[Rant]Hitler wasn't an atheist.

[TheAnimus]

hen you have Hitler propaganda by the church that he wasn’t Christian , then you have the Jews altering history tweaking it every so often saying he was evil, the church had no alternative but to say what hey say

Wait what?

[chuckskull]

This is probably the most well researched post I have ever read on Hexus. I was stunned. I must admit that I'm a cynical bastard, so I chucked a few random phrases into google to make sure you hadn't lifted it wholesale from somewhere else- no evidence of that that I could find, I'm very pleased to say.

So I thanked you once- I'd thank you three times if it was possible, because I've never seen a historical argument of that quality outside of the academic papers I've been exposed to as the editor of my wife's essays for her OU Masters. Do you have a History degree? Because I reckon you'd get a First very easily at the OU with that level of analysis and lucid presentation.

Thank you very much I take that as high praise and no sadly, due to circumstances beyond my control I don't have a degree in History or anything else, nor even an A level. Thankfully I live in an age where educating oneself is easier than ever before. Knowledge is now free, plentiful and readily available and I gorge myself at any opportunity. Please wish your wife the best of luck in her Masters if she hasn't already passed.

On your other points quickly; I find 'fighting' religion analogous to fighting quicksand, it only tightens it's grip, the best thing to do is keep some rope handy to help those who want to be pulled out. Finally;

One day I'm going to die... It's the only thing keeping me going. --Frankie Boyle

I agree, but I think people spend far too long objectifying the man, turning him into a scientific experiment. He really wasn't, in my personal view, a particularly special person. A great orator, yes. But he wasn't particularly intelligent, he didn't have particularly inspiring traits or contributions to society, and he didn't lead a particularly effective government.

The longer we look at him as some great "master of evil", the less we look and say "How did an ordinary person get placed on a pedestal of enormous power without any of several million people so much as batting an eyelid?

The way some people talk about him, as some sort of bizarre off-shoot of humanity, you'd think it could never happen again. Perhaps they're right, but I think that's very optimistic.

I would far prefer it if everyone was a bit less sensationalist, a bit less obsessed with the man himself, and said instead: "How did somebody who wasn't particularly unique or special come to a position where he was able to decide the fates of millions of innocents?", rapidly followed by "could we ever end up in this situation again?". Given the way some people talk about politics these days, I don't think they've learned anything from an enormous tragedy. Is that because they think he was a once-in-a-millennium monster, an antichrist of some degree? I think that is, to an extent, true.

Agreed on all points.

Agreed, but as above - I think you've got to question how much his personality and belief system is a viable explanation.

As you can see, I'm not exactly an intentionalist, to say the least.

I still don't agree with you I'm afraid. You keep saying that it's 100% clear that he's Christian, but the truth is that we will never know how he felt.

I can guarantee you one thing: assuming he was mentally capable of deciding his religion (and I think that much is obvious), he could not possibly have been a Christian in the way I consider the word. However, I suspect that's a moot point.

100% of the evidence points to him considering himself a Christian and that he was doing God's work. There is not one private letter or other source indicating otherwise. Considering he is one of the most studied and well documented men in history, with even his most personal and secret plans and desires now laid open to the judgement of history; this is damning. The only times Hitler used the words atheism and secularism were to attack it. They were one of his earliest political targets.

We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.

As evil as he beliefs were he had absolute conviction in them, suggesting otherwise is preposterous, as demonstrated by his actions. He followed he followed his beliefs through to their logical conclusion without hesitation or mercy. I see no evidence that power was an end to Hitler as your argument would assert, it was means, a means to impose the beliefs he espoused in every book, speech, broadcast, letter, conservation and interview on the people of Germany and if he had succeeded the rest of the world.

1) 1930s Germany was a thoroughly Christian nation, so in spreading concepts to the general populace, you would utilise Christian ideas and terminology.

Sorry but that's utterly and blatantly incorrect. Unless your definition of thorough is very strange. Before the rise of Hitler. Germany was considered one of the most liberal and tolerant nations on the planet, by the standards of the day, a centre for art, philosophy, science and culture even above Britain and America by many despite the anti-Semitism of the Christian right in the country, but that was by no means exclusive to them. Atheism was practised freely, as were many belief systems and faiths, freethinking organisations met regularly in the centre of Berlin, secularism was on the rise and most schools were secular.

2) Hitler introduced some very controversial (unless you're Daniel Goldhagen) concepts to the German people: basically hatred.

That's just silly. Hatred and the basic principles Hitler espoused are nearly as old humanity itself, he merely popularised them more than any other man in recent history.

3) Many people disagreed. Had Hitler been an athest, people could have used it as a weakness against him, calling him evil.

4) Much resistance against him was based on religious grounds. The more people that believed Hitler was a Christian, the fewer that would agree to resist. This goes more than any other group for the Churches, I would suggest.

Hitler had everything to lose by not being a Christian, and everything to gain by being one.

He wrote and said what he wanted people to hear, not what he actually thought.

Utter supposition, and people were more than happy to call him evil without him being an atheist.

There is documentary evidence of of Hitler's willingness to lie to meet his ends, publicly and diplomatically, yet still there is not a jot of reliable evidence suggesting that his beliefs were anything other than utterly devout and if it were true, merely by the connotations and repercussions those beliefs would have, there should be a great deal if what you are suggesting is true.

His claimed belief's, public and private are easily available and even if the fact there is no documentary evidence to the contrary, which there is for all his other lies, is not enough to convince. Then the veracity of them can be inferred and confirmed by his actions. Which in every case support his claims.

We can know his belief's because he told us, then went on to prove them beyond any doubt by etching them on the world in the blood of the innocent. it's as simple as that.

Finally I really do not understand your desire to diminutise this, apart from the fact that the truth, always has value, millions died because of this man's beliefs and his ability to bring others round to them through word and force. Without understanding that, we once again will wait until millions are dead and suffering before trying to stop the next man with such twisted desires. If there was one mistake we made in WW2 it was allowing it to get so far, another 6 months before rallying every force at the disposal of the western world against him and it may of been to late. The consequences of that would of been terrible beyond comprehension. The thing that really scares me about Hitler is how truly close he came to succeeding.

[ehhhhhhh]

I would cite Richard Dawkins as being a particular antagoniser.

I wouldn't put him in that category. Having read most of his work, I came to the conclusion that he basically fights against the nonsense of organized religion and promotes knowledge, the scientific way of thinking and education as the most important things.

In my opinion studying Hitler's personal beliefs are secondary (though I admit very interesting). They created the most effective propaganda in history, hence every action, speech, etc are well constructed and aimed to influence the crowd. I would not consider these as facts or credible evidence supporting anything other than the fascinating way of ultimate control. he could have been a Mormon for that matter, we will never know.

Also, marking Hitler as an atheist is more likely a tool nowadays. If religions lose more believers they loose power that's all.

sorry if any of the above was off...

[Lucio]

One thought on the subject, and it's one that TeePee raised earlier in the thread. Do you define someone's religions by their professed beliefs, or by their actions?

I can't help but think that Hitler's beliefs are mostly irrelevant, as it's his actions that define the type of man he was, and more importantly the actions of those that followed him and carried out his instructions.

[badass]

The real issue is that the Jews hate all other religions, and think there’s only one.
The Jewish state has gone against may of its own religious beliefs in order to protect its religion. Both if not all religions are bad as each other as they are held hostage to human interventions. The major issue i have each religion tries to tell everyone else there is the truth and only truth, once someone has to convince you that theirs is the truth then it normally is the opposite. Then you have Hitler propaganda by the church that he wasn’t Christian , then you have the Jews altering history tweaking it every so often saying he was evil, the church had no alternative but to say what hey say, .
So if there was really a christ wouldn’t the anti Christ be the Jewish religion? if there wasn’t then it would make Christianity look evil but didn’t the Jews give up Christ and indirectly cause his death, could this be a hidden war between religions, Jewish using the power of money and propaganda, Christians and Muslim using the power of war? But now the Christians seeing that power and propaganda are more power that physical attacks


If there was such visitation wouldn’t it happen again, before it was just a small part of the world, now the problem has expanded around the world, I personally belive in the universe/s as my faith, i was created by the universe and will be passed back to the universe.

Quoted verbatim so he can't edit and claim TheAnimus's post is taken out of context.

[No.72]

I thought I would add to this thread because as a preservationist I think I can give a useful viewpoint. I'm going to try and cover quite a bit in a small bit of text, so apologies for the 'choppiness'.

Hitler was not entirely sold on what was the correct religious path, for instance Hitler approved of Mohammedanism and Asiatic religions. Although broadly speaking he did believe in the 'Aryan ideal' that roughly can be rounded to Paganism. Hitler perhaps was more interested in his plans for the short term .ie. what has do be done first and so he entrusted Himmler with the spiritual research as head of the SS. See Germanic Mysticism for further understanding.

The extreme Anti-Semitism of Nazism that makes a scapegoat of all the problems that European Civilization experiences as you will agree is the fundamental flaw in it's ideology that lead to the Holocaust. Secondary to this flaw was Nazi Anthropology. Hitler only read one book on physical Anthropology and that book was written by a Swedish Nordic supremacist who had a hatred of the Slavic peoples, this was mostly due to the wars between Sweden and Russia.

Most modern Historians agree that Nationalism and patriotism was something facilitated and even made up by European elites so the collective of a Nation could be mobilised to maximise productivity. In regards to Britain an example of this idea is seen by historians such as L. Colly in her book Britons . Colley is a product of the radical/Liberal/Marxist dominance of the 1960's and 70's that has survived the Thatcherite 'right wing backlash' and is now part of the current dominant Liberal majority. The influence of her work can be seen in the New Labour term of government, most famously she took part in a special speech about 'Britishness' in the year 2000 hosted by Tony Blair. Mostly this is linked with the ideas of Multiculturalism and egalitarianism.

One of the biggest mistakes you can make while analysing Nationalism or any sort of racial or Ethnic pride is to equate it with Fascism or Nazism. Nationalism with Ethnic and racial pride is an entirely healthy idea that should be encouraged for all peoples and races. Also do not make the mistake of comparing one period in history to another, and that certain ideas of the time were treated as unconventional. Indeed the way National Socialism divided Europeans that lead to the slaughtering of European Christians and Europeanised Jew's must be learnt from and never repeated. But we must not abandon our heritage our soil and what it means to belong to a collective group, I think you will agree the Jews know this better than anyone. Evidence of the success of Ethnocentrism can be seen in the Jewish people, particularly Jewish Zionists and their power they hold through Government Lobby's, Finance and Media.

Lastly what is often reported by intellectuals and politicians the rise of Nazism and Fascism is nonsense, if wanting to protect your heritage is wrong or a crime then we are already living in Orwellian soft 'totalitarian humanist' society. If you are one of those people that 'is in opposition of fascism and Nazism' or is an 'Anti-Fascist' you don't need to worry, legitimate fascism and Nazism were defeated in 1945. The only people that follow them now are degenerate drunkards.

Hope this helps.

Regards.

[mcmiller]

The real issue is that the Jews hate all other religions, and think there’s only one.
The Jewish state has gone against may of its own religious beliefs in order to protect its religion. Both if not all religions are bad as each other as they are held hostage to human interventions. The major issue i have each religion tries to tell everyone else there is the truth and only truth, once someone has to convince you that theirs is the truth then it normally is the opposite. Then you have Hitler propaganda by the church that he wasn’t Christian , then you have the Jews altering history tweaking it every so often saying he was evil, the church had no alternative but to say what hey say, .
So if there was really a christ wouldn’t the anti Christ be the Jewish religion? if there wasn’t then it would make Christianity look evil but didn’t the Jews give up Christ and indirectly cause his death, could this be a hidden war between religions, Jewish using the power of money and propaganda, Christians and Muslim using the power of war? But now the Christians seeing that power and propaganda are more power that physical attacks


If there was such visitation wouldn’t it happen again, before it was just a small part of the world, now the problem has expanded around the world, I personally belive in the universe/s as my faith, i was created by the universe and will be passed back to the universe.

Im not sure if what intended to be sound like this but i find that almost anti semitic

[badass]

I've thanked 2 fascinating posts in this thread for their lucidity, apparent research and rational viewpoints.

[No.72]

This thread seems a bit dead but I thought I would just add one important thing.

Always remember the talking heads on tv are employed by groups that have an interest. For example the state funded BBC claims to be unbiased but in reality is more of an agent for social engineering. When you talk to 90% of people about significant matters in the world it will be what they have been told by television, newspaper or radio ect.. It seems society is losing it's free will and becoming an Idiocracy .

The rise in Nationalism in Europe is directly linked with the dropping of the ridiculous Jewish conspiracy lines that has been perhaps the dominant idea. Now clearly Jews do have significant power around the world, everyone knows that. There are still splits that mean a conspiracy is imposable. Those splits relate to the strongly Liberal almost Anti-Zionist western world and western 'secular Jews' and the strongly Ethnocentric Zionist Jews who mostly live in Israel. Further evidence of this split is seen by what some Ethnocentric Zionist Jews are calling the "silence Holocaust"; many Jews in the West have married gentile Europeans and therefore "the Jewish race is being genocide again". Might I add the comparison to Europeans marrying non European families and any opposition to that argument being equated by intellectuals and governments is equated with racism, Nazism or bigotry, and is publicly displayed as being evil. It has got to the point that racism is seen as the worst possible crime a European can commit, possibly even worse than rape or murder. "Racism", "hate speech" all are characteristics of a people in denial of their heritage and in a state of self-hate.

Back to the topic of Jewish conspiracy; there are logical reasons why there is suspicion. This Liberal Jewish intellectual is an example of a Jew who lives in Europe who supports the state of Israel as a singular homogeneous state but at the same time encourages multiculturalism for Europe. I am not a fan of obsessive pandering of the influence of Jews, firstly because it is so closely linked to Nazism and secondly because people are hard-wired to think of Jews in a certain way. Any public criticism of Jews immediately loses the attention of your audience to the point of ridicule of yourself, so you see.

Now this may seem like I am presenting an argument that by today's discourse would be deemed anti-Semitic but it is mealy a realistic observation. The typical mistake is to either blame the Jews as a collective group for their behaviour or to blame certain Liberal and Zionist Jews, the poor state of European civilization is purely our own doing. Even if you are in opposition of my argument I think you will agree that the fabric of society is corrupted, look around you, it does not take much to view the degeneracy and decline.

Lastly Nationalism is on the rise in Europe, only because the people behind it are not Nazis or Fascists they are people who want to stop the destruction that Libro-capitalism, globalism and Multiculturalism is causing to Europe and the wider world. Please always remember as Europeans we have had a glorious past where were strong and confident. Of course that past also included terrible things such as Slavery and genocide that was committed by elites, those same elites are now telling us we should be guilty. We should never apologise and live in self hate of what we are. Self hate is leading to our destruction. Europeans and all peoples should be a proud of what they are, identity is divine.

Regards.