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Thread: Hackers 'steal entire 2011 census'

  1. #17
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    Re: Hackers 'steal entire 2011 census'

    Quote Originally Posted by Mblaster View Post
    I'm not saying that the article was inaccurate, they reported on a claim that had been made. But in reporting on any claim they give weight to that claim, so out of professionalism and self respect they should make some effort to verify these claims before they re-publish it.

    I think I would do more checks in posting a topic to Hexus that this journalist has done in putting an article on the website of a national newspaper. As I said before, basing your article on a single source, which is an anonymous message board, is hardly thorough journalism. No matter how many 'it is claimed that' and 'allegedly's you put in there.
    The story, though, is not that it's been done, but that it's been claimed to have been done.

    If this were just a case of a wild claim on a single forum, it wouldn't be a story, but when it's been giving some official credibility by the authorities making statements on it, then it's a story. But at this point, it's a story that a claim has been made and is being taken seriously enough to be investigated by the authorities, who are also saying they have no evidence that there is any truth in it. Of course, if they haven't checked yet, presumably there's no evidence that there isn't anything to it, either.

    Nor is the article (in the Telegraph) based on a single source. It's based on, for example, :-

    - the claim itself
    - the arrest by the police, allegedly linked to it
    - a statement from the Office of National Statistics that they are investigating
    - the comment from the prime IT contractor (Lockheed Martin) that they are preparing a statement.


    However you cut it, journalistically, this is a story, even if it's a story, at the moment, about claims that the Census has been hacked, not that it has been.

    The requirement on journalists (or rather, responsible ones, not the "Freddie Starr ate my hamster" or "Martians invade Peckham" variety who are not, in my view, journalists at all) is to fact-check. It's the responsibility for a couple of reasons. First, to not mislead readers with inaccurate claims offact. Second, because getting that wrong can have unpleasant legal consequences for both journalist and publisher.

    But what are the facts in this story?

    1) A claim has been made.
    2) The police arrested an alleged hacker
    3) The ONS are investigating
    4) LM are preparing a statement ... and so on.

    Is there any suggestion that these facts are incorrect? And even if they are, the responsibility only goes so far, because often, you can only check facts so far, and not to the point of absolute certainty. If, for instance, and ONS press officer says "we're investigating" it's not incumbent on the journalist to ensure they actually are doing so before publishing in the story that they said they are, because they did say they are.

    There is, therefore, an element of latitude in this, and it's a judgement call as to when to publish and when not to.

    Another factor would be the predictable effects of publishing weighed against the level of checking possible. It would, for instance, be highly irresponsible to publish a story that Al Qaeda have hidden a suitcase nuke in the centre of London, and are going to detonate it in 60 minutes, because if coming from an even half-way credible source, it would likely cause panic, and probably result in injury of even deaths in the resultant scramble. The consequences of mere publication could have serious results.

    On the other hand, publishing a story of a claimed hack has no such consequences, so the results are trivial. And in-between, publication of allegations of, say, criminal activity by a public official may be very much in the public's interest, because it probably forces a public acknowledgement of the accusation by the authorities, and forces an investigation where otherwise none may happen, and even forces a reaction that otherwise may have been swept under the carpet. An example of that might well be the Telegraph's publication of MPs actual expense claims, not the highly limited and sanitised versions the authorities wanted to release, after they'd been thoroughly neutralised. Would we have had the expenses scandal, and the clean-up (such as it is) without that Telegraph expose? I don't think so.

    It is, therefore, always a complex call, albeit that this particular example is a trivial illustration of it. There are potential safety impacts, there are potential legal impacts, and there's the national interest.

    And, of course, there's also an commercial element. In can never be forgotten that scoops sell papers, or drive net traffic, and most news organisations are, like it or not, profit-making bodies.

    But before you condemn the profit motive too quickly, think about it. What is the alternative? A government-funded news agency with sole responsibility for deciding what we can and can't know about? Would the MP's expenses story have got past it's editor? Would it hell.

    Journalism, and I mean real journalism, is expensive. Even if you take a small outfit like HEXUS, staff still expect to get paid. After all, they have to eat, pay rent/mortgage and buy clothes for the kids, etc. How much more so the Telegraph? Or the BBC? It costs real, serious money in very large quantities to acquire stories, to vet and research and verify them, and finally but not least, write them up. If the profit incentive is not going to fund all this, just what is?

    So yes, newspapers and websites are going to write stories in ways that, hopefully, sell copies and generate traffic. Not only should you not expect anything else, but it really wouldn't be in our (the public's) interest were it not the case.

    So .... you just have to decide how much flavour you want in your poison? Every paper has an angle, a style. Some are far more sensationalist than others. But ALL are trying to stay afloat in a climate of very hard times, not just because of the economy, but because there are huge pressures on papers, not least from free (and far cheaper to run) websites. Commercial pressures, and an element of salesmanship in headlines, in utterly unavoidable. It's a reality of business life.

    But it's not just that, in relation to headline writing. They have to be written in such a way as to grab attention, in a way that people can take in the content at a glance, because that's all most of us do with headlines .... glance. If you are too pedantic in how you word it, you lose the ability to convey that snap impression that gets people to read, or click. An extra couple of words can make all the difference. Hence the tradition for quotes, which in translation means "it's been said/claimed that ....".

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    Re: Hackers 'steal entire 2011 census'

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    ....or to go with the apostrophe cop-out: 'Hackers 'steal entire 2011 census''
    It's not a cop-out. It's a long-standing tradition, and it's one reinforced in many style guides. I can probably dig some out from papers if you want. I've got them somewhere.

    It's something many, maybe most, papers have done for .... well, I've been writing for them for more than two decades and it pre-dates me.

    The problem is when some people don't understand them. Or, maybe in some cases, chose not to.

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    Re: Hackers 'steal entire 2011 census'

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    To be clear, the OP is only copying the Telegraph's headline, so the fault really lies with the Telegraph and they were the target of my comment. However the OP perhaps inadvertently falls foul of exactly the same thing by not saying "Telegraph claim: Hackers 'steal entire 2011 census" or to go with the apostrophe cop-out: 'Hackers 'steal entire 2011 census''
    Also the OP commented from the title, rather than from their first paragraph....
    Quote Originally Posted by old_not_quite_a_racist_person_paper
    The entire 2011 UK census database has been stolen by hackers and will be published online, it has been claimed.
    Basically they admit its probably bullcrap, but know so little about this internet culture thing, they don't want to be the last to report on it.
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  4. #20
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    Re: Hackers 'steal entire 2011 census'

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    It's not a cop-out. It's a long-standing tradition, and it's one reinforced in many style guides. I can probably dig some out from papers if you want. I've got them somewhere.

    It's something many, maybe most, papers have done for .... well, I've been writing for them for more than two decades and it pre-dates me.
    So it's a long standing, traditional and style guide reinforced cop-out, in my opinion

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    Re: Hackers 'steal entire 2011 census'

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    So it's a long standing, traditional and style guide reinforced cop-out, in my opinion
    That's the wonderful thing about opinions - we're all entitled to them ..... even when you're wrong.

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    Re: Hackers 'steal entire 2011 census'

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    It's not a cop-out. It's a long-standing tradition, and it's one reinforced in many style guides. I can probably dig some out from papers if you want. I've got them somewhere.

    It's something many, maybe most, papers have done for .... well, I've been writing for them for more than two decades and it pre-dates me.

    The problem is when some people don't understand them. Or, maybe in some cases, chose not to.
    Or read beyond the headline.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    Also the OP commented from the title, rather than from their first paragraph....
    Basically they admit its probably bullcrap, but know so little about this internet culture thing, they don't want to be the last to report on it.
    True, and if the claim is verified, they can then cite themselves as having reported it!

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    So it's a long standing, traditional and style guide reinforced cop-out, in my opinion
    Not at all, here is a good guide to the use of quotation marks here, and while that is from an academic paper point of view, the basic rules are still true in every day life. The quotes indicate that they are reporting someone else's work or opinion or actions, not their own.
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    Re: Hackers 'steal entire 2011 census'

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    Not at all, here is a good guide to the use of quotation marks here, and while that is from an academic paper point of view, the basic rules are still true in every day life.
    I don't understand how that has any relevance We're not discussing the correct grammatical use of quotation marks, but the use of quotes in a headline - where there is no room to provide a source - to use a phrase uttered by anyone they like to make a sensational, factual sounding newsbit. Grammatically correct or not, it's a cop-out.

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    Re: Hackers 'steal entire 2011 census'

    If it was a fact, the single quotes wouldn't be there. The quotes in the headline indicate a distancing of the paper from the report.

    As for the guide to the use of quotation marks, writing in a good, clear style is never irrelevant!
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    Re: Hackers 'steal entire 2011 census'

    The issues I have with the current usage of quotation marks in a headline (for me) are:

    - Its over use, particularly since the BBC (I think it was) got penalised for reporting something that could not be proven as fact a few years ago. Now so many news outlets err on the side of caution for fear of legal penalty and use them where they previously wouldn't, their value has been decreased. I find I don't know whether what is being stated is just a claim or simply something that can't be cast-iron garaunteed and the news outlet is covering themselves for legal risk.

    - When it is not a direct quotation of the claim being made (like in this instance)

    - When it is used in to make a sensational headline, which doesn't match the content of the main article (like in this instance)

    - When it is used as a shortcut to reporting a story without checking sources / considering validity of claims etc.

  10. #26
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    Re: Hackers 'steal entire 2011 census'

    Quote Originally Posted by GheeTsar View Post
    ....

    - When it is not a direct quotation of the claim being made (like in this instance)

    - When it is used in to make a sensational headline, which doesn't match the content of the main article (like in this instance)
    ....
    But it does match the story, which is that it's been claimed that hacker's hacked the census, not that they have. The story puts the claims in context, and the headline can't effectively do that given the constraints on headlines. That context is that there's very little (or no) evidence that the claims are true, that the group apparently denies it anyway, and that the authorities are investigating.

    That it's being taken seriously enough to merit the investigation is, at this stage, the story. If it were to prove out as the claims being true (very doubtful, IMHO) that would be another, and far, FAR bigger story.

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    Re: Hackers 'steal entire 2011 census'

    The paper do seem to be taking liberties with that particular story/claim in their headlines:

    " Hackers 'steal entire 2011 census' as police arrest teenager "
    " British teenager arrested over 'census hacking' "


    It's strongly implied it has happened, particularly the last one. The media has always been a bit..."sensationalist > all" though, so it comes as no surprise.

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    Re: Hackers 'steal entire 2011 census'

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    But it does match the story, which is that it's been claimed that hacker's hacked the census, not that they have. The story puts the claims in context, and the headline can't effectively do that given the constraints on headlines. That context is that there's very little (or no) evidence that the claims are true, that the group apparently denies it anyway, and that the authorities are investigating.
    The story is balanced enough and includes the context, but the headline implies a greater level of certainty than follows in the story itself; thereby appearing overly sensational (to me at any rate).

    In this story, some party claiming to be a hacker group, claim to have stolen all the 2011 census data, with a spokesperson from the hacker group in question denying they made the claim. This is presented in this headline as the hacking group have definitely made a claim or quotation that has not yet been confirmed to be true. Hence why I believe it doesn't match the story.

    I recognise the contraints on headlines, but I think in this instance as the claim had been denied and the scale of the claim in question there should have been more restraint or qualification.

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    Re: Hackers 'steal entire 2011 census'

    So suggestions please (to anyone) as to how it could have been worded without it being seen as sensationalist.

    My tuppence worth

    Hackers claim to have downloaded cebnsus detail not verified

    or

    Census details not yet shown to be hacked

    Its a bit loke the fake headline "Fire in sheep shelter - no-one killed".

    The headline is to grab attention so you read the trest of the story. Quoting the headline in isolation puts it out of context and is misleading.
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    Re: Hackers 'steal entire 2011 census'

    Isn't this just <> poor journalism all round?

    And <> poor that its gone on so far, and so far repeated. In this case it appeared that OP took the headline as the fact.
    Last edited by peterb; 22-06-2011 at 06:56 PM. Reason: You know why!
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    Re: Hackers 'steal entire 2011 census'

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    So suggestions please (to anyone) as to how it could have been worded without it being seen as sensationalist.
    "2011 Census data theft claim"

  16. #32
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    Re: Hackers 'steal entire 2011 census'

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    So suggestions please (to anyone) as to how it could have been worded without it being seen as sensationalist.
    Earlier story:
    Hackers claim 2011 census stolen

    Later story:
    Hackers deny 2011 census claim

    Simple, short, still enough to make you read more.

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