fired

oh not a good day.just been fired for gross misconduct (accussed of diesel theft).was suspended for investigation of company hi-top van and van seen filling large cans in back of van,only 1 person suspended, van checked by garage (not independant garage) and my van compared to other van on firm that doesn't do the same kind of journeys as mine,so based on paperwork and figures i was sacked for theft, no regestration of van was taken by said witness and no photographic proof so i'm a theif via paperwork,is that not a slanderous remark as i aint a theif and have not filled containers using thier fuel card.........what should i do??????????

Personally I would attack.

Get a meeting with HR and offer no tribunal for 12 months paid gardening leave. With that you will put in notice.

If no deal. ATTACK

In a nutshell, Citizens Advice Bureau.
I take it that the van is sig-written with the company name ? Really need more facts, but I would recommend writing down all the details whilst it's fresh in your mind. What happened, who spoke to you, what evidence was presented, how you were treated, what type of job it was, any documentation etc and take it to the CAB.

HR were at the meeting but you know that HR and manager stick together like tics on a dog. not sure how to play this as have never been in this situation

van was sign written but there are 35 vans in our unit also vans from other towns work in our area, fuel economy as worked out and yes it was poor but we had snow and i do alot of stop start short journeys compared to the other van i was compared too.felt like i was treated like the guilty party from the start. And thanks to everyone for thier help....

1) Make notes
2) Collect any documents you have. I think that they have to show you the evidence against you.
3) CAB

how long have you worked for the company?

Welcome to Hexus.

Are you a member of a Trade Union? If so, I would contact them - otherwise CAB, or consult someone legally qualified who specialises in employment law.

All petrol stations have CCTV, did your company consult them as this is a serious case?

They could match up the CCTV to your Fuel receipt and highlight that no fuel cans were used.

Fight it, talk to the CAB about how to get an unfair dismissal tribunal underway. Demand the figures and fuel economy for all vans. To see if your one really is that bad, check and see what it your vehicle was like last year. If they will not produce the evidence, a tribunal would be very interested in that. Is it possible someone else got hold of your fuel card? Ie did someone swap cards with you and then swap back? Can you find out where and when your card was used? Surely they have date, time and place for the offence? Where was your van at this time. Were you at lunch while your mate drove the van?

Edit:
Nothing is going to get your job back quickly, you need to start looking for alternative employment. Hopefully, a tribunal will get you some compensation, even if they do give you a job again, your manager will do they best to make you uncomfortable, so getting another job is the best idea, to go with the tribunal. I am sorry.

there is no cctv to show, loads of paperwork with fuel reciepts and milage calculations.i've worked for them for 2yrs but since i brought a grievance against one of the managers things aint been the same,yes i admit it looks bad with the figures on paper but that is not 100% proof it's all cercumstancial, and i aint done it anyway but it's thier word against mine and accordding to them i'm a thief and had to go

check your home insurance policy, you might well have personal and family legal insurance. If so, ring them up and start using it, it should cover advice from a solicitor.

you should speak to ACAS as soon as possible

i presume you were suspended a few days ago, and given a letter formally inviting you to a disciplinary hearing with details of the complaint and advising you that the outcome may result in dismissal, and you attended the hearing, and after they presented the evidence and heard your reply, they adjourned and came back with the finding and gave you a letter of dismissal, and that should give you 7 days to appeal?

you should appeal in writing straight away, put in writing your reasons, put everything in writing, make it clear and elaborate on everything, and point out that it's only circumstantial evidence, there is nothing definitive as you did not do it. explain your reasons why you think the fuel use may be higher for your vehicle etc, and state that you will not accept the decision under any circumstances and take the issue further in a tribunal if you are not immediately reinstated. state in writing that you believe the disciplinary process to be unfair and the allegations made up, as a result of your formal greivance against your manager. ensure this is stated in writing. keep a copy of your appeal and any other documents relating to this incident

next step if they don't give you the job back is to raise a tribunal complaint and take them to a tribunal. the main things the tribunal is concerned with is the technical aspects of how the disciplinary was handled by the employer

but did you do it?

a few other things...

have you had any formal warnings for anything previously, if so what? have you had any warnings at all, formal or informal or any discussions prior to this about your fuel usage being high?

did you ask for and/or did the employer give you paperwork to show your milage and fuel use compared to other vehicles, and how many other vehicles did they compare fuel against mileage in order to ascertain that your fuel use to mileage was higher than other vehicles, and what percentage of fuel use were you higher?

i presume you kept mileage logs during the vehicle use, did your fuel to mileage increase during your 2 years, or remain similar?

what you want to aim for is that you weren't previously warned about your fuel consumption, you weren't given adequate paperwork prior to your hearing to answer your case, point out that you are a driver and never had warnings before and not used to this situation whilst your HR dept etc are qualified and experienced in these issues yet didn't give you the appropriate information to deal with your case. you also want to point out that they didn't compare against a sufficient number of vehicles as regards to your fuel useage and your useage has remained constant throughout your time with the company. you also want to ask them if they will continue to monitor and compare the fuel usage with your intended replacement if they don't reinstate you, and ask what they will do when they find the fuel usage is not notable different to yours, in other words providing them with the circumstantial evidence that you did not use the fuel

that's what you want to hit them with in writing, obtain a written reply and present that to the tribunal hearing

i'm presuming they've plucked this out of the air and they haven't made a proper fuel comparison or given you proper paperwork to compair, thus you were at an unfair disadvantage at your hearing

also, i'd mention that if they had suffiencnt evidence to fire you for stealing fuel, why didn't they report this to the police as theft, and also to the insurance company for a theft claim, as a proper investiagtion by either or both parties would provide further evidence to your case that you didn't do what you were dismissed for

bummer! feel for you man!

was suspended for a week before the hearing then suspended again because they couldn't reach a decission,only had a comparason done to one other van,wasn't given all relivant paperwork before the hearing was presented with some on the day,was asked if i could convince them as to where the fuel had gone,wasn't given a letter of dismissal was just escorted off the premisses..........thanks

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Originally Posted by dazdaz

was suspended for a week before the hearing then suspended again because they couldn't reach a decission,only had a comparason done to one other van,wasn't given all relivant paperwork before the hearing was presented with some on the day,was asked if i could convince them as to where the fuel had gone,wasn't given a letter of dismissal was just escorted off the premisses..........thanks

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ok, so you have a number of points, insufficient info to address your hearing, the company didn't make a sufficient comparison regards to collecting evidence and made a decision based on that as circumstantial evidence, you have your grievance towards your manager as your evidence pointing to you being set up, so it sounds like they haven't followed reasonable procedures in regards to dismissing an employee with 2 years of service and no previous warnings for misconduct or the issue at hand, and you were dismissed based on inadequate circumstantial evidence which you weren't provided with in sufficient time to address during your disciplinary hearing

as tribunals look for the technicalities of how the disciplinary process was handled, it sounds like you have a reasonably good case

i'd suggest you have a long read through what i posted before and detail it all in a letter so you can formally appeal against the disciplinary hearing, which you have the right to do. you should also call ACAS first thing in the morning for free and confidential advice before you send the letter. type the letter up, call ACAS, explain the situation, read the letter to them and send it. you can post your letter here (minus identifying details) if you want feedback before you send it, or you can PM it to me to read before you send

will get onto ACAS first thing thank you for the advise will keep you informed as to how things pan out once again thanks

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Originally Posted by dazdaz

will get onto ACAS first thing thank you for the advise will keep you informed as to how things pan out once again thanks

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i think your plan of attack you be to state that you are appealing as you believe yourself to be dismissed as a result of whilstleblowing by filing a grievance against your manager (as it's illegal to fire someone for that), and furthermore the disciplinary process was not handled out reasonably, you had no previous warnings official or unofficial that there were any issues regarding your fuel use, a comparison for fuel use with only 1 vehicle when the company has x other vehicles, including x similar vehicles is not sufficiently detailed or fair, you weren't presented with the appropriate findings in sufficient time to put together your response in the disciplinary hearing when the individuals holding the hearing had the full details and had them before you, you categorically confirm that you did not steal any fuel, point out that there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that you did misuse your fuel card, and if they had sufficient evidence to warrant dismissing an employee with 2 years of unblemished service, why haven't they reported the theft/fraud to the police and insurance company for investigation/claim, as you receive confirmation that you had not comitted any theft/fraud had a proper investigation been made. point out that you have sought professional legal advice on the matter and you will not let the issue lie and you will raise a tribunal complaint if you aren't reinstated immediately. also ask for confirmation that they will continue to monitor the fuel use on that vehicle and journey route and ask what action will be taken when they find that the fuel use will not change. if you know the percentage difference of fuel use between your vehicle and the checked vehicle and it's less than 10% you might want to point out that it's a small difference, and the reason is because xyz

go over my initial posts to give a more detailed response, put it in writing, speak to acas, finalise the letter after seeking advice and send it off within the timeframe. acas may also suggest you send the tribunal claim before awaiting reply

load of bollox, i can get between 400 and 700 miles a tank depending on the routes i take, a trip to norfolk uses twice as much as staying local as im at motorway speeds.

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Originally Posted by GoNz0

load of bollox, i can get between 400 and 700 miles a tank depending on the routes i take, a trip to norfolk uses twice as much as staying local as im at motorway speeds.

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i don't drive, so i'm not familiar about fuel consumption in such a way, but i do know that in order to make a comparison you need to do a bit more than just check against one other item, at least 3 to 5 to begin to be considered anything like a fair and reasonable comparison, and use an average as a guide, with a tolerance for margin of error

perhaps there is documentation that could be googled up from motoring sites regarding fuel consumption fluctuations that the OP could provide as further evidence, such as comparisons between inner city routes, long distance motorway routes, and country road routes

one other thing i would strongly recommend is for the OP to put in a request for data under the data protections act. you submit a formal letter with a small fee like £10 and the company is obliged to provide you with a copy of all data they hold on you, such as letters, emails, documents from your personnel file etc. employers hate having to do this. it should provide the OP with the details on his disciplinary, and hopefully the grievance that was filed, as that should help provide further evidence in regards to a tribunal claim, and it will make the employer realise that the employee is taking serious action. the employer may rethink the decision and perhaps offer a monetary settlement

contacted ACAS and have already sent a letter to head office with all the issues as advised by ACAS,sent it recorded so someone has to sign for it,who do i contact regarding the data info????

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Originally Posted by dazdaz

contacted ACAS and have already sent a letter to head office with all the issues as advised by ACAS,sent it recorded so someone has to sign for it,who do i contact regarding the data info????

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http://www.ico.gov.uk/Global/faqs/da...3-22ECBBF66D3D

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Q: Which Act allows me to get my personal information? And can they charge me?

The Data Protection Act 1998 gives you the right to apply for a copy of your personal information. You will need to put your request in writing, by letter or email, and send it to the person or organisation you believe holds this information. Make sure to put your name and address and keep a copy. It is a good idea to make clear you are asking for the information under the Data Protection Act 1998.

Yes, under the Data Protection Act they can ask for a fee of up to £10.00 for each request made.

For more information on your rights, take a look at the advice and tips in our personal information toolkit.

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you just need to send a letter saying something like "i wish a copy of all the personal information kept on file about myself as per my rights under the data protection act 1998 and enclose a cheque for £10 to cover costs. you could please send this to me to the following address..." and enclose a £10 cheque or postal order. i'd suggest sending this recorded delivery too, and i'd suggest addresssing the request to the managing director if it's a smallish company and he works on site at the same location as you did, or the named individual on the letter that you sent about your appeal, or the head of HR, or your line manager (but going down in the order, line manager being the last person to write to, MD being first - just pick one person). they have 40 days to get back to you, so you could mail today and presume they get it on monday and count 41 days from then and say you expect to have this information by x date

keep a copy of the letter you send, it might come in handy if they don't reply. this just all gives you loads more evidence to support your potential tribunal case, but if you proceed in this manner you should hopefully resolve things without setting foot in a tribunal. i wouldn't expect your job back, but you should be entitled to some payment for losing your job, and more importantly formal confirmation that you weren't guilty, and confirmation that you will get a good employment reference with unblemished service. if you are fired from a job you can wait up to 26 weeks to be able to claim benefits, so it's a serious matter, and who wants to employ someone who was dismissed for fraud? you need to clear your name

Have you had any warnings (verbal or written) before this?

It seems unusual for them to act in this way unless they were certain it was you. Talk to your union rep if you have one, or the CAB as others have suggested. I have found the CAB to be a useful place to start, even if you have to take it further with someone else, they can atleast point you in the right direction

Have they taught you how to drive in a way that saves fuel? There are courses out there where they teach you how to drive using different techniques. We did that at my work and certain members of staff were informed that they could get up to 33% more miles if they changed their driving techniques. Are they certain that this is not a training issue? If so it is there responsibility to provide you with that training.

Does you vehicle have tracking installed? If it has when they did the test using the other vehicle did they complete the exact same routes (hills, traffic lights etc) and also did they do it at the exact same times (School traffic etc).

It sounds to me that they are on sticky ground, there are too many loop holes. We would not sack some one for what has happened with yourself, we would inform them that we would be monitoring the situation and inform the user that there may be a training issue.

They want to get rid of you , thats obvious, but you need to prove you have done nothing wrong and that they are at fault for judging you without any proof. Either way you need to find new employment as they will keep looking for something on you.

ps I will find a link to the company we use to train staff in driving techniques, you may be able to find so ammo to use if it goes to court.

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Originally Posted by donkey17

Have they taught you how to drive in a way that saves fuel? There are courses out there where they teach you how to drive using different techniques. We did that at my work and certain members of staff were informed that they could get up to 33% more miles if they changed their driving techniques. Are they certain that this is not a training issue? If so it is there responsibility to provide you with that training.

Does you vehicle have tracking installed? If it has when they did the test using the other vehicle did they complete the exact same routes (hills, traffic lights etc) and also did they do it at the exact same times (School traffic etc).

It sounds to me that they are on sticky ground, there are too many loop holes. We would not sack some one for what has happened with yourself, we would inform them that we would be monitoring the situation and inform the user that there may be a training issue.

They want to get rid of you , thats obvious, but you need to prove you have done nothing wrong and that they are at fault for judging you without any proof. Either way you need to find new employment as they will keep looking for something on you.

ps I will find a link to the company we use to train staff in driving techniques, you may be able to find so ammo to use if it goes to court.

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As far as i know they just monitored the trackers and compared mine to the other van which as i said before only goes to 1 -3 sites a day not 9-12 like myself, there was talk of a training course for driving and yes i do race around as do some of the others, there has also been a couple of issues with my health recently i.e my back, i had major back surgery in Nov 2008 and just recently another disc in my back has gone which has made driving difficult,but it wasn't bad enough to be signed off so they sent me home (unpaid) which forced me to take 2 weeks holiday,and they weren't happy when i came back, kept saying that they were unsure that i was able to carry out the work (which i didn't have a problem with)also nobody else was investigated as in the 1st e-mail it said that there were 2 vans involved,yes i'm annoyed i lost me job and no i wouldn't go back cause of the manager i just want them to answer for the way it was all done, as i wasn't given all the evidence until i got into the hearing then i had to wait another week for the next hearing and was asked to convince them as to where the fuel had gone as soon as i said that i couldn't answer that, i was told i was being dismissed for theft, then the dismissal letter turned up 5 days later saying why i'd been dismissed but had no mention of the 1st hearing cause lets face it the 2nd hearing was a joke.so i've asked for all my file held by data protection and i addressed the letter to the M.D of the company but i dont think he actually opened it so i need to find his e-mail address just to enlighten him as to my intentions. What do you think????? and thanks for the advise

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Originally Posted by dazdaz

As far as i know they just monitored the trackers and compared mine to the other van which as i said before only goes to 1 -3 sites a day not 9-12 like myself, there was talk of a training course for driving and yes i do race around as do some of the others, there has also been a couple of issues with my health recently i.e my back, i had major back surgery in Nov 2008 and just recently another disc in my back has gone which has made driving difficult,but it wasn't bad enough to be signed off so they sent me home (unpaid) which forced me to take 2 weeks holiday,and they weren't happy when i came back, kept saying that they were unsure that i was able to carry out the work (which i didn't have a problem with)also nobody else was investigated as in the 1st e-mail it said that there were 2 vans involved,yes i'm annoyed i lost me job and no i wouldn't go back cause of the manager i just want them to answer for the way it was all done, as i wasn't given all the evidence until i got into the hearing then i had to wait another week for the next hearing and was asked to convince them as to where the fuel had gone as soon as i said that i couldn't answer that, i was told i was being dismissed for theft, then the dismissal letter turned up 5 days later saying why i'd been dismissed but had no mention of the 1st hearing cause lets face it the 2nd hearing was a joke.so i've asked for all my file held by data protection and i addressed the letter to the M.D of the company but i dont think he actually opened it so i need to find his e-mail address just to enlighten him as to my intentions. What do you think????? and thanks for the advise

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i suggest you speak to ACAS again before you take any further action

from what i recall, you sent your appeal by recorded delivery, and you had 7 days to send that in. did you receive a reply to this yet?

and with the data request, they have a few days to respond to this. did you send it by recorded delivery, and when? what is the deadline that they have to reply by? i wouldn't chase them up for this unless the deadline passes, and then there will be formal steps for you to take regarding the non compliance. chasing up informally may affect this, so stick to the proper procedures

what does the dismissal letter state as the official reason for dismissal?

btw, i didn't know you had other issues with your health. the employer can't send you home like that without pay. this sounds like further evidence of an unfair dismissal, the employer wants to get rid of you because of your health, which is illegal, and because of whilstleblowing, which is also illegal. you could have mentioned that in your appeal, but you can mention this in your tribunal complaint

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Originally Posted by uni

i suggest you speak to ACAS again before you take any further action

from what i recall, you sent your appeal by recorded delivery, and you had 7 days to send that in. did you receive a reply to this yet?

and with the data request, they have a few days to respond to this. did you send it by recorded delivery, and when? what is the deadline that they have to reply by? i wouldn't chase them up for this unless the deadline passes, and then there will be formal steps for you to take regarding the non compliance. chasing up informally may affect this, so stick to the proper procedures

what does the dismissal letter state as the official reason for dismissal?

btw, i didn't know you had other issues with your health. the employer can't send you home like that without pay. this sounds like further evidence of an unfair dismissal, the employer wants to get rid of you because of your health, which is illegal, and because of whilstleblowing, which is also illegal. you could have mentioned that in your appeal, but you can mention this in your tribunal complaint

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I recieved a letter stating that my dismissal was for gross misconduct for the theft of diesel,and i recieved a letter to confirm that they had recieved my appeal letter and a date would be arranged for a hearing i also recieved a letter from HR to confirm that they had recieved my request for the data protection files and that they were sorting it out. they have until the 4th of june to do this as i was told it can take upto 40 days,however i was a bit concerned as to weather the MD of the company will be informed of my request as the letter was addressed to him but it was obviously opened by his HR department,i was sent home for health reasons even though i felt ok to carry on working but i did have to use holiday pay to support myself whilst i was off then i returned to work 2 weeks later which didn't impress them that much and a week and a bit later i was suspended for the fuel incident,having never been i this situation before i am very grateful for the help and advise you are giving....thanks

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Originally Posted by dazdaz

I recieved a letter stating that my dismissal was for gross misconduct for the theft of diesel,and i recieved a letter to confirm that they had recieved my appeal letter and a date would be arranged for a hearing i also recieved a letter from HR to confirm that they had recieved my request for the data protection files and that they were sorting it out. they have until the 4th of june to do this as i was told it can take upto 40 days,however i was a bit concerned as to weather the MD of the company will be informed of my request as the letter was addressed to him but it was obviously opened by his HR department,i was sent home for health reasons even though i felt ok to carry on working but i did have to use holiday pay to support myself whilst i was off then i returned to work 2 weeks later which didn't impress them that much and a week and a bit later i was suspended for the fuel incident,having never been i this situation before i am very grateful for the help and advise you are giving....thanks

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i'm not sure what difference it makes if the MD is aware of the data request or not. the point is the have accepted it and will be processing it. it depends if it's a big company or not, and perhaps what the relationship is between the person opening his mail and the MD. some secretaries may receive a large amount of mail addressed to the MD, with 70% being unsolicited or someone else would be better dealing with it, so if it's a lot they might not let him know. if it's a small amount or they think it's important for him to know, he may know, but the MD wouldn't personally org anise it would probably be passed to HR or someone to handle

when you receive you appeal hearing, you should consult with ACAS again. you should start putting down your list of reasons why you think the dismissal is unfair, thus you have to state whilstleblowing as one main reason (firing someone for that is illegal), and your health as another reason (disability discrimination is also illegal), pointing out that you should not have been sent home without notice for health reasons without being paid, and without it coming from your holiday entitlement, so you seek payment for that period of unpaid earnings/loss of holiday entitlement. you also want to point out that a fuel comparision with only one other vehicle is not considered an adequate assessment, and that it's unfair that you have been using the same fuel amount since you started, it's never been queried, you've never had any discussion as to this being a high fuel use, you should obtain what info you can as evidence of differing fuel consumtion with different vehicles and different journeys, and categorically deny you stole fuel and point out that there is not a shred of material evidence that you stole fuel or misused your fuel card etc. you should also detail the chain of events as you were sent home incorrectly on holiday leave without adequate notice, and point out that you had only returned to work for one week when this next happened, and point out exactly why you think that they weren't happy when you returned to work (ie. comments, facial/body expressions etc)

if you detail everything precisely, and handle everything in a formal manner and keep checking with ACAS, they will see that you are organised and aren't going to give up lightly. ideally you want the data before your hearing, but they may try and arrange this before they provide this to you. if they have until 4th june they will probably arrange your next hearing before the end of may. if you don't receive the data in adequate time before your hearing you should ask in writing for this data in good time before your hearing, and tell them that you intend to use this as evidence to support your case. they may write back and say that they wish to/require to hold the hearing ASAP and it will take time to produce the data, thus it's not possible. you can then state in your hearing that this appears to be done specifically in order to inhibit your hearing, and ultimately you can use all of this as part of your tribunal hearing if it goes to that stage. you have to show that you have taken all the appropriate formal steps you can, and demonstrate that the company was acting unreasonable, when you get to the tribunal. the company may now take legal advice regarding this case.

you can show to the tribunal that the employer did not act reasonably when they sent you home on holiday leave when they thought you were sick. that's evidence that the employer generally does not act reasonably, so helps set a precidence that the employer does not always follow good practice. next is to demonstrate to the tribunal what happen when you whilstleblew, that's not as clear cut and easy to prove, but with the sickness handling added, it starts to look bad. and you may make it appear that the sickness handling was also a result of whistleblowing. make sure you mention whilstleblowing as whistleblowing, and nothing else, and refer to disability as a term, so they know you have sought advice on this. the next stage is simply that they didn't adequately check regarding the fuel consuption, and didn't adequately warn you about it, and i'm presuming they gave you now training or guidance regarding best practice of fuel consumption, so mention that too. they expect good fuel consumtpion without mentioning it to you or giving training and support. its up to the employer to point this out if they want you to adhere to it