it takes to get from A to B. In the case I made earlier in this thread, I had left a whole hour earlier.

So what we all agree on are that MLH doing 60mph should all be shot, leaving the third lane under police supervision for overtaking or speeding when your late for a funeral/wedding/hospital.

Perfect.

I only do 70mph max on the motorway. cos the friction on the sidewalls of the tyres won't let it go sideways any damn faster.

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Originally Posted by scaryjim

Naah, just go up the inside of them, then enjoy the entertainment in your rear view mirror as they have an apoplexy at you for daring to undertake them...

EDIT: or you could just wait until you're a couple of car length's behind them then blast your horn...?

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Unfortunately the same people that sit in the middle lane of an empty motorway are usually the same people that will pull into another lane without any warning or indication. At which point I have to explain why I was under taking someone to police/insurance company.

It makes me happy that I know they are idiots, I show them that they are idiots, but theys till dont get it.

Eh, this is all pointless when the variable speed cameras get rolled out nationwide.

Or even worse, variable average speed cameras!

Dave, I really don't think national average speed cameras would be a problem - I even think they'd be a good idea - IF they would realise that there are many times that 70 is too slow a limit (night time on an empty road for example) and put the limit up to 90-100.

I have no problem accepting inappropriate speed is a significant risk factor not only in causing accidents but in their severity if they do happen - and that therefore there should BE a limit. Don't get me wrong, I do speed a lot so I'm not looking for the moral high ground, but I recognise that there are times when traffic moves too fast and I do get annoyed at people zooming past me in Vauxhall Novas in rush hour at 100mph - you just know it won't end well.

My problem is that the face of "slow everyone down and make the limit 50mph everywhere" is people like BRAKE, which is middle class mothers the government wants to pander to. The face of "lets let people go at 100 when it's safe to" is Jeremy Clarkson, whom many, especially in politics, love to hate. Doing what is right and logical isn't always politically sensible - and what is politically sensible seems to be what comes to pass rather than the logical.

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Originally Posted by Alex

Dave, I really don't think national average speed cameras would be a problem .

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I don't think he does either - it's the variable average speed cameras that are the concern ;)

Oh yeah. :) Never mind!

MLM's really annoy the hell out of me when i'm driving for work

Especially so when i am in a restricted speed vehicle so you either slow down and sit behind them or overtake at 1mph faster than them, even more so when you pull in after passing them and move straight to the first lane because it is clear, and yet they still carry on in the middle lane...

And then there are the rubbishrubbishrubbishrubbishrubbish who think they can just sit in the outside lane all of the time, even if the rest of the lanes are clear (and i'm talking empty...) forcing you to sit behind doing 55, or undertake them... I know which one i'll choose after sitting behind for long enough...

Also the people that pull out MILES before the vehicle that they're going to over take when you are obviously right on top of them, causing you to have to brake sharply in avoidance and causing pallet slide, which is considerably more annoying when said pallet is an extra ton+ pushing you forward... :angst:

Proper lorry drivers and proper van drivers (i.e. not rent a van) are my favourites on the roads, as you can guarantee that they will let you in/out at junctions/on motorways, but it works both ways, i'll flash lorries out/in 99% of the time if it is safe and appropriate to do so, same with vans.

The main problem on motorways is the braking effect, whereby cars doing 70 are too close so first car brakes slightly and slows down to 69 the second over compensates and slows to 65, third to 60, 4th to 55, 5th 50, 6th 45, 7th 40... etc etc... until you get down to one lane crawling for some unperceivable reason...

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Originally Posted by dave87

Or even worse, variable average speed cameras!

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I can see people driving along, scientific calculators out to figure out the speed they need to be doing ;)

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Originally Posted by TAKTAK

Also the people that pull out MILES before the vehicle that they're going to over take when you are obviously right on top of them, causing you to have to brake sharply in avoidance

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I agree causing sudden braking is bad, but I usually find that everyone has a completely different idea of how far 'miles' is when it comes to overtaking. I know I leave a very large gap but I won't pull out if there's someone approaching in the overtaking.. but it sometimes is hard to judge speeds in mirrors, especially if someone is travelling far in excess of the legal limit. While I do my best, it's also up to the person overtaking me to be alert for well signalled in advance manoeuvres - if they judge that they will be approaching within a braking zone by the time my 3 indicator flashes and manoeuvre at legal speeds have completed then they need to take action in advance to ease off before they end up on my bumper and have to start braking suddenly :p I know I'll always leave enough room that I don't enter anyone's breaking zones when I start the manoeuvre.

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Originally Posted by finlay666

I can see people driving along, scientific calculators out to figure out the speed they need to be doing ;)

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I thought it would be useful to have trip counter/timer on a sat nav to tell you your average speed. Just touch a button at each camera, it could easily do the rest. Couple it with gps average speed cam locations and there is no need for the button!

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Originally Posted by oolon

I thought it would be useful to have trip counter/timer on a sat nav to tell you your average speed. Just touch a button at each camera, it could easily do the rest. Couple it with gps average speed cam locations and there is no need for the button!

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Then another button to set your speed to the camera.. or wait, just get rid of the button and make the cars do it anyway.. then add lane control and hey presto, fleets of co-ordinated, automatic car transport ;)