what do you believe

[Galant]

Do u believe that since i dont go to church and i dont worship God that i will go to hell? even if i believe in something....

And what happens if i decide to get marry in a church or christen my children, does that change things for me? will i no longer go to hell then?

Getting married in a church or wherever really doesn't do anything.

As for avoiding hell - I'll give you two approaches. The universalist approach says that when Christ died for the salvation of humanity, He achieved it. All will be saved and go to heaven, whether they acknowledge it or not. Because God's love is bigger than people's limited perspective. When they get there, they'll realise they were wrong, and they will be thankful for God's forsight and love.

The more common and normal approach is that the Bible shows that people have a choice in the matter. Therefore we must choose Christ. What does that mean - Christ used this image - "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me."

Life with Christ is to walk daily with Him. Talk with Him. He has much to offer in all things, and through this relationship with Him, He guides and transforms - "I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full."

It's hard to put all of this short and simply - but life with God is more than 'fire insurance' - it's also more than rules and regulations (in fact it's not rules and regulations, much to the contrary of most people's thought) - it is hard at times, but show me a life that isn't.

[Howard]

Lynni to be honest I've often been lying in bed and have found myself wondering the same thing. How exactly do you "feel" when you're dead? Does everything just go black? Do you go into a constant permanent dream state?
Then again I think "Of course not. I'm dead. My bodily organs aren't functioning".


And by good deaths and bad deaths do you mean ones with less pain, quick and painless, etc?

[Alex]

See this is what worries me.... ive seen 'good deaths' and ive seen 'bad deaths' and i know the difference, to have a 'bad death' scares the living crap outta me

And i spose its like, what happens once your dead... the non-existance, can u still see the people u loved? are we looking down on them? and another thing, do u get hungery and tired still when your dead? and im not being funny im being deadly serious

Well, with no religion, I guess the answer has to be no really, you can't look down on the ones you loved, or be hungry etc. You just aren't anything anymore. Don't know about from a religious POV tbh, heaven isnt just sitting on some cloud watching the world go by! I personally feel that once in heaven, the earth may well cease to matter to you. I think that in order for heaven to be perfect though, there must be sausages, so no hunger!

[turkster]

I don't see that the concept of a supernatural being is at all unreasonable. What I do see is that a lot of people seem to have a big aversion to even considering the option. Surely good science considers all the possibilities - the problem - the supernatural goes beyond the limits of natural science.

Good science should indeed consider all possibilities but this is sadly quite unusual. IMO scientists are often the most unlikely people to consider any possibilities other than those which they were taught. They often seem to possess a close mindedness (generally due to their education I wont go into that) which is clearly not inducive to any consideration of other possibilities. These are the same people who hold Einstein, among others, in great acclaim. Yet the majority of scientists are incapable of imagining anything like the kind of hypotheses that Einstein developed. The development of a greater understanding of our universe (and all that lies within it) is therefore limited by scientific close mindedness.

People want control - in a scientific world we have learned to control every aspect of nature - but supernatural can't be measured or controlled by our vast scientific resources. I think that makes people uncomfortable.

Is there a supernatural element to the universe? Something that goes beyond the physical?

Have we learnt to control every aspect of nature? I would imagine that is very unlikely. We think we have, or at least a lot of us think we have, but history shows that there is always more.
I think your right though that a lack of any kind of control over the 'supernatural' world worries people. So far it does not seem to have any direct association with classical or quantum physics. So how can it exist?

Just because we cannot define or measure it at present does not mean the supernatural doesnt exist. In fact if one thinks about it from a historical perspective the fact that it cant be measured provides very little grounds to deny its' existance.

[Elmo]

no offence galant, but this thread is an oppinion thread asking whether we believe in evolution or the 7day creation theory. Not about the whys and wherefores of the bible and whether god exists or not.

I really dont mind what religion people believe in or are part of. Personally, my beliefs mimic greatly those of the wiccan religion, but i'm in no way a witch. But i dont like people preaching unto others why their religion is the *right* religion and why it is more plausable than any other religion in the world.

I know your degree is in theology, however, you dont HAVE to be a christian or believe in god in order to study it. My friend is doing theology too and she's a wiccan witch. I understand that you feel very strongly about the subject, but please, try not to preach too much.

this post was in no way meant to offend, and i appologise if it has.

[lynni]

Lynni to be honest I've often been lying in bed and have found myself wondering the same thing. How exactly do you "feel" when you're dead? Does everything just go black? Do you go into a constant permanent dream state?
Then again I think "Of course not. I'm dead. My bodily organs aren't functioning".


And by good deaths and bad deaths do you mean ones with less pain, quick and painless, etc?

there are quotes about each, but im sure where ive got them

A bad death is one which is unprepared for e.g. a death which has been looming for a while and decisions havent been made - the red card hasnt been sorted (this is the do not attempt resuciation) or it hasnt been updated, because on every ward round it has to be reviewed and signed and if its no longer needed, then its to be discontinued and stated why.

The patient and relatives might not be prepared, they might not have had the emotional support provided by a counsellor and the patient has a fear of dying which hasnt been approached.

If the news has been kept from either the patient or the relative, or the relative has decided the patient isnt to know and then the patient finds out.

Ward staff arent very good at managing painf control for palliative patients, its a specialist role.... once its been decided what the options are, and what can be done for that patient, then the ward staff take it on but they arent capable of making the decisions really. If this hasnt been seen to, or the patient is in increasing amounts of pain or discomfort and this matter hasnt been reviewed, then this can increase fear. Other symptoms which arent managed but can happen during the dieing process e.g. constipation, vomiting, pain, restlesness, agiation, lethargic and sleepy.... If these arent controlled well, then in turn can lead to an eventual bad death

And as u can probably gather a good death is the complete opposite to all this and its these deaths, that actually give u an emormous amount of job satisfaction because you know you have done right by that patient, and they died comfortably

[Howard]

there are quotes about each, but im sure where ive got them

A bad death is one which is unprepared for e.g. a death which has been looming for a while and decisions havent been made - the red card hasnt been sorted (this is the do not attempt resuciation) or it hasnt been updated, because on every ward round it has to be reviewed and signed and if its no longer needed, then its to be discontinued and stated why.

The patient and relatives might not be prepared, they might not have had the emotional support provided by a counsellor and the patient has a fear of dying which hasnt been approached.

If the news has been kept from either the patient or the relative, or the relative has decided the patient isnt to know and then the patient finds out.

Terminal illness, for example?

And as u can probably gather a good death is the complete opposite to all this and its these deaths, that actually give u an emormous amount of job satisfaction because you know you have done right by that patient, and they died comfortably

I can understand that

[Galant]

Fear of death....

fear is a tricky subject. No-one wants to fear, and certainly no-one wants to fear something when they don't have to. Yet it has to be acknowledged that there are things to be feared.

Christianity has something interesting to say on the subject though. What it says is this,

"If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment." 1 John 4:15-18

The point of Christ's death was that He took the punishment that belonged to us. Therefore, those that are 'in Him' need fear no punishment from God, for Christ already took it. We don't/wont get what we deserve. So, if there is now no punishment or anger in God - what is there to fear?

Death holds no fear, for we find ourselves in the hands of a loving God.

There are things that we will still find unpleasant in this world. For example an unpleasant death. Many Christians throughout history (and many still today) faced torture and very nasty deaths. yet one thing a Christian learns is perspective. The great fears and crippling pains of today seem like nothing through the eyes of tomorrow. The reason so many Christians have been able to endure great suffering is because God was with them, and because they knew that what they would receive after life on earth would so much diminsh what they go through now.

In fact, the suffering of Christians is one very big and persuasive arguments for faith. Many would suggest believers are weak emotionally or mentally, or that they are taking the easy route, or that they lied, or that they are wishful thinkers - yet none of these stand up in the face of men and women suffering persecution, insults, abuse, torture, and death for the very thing that they are suffering for. They could drop it in an instant to take the 'easy way out' but they don't. It's because they know it to be true, because they have experienced God. Unless you want to suggest they're all brain-washed as well. But then you'd have an awful lot of brain-washed, weak, wishful thinking people, in vastly different situations, including some acknowledged great thinkers.

Sorry, got off the point. In Christ there is love, and the closer you move towards love, the further you move away from fear. Are all Christians fearless? No. Are all Christians perfect? No. Christianity isn't an elevator to heaven, or a beam of instant transformation. Christianity is a path you walk down, to God, and with God. And personally speaking, I wouldn't change it for the world, and I will never leave it.

[lynni]

[QUOTE=Howard]Terminal illness, for example? [QUOTE=Howard]

Yeah i only have experience in terminal disease, ive not seen a sudden death yet.

Thats what my problems were on my last placement, we lost 15-20 patients in my first 6 weeks and then a further ten in my second set of six weeks

So i know quite alot about palliative care (terminally ill)

[Galant]

Elmo, my apologies if I've offended you. Not my intention. I'm just trying to engage thoughts and ideas. Most here would hold an evolutionist position, or perhaps more significantly, a non-Christian view. I'm trying to provide an opposite or alternate viewpoint.

I don't mean to disregard or invalidate anyone's opinions or beliefs, but my reply to your post was to question some absolute statements you made. "Evolution proved - Bible no proof". Whether you believe in God or not is up to you, perhaps 'unproveable', but what has or hasn't been definitely proved is, I believe, verifiable.

Just trying to discuss, and do it in an amicable fashion, I am sorry if I haven't managed that.

[Devilbod]

Evolution for me because I have a hairy arse

I could not understand why people believe in religion, but these days a think I understand and I envy them a little becuase without that look on life, that their is a reason behind things, that their is a reason for life in general it can look very empty.
I mean if we are all here by some chemical reaction that occured, it opens up all types of questions, like whats the point?
At a base level Humans as a species are at the top of the food chain, we're in a lot a ways no better than locust, we absorb everything around us and just keep on multiplying. To define ourselfs above animals is to look at our memory and the fact that we are self aware, we question our existance. People look for answers to questions and it's down to the person the type of answers they find either in Science or Religion.
Religion gets a bad name for a lot of wrong reasons, because religion can be used by the power hungry and the greedy as a means of control. You have to remeber that these are people that twist things to there own perpose religion is usally innocent its people that corrupt things.
Another thing that makes me smile is Science is almost a religion these days, people believe that science is telling them the truth even though they are never likely to see it for them selves or fully understand the reasons behind it, as far as I understand it no ones ever seen an actual atom.
Belief is a powerfull thing because it can give you hope, comfort and understanding.

Anyway as Galant say the bible is probably the best form of historical record going, it's just how you interpret it. The world flood for example in all likelyhood did happen, but it depends on what you class as a world event - imagine if theres no TV, Interent or Phones and the entire of the UK floods, your entire World has just flooded. (I love Horizon on BBC 2 ) So it would be recorded as a world event.

On the whole death thing I have no idea, but my Mum's done District (Palliative Care) and Marie Curie (Terminal Cancer Care) work for a long time and it's allways a bit of a good subject (i.e. something we can both talk about without fear) and the things that she has seen (both good and bad deaths) she doesn't believe in God but she does believe in the Soul and sort of looks at the Gia theory, that you soul goes somewhere.

[Russ]

i believe in evolution, why?

Because, because religion IMHO was created for 1 purpose.. control.

before i go any further, i dont wish to offend anybody.

why control you ask? god gave all believers in the OLD testiment laws, 10 of them to start with, 10 simple laws which if every one abided by would cut crime to a minimum... why should god care about crime? what does 1 person loving another person have to do with him? not a lot, but would stop a lot of arguments, wouldnt you agree?

[Elmo]

I understand that but there's a line between discussing and preaching, i'm not too sure if it's a thick or thin line, i guess it varies. I understand that you feel passionately about your religion, as most religious people do. But again, there's that line....

Just on a side point, totally unrelated to the thread, but kinda ties in with my post.
My dad is a born again christian. When i was younger he was the most non religious person ever. Then he remarried and became a born again christian. Now, when i got back in contact with him after 16 years, and i understood about his religion, i made it quite clear that i didnt share his views on religion and that i didnt want him preaching to me (which is what he does in his ceremonies). He understood that and respected this. He may at the end of an email say "god bless you and be with you" or something, but to me, that's fine, he's blessing me.

At the age i am, i dont need, or even want people to throw their religions down my throat. If i want to, and i feel ready to, i'll go out and find the religion that is most similar to my own beliefs that *I* have formed from my experience up to now, not from a book that was written 1.5k years ago. I'm not saying that the bible hasnt got a lot of lifestyle lessons in it that are true etc, i just want to live my life and experience it for myself without the help of a book.

As i said, my posts arent meant to offend, and i'm aware yours werent either, but i felt i had to show my opinion too .

[Russ]

nice post elmo, but can i ask why would yo uever want to go and find a religion that suites you? if you know what you believe in, stick with that

[Elmo]

cos it's fun to find other people who believe in the same things you do. Also, if you have partial beliefs and you find a religion that's similar, why not join it?

[Alex]

The thing about christian 'preaching', is that I don't EVER want to force my religion on anyone. But, if I believe what I believe, which I believe I do () then how can I not at least tell people at least once, so that they can know that it is an 'option' so to speak?

I mean, if its true, and people went to hell because they'd never even really understood the christian message, and I could have made the difference... you see where Im coming from? If people know about christianity, and don't want to discuss it further, then thats fine.

What gets to me at times, is when everyone is so anti-'having religion shoved down your throat', becuase people do do this, that people get upset by even having a discussion on a forum, after all, this is a discussion board!

This isn't a go at what you were saying Elmo, I can see where you are coming from, but its something I see a lot of. Some people are so pushy with their religion that eventually no-one wants to have even a normal civilised discussion about it, and that annoys me.