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Thread: RBS Bonuses

  1. #97
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    Re: RBS Bonuses

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    He's certainly entitled to force a vote. He gets the Opposition day motion and can use it pretty much as he wishes.

    Whether he'd have won is much more up for debate. What would the govt whips have done, and who would have defied them? What LibDems feel. by and large, is pretty obvious, but would they risk a government defeat that might split the coalition, over this? I'd have thought it's doubtful that enough would. And unless either quite a few of them vote against, or a load of Tories do, EM simply doesn't have the numbers to win. He can stir the pot, but without a gov't back-bench revolt, can't choose the day's menu.
    True, but realistically, the LibDems would have been given carte blanche to do what they liked as there were already a good number of Tory backbencher’s ready to vote with EM, according to most political commentators. And DC would not have wanted to be seen defying public opinion. My guess is that there would have been a spate of abstainers from the Tory side, and EM would have won a close call.

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    Re: RBS Bonuses

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    When those people earning all those moniez caused the economy to collapse in on itself , put millions out of work. Your damn right this has a lot more to do on a social level which is exactly why 'your just jealous' doesn't cut the mustard, no matter why synonym is used or however you write it, there is a lot more involved in this than basic envy and i find it insulting and frustrating to see people brush off others opinions based on it.
    That's a strawman at best. The economy could NOT have faltered if people hadn't leveraged debt and 'equity' to fund a lifestyle they couldn't afford. Now that's come crashing down they're in denial and lashing out in a rage at the partner in crime - the lenders. If people didn't borrow above their means this wouldn't, couldn't have happened. People were living unsustainable lives and reality has come around and ripped them a new one.


    Now that is out of the way, we're still no further forward on addressing the reality that anyone's 'insane' wage is not 'insane' to the next man. I could probably dig out a quote that would frame £40k per annum "silly" money or "insane". Personally I don't think that's true, but there we go.

    Loads of people are angry, not many are angry for the right reasons.

    My personal opinion (as I'm sure I've stated before) is that now is not the time for anger, now is the time to get the mess sorted out. Right now too many are in denial and too busy looking for someone else to blame but themselves. When is it acceptance comes again?

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    Re: RBS Bonuses

    Quote Originally Posted by roachcoach View Post
    Loads of people are angry, not many are angry for the right reasons.

    My personal opinion (as I'm sure I've stated before) is that now is not the time for anger, now is the time to get the mess sorted out.
    ^^This.
    Society's to blame,
    Or possibly Atari.

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    Re: RBS Bonuses

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Not entirely. I've seen plenty of TV talking heads, for instance, that categorise it as "unfair", while absolutely failing to address why they concentrate on Hester (who, after all, wasn't responsible for the problems), and not on many other groups and individuals (like what Ross what getting at the Beeb), or addressing who gets to decide what's fair and what isn't.
    But the beep have never been percieved as having contributed massively to a recession have they? Like I said earlier, in the good times, noone was talking about Bankers bonuses, and for Hester, you could replace his name with whoever had taken over RBS. (although I actually think there was quite a furore about Ross' pay at the time?)


    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Someone condemning Hester's pay as 'unfair', while having no idea of what he actually does or how good he is at it, and I'd bet the vast majority of people have no idea of that, seems naive at best, and does very much smack of envy.
    I disagree. I think that someone would look at Fred Goodwin’s salary and pension (that's why I used him as an example previously), and draw from that what you do, or how good you are at it, actually has very little bearing on how much you earn from the banking world. That’s the hangover from what went on before, and until that is addressed, the genuine anger won’t go away.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    I know what the public are angry about. I just think they're directing it at the wrong person .... egged on by politicians that did have a role to play in what went wrong. Hester didn't.
    This I do agree with. That's why I said that, if he cares about the public opinion, he should state his case. As for the politicians, well they’re politicians!

  6. #101
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    Re: RBS Bonuses

    Quote Originally Posted by opel80uk View Post
    But the beep have never been percieved as having contributed massively to a recession have they?
    Quite true. The public are too busy blaming a shadowy illuminati. We should be looking at how to build a better system than trying to focus on a few individuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by opel80uk View Post
    I disagree. I think that someone would look at Fred Goodwin’s salary and pension (that's why I used him as an example previously), and draw from that what you do, or how good you are at it, actually has very little bearing on how much you earn from the banking world. That’s the hangover from what went on before, and until that is addressed, the genuine anger won’t go away.
    This sounds like an induction based on one individual and extended to cover a large group that doesn't exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by opel80uk View Post
    This I do agree with. That's why I said that, if he cares about the public opinion, he should state his case.
    How do you know he didn't make a full case and justification to the performance review panel ? It would seem that people want to have a direct hand in his pay, when they don't know what he does, or have the knowledge to be able to determine how good he is. The response is simply that they don't believe that anyone is worth that much.
    Perhaps the right thing to be would be to run RBS as a 'State Bank', rather than the half-hearted semi-private thing we have now.
    Society's to blame,
    Or possibly Atari.

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    Re: RBS Bonuses

    Quote Originally Posted by Phage View Post
    And to clarify.
    You have no idea what my politics or 'attitude' are, and seem to be looking for an adversary. Something I have no wish to imvolved in. However, please be aware I am not dismissing it as simple jealousy, I'm saying that it is the politics of envy, a more complex idea of motivation.
    Well, I’m not looking for adversary for starters, I’m not sure where you picked that up from as I also quoted Saracen. And I don’t, and never claimed to, know what your politics are but, in all respect, by posting…..


    Quote Originally Posted by Phage View Post
    The politics of envy have truly taken over, and I expect to see more and more of this unformed bile against anyone who is not an avowed member of the 'ordinary'. The problem being is that there is no clear definition of that group, other than 'Anyone who earns more than I do' .
    ….. it seems, to me at least, and apologies if I am reading it wrong, that you are implying that a lot of the anger is jealousy towards those who earn more, from those who earn less, and I think that I can garner some idea of your attitude on this subject based on that and what else you’ve posted, just as you can with me and what I’ve posted?


    Quote Originally Posted by Phage View Post
    It would seem that people want to have a direct hand in his pay, when they don't know what he does, or have the knowledge to be able to determine how good he is. The response is simply that they don't believe that anyone is worth that much.
    So if that’s the case, where is the outrage at what Pharmaceutical companies CEO’s get, or Telecommunications CEO’s, or Royal Dutch Shell’s CEO, or Rafa Nadal, or……. Just about anyone who earns more in a year than your average person will in a lifetime? At some point you have to ask why it is people feel this way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phage View Post
    Perhaps the right thing to be would be to run RBS as a 'State Bank', rather than the half-hearted semi-private thing we have now.
    Well I do happen to think it should have been either completely nationalised, or let go Bankrupt.

  8. #103
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    Re: RBS Bonuses

    Quote Originally Posted by opel80uk View Post
    Well, I’m not looking for adversary for starters, I’m not sure where you picked that up from as I also quoted Saracen. And I don’t, and never claimed to, know what your politics are but, in all respect, by posting…..
    But you did claim to know what my attitude was. Your posts do appear to be quite confrontational when read.

    Quote Originally Posted by opel80uk View Post
    ….. it seems, to me at least, and apologies if I am reading it wrong, that you are implying that a lot of the anger is jealousy towards those who earn more, from those who earn less, and I think that I can garner some idea of your attitude on this subject based on that and what else you’ve posted, just as you can with me and what I’ve posted? …..
    Er no.
    Look at Max Weber said.
    And again - you don't know what my attitude is. Mostly it's curiosity.

    Quote Originally Posted by opel80uk View Post
    So if that’s the case, where is the outrage at what Pharmaceutical companies CEO’s get, or Telecommunications CEO’s, or Royal Dutch Shell’s CEO, or Rafa Nadal, or……. Just about anyone who earns more in a year than your average person will in a lifetime? At some point you have to ask why it is people feel this way. …..
    Indeed I am. I have no idea why people are fixated on these shadowy figures. Why aren't you railing at the others ? Why do you feel that these 'bankers' are to blame for everything ? Who are these Grendels lurking in the undergrowth ?

    I suspect that the situation is far more complicated than that. I suspect that the anger and fixation is symptomatic of a deeper problem with this society, and that presenting an imaginary scapegoat for all the world's ills is very common historically. Hence my earlier post about the 1930's.
    Society's to blame,
    Or possibly Atari.

  9. #104
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    Re: RBS Bonuses

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Don't [ quote] my comment out of context, but look at it in the context of the remark I quoted ...
    I quoted message number 71, and I cannot see how I’ve taken what you said there out of context. Don’t know where the other stuff you claim to have said came from … but I am a late-comer to this thread.

    As for the public’s RBS shares being owned by UKFI, not by us, that’s a fine distinction. A legal fiction for politicians to hide behind, perhaps.

    I have to accept your interpretation of what was said in Newsnight – I have not reviewed the programme. I reported what I understood was said; your correction shows that people might want what I said they did want – an efficient bank providing basic services. I believe a great many people want that for RBS more than anything else. It would be good if we got our money back, of course, but few realistically expect it. RBS is selling off subsidiaries, you say, in order to restructure itself. I wonder how well RBS is doing, or is it just cutting off loss-makers? How much profit is it making from the sale of its English branches to Santander? What about its aircraft leasing company? Does it really need Churchill and Direct Line? After all, if I were a potential buyer, I would know RBS have got to sell and I would make sure I paid no more than I needed to.

    If we realise, as I contend, that we won’t get our money back, then let’s shape the bank the way we want it to be, efficient and customer-focused, not shareholder-focused, nor focused on providing traders and dealers mind-boggling rewards. Let’s turn RBS into the bank Allister Heath described, run on straightforward lines with staff earning civil service salaries and looking forward to civil service pensions. If you don’t want to use it, fine, go to Barclays or HSBC, pay their fees and commissions, and pray they don’t go bust one day.

    There’s nothing wrong with state-run banks. I believe some are quite efficient, and if the RBS provides a simple and effective service and is run on the simple philosophy of borrowing long and lending short, it could become Everyman’s Bank. I know I would use it. I am very dissatisfied with the banking services I receive now and have on more than one occasion been on the verge of closing my account. Only the fact that my employer pays me through the banking system and my utility companies penalise me for using cash has stopped me so far, but I know others who are prepared to accept that consequence. So maybe …

    You might see me as refusing to accept progress, but I prefer to think that I want a particular service, while the banks expect me to use (and pay handsomely for) a different one which in no way meets my requirements.

    I have been asked how I would change the system. I can’t answer that – I don’t have the expertise. That’s why I didn’t apply for Hester’s job. But, in principle, I am not in the least averse to the outright nationalisation of the whole banking system. Well, maybe leave the Co-op Bank to operate freely because some people believe an element of competition is vital to a healthy economy. I don’t see it myself – a monopoly is not precluded from efficiency simply because it is a monopoly - but let’s allow the Co-op to provide that element of healthy rivalry, just in case.

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    Re: RBS Bonuses

    Quote Originally Posted by MMI View Post
    I quoted message number 71, and I cannot see how I’ve taken what you said there out of context. Don’t know where the other stuff you claim to have said came from … but I am a late-comer to this thread.....
    The reason I said it was out of context is because the bit you quoted was a direct response to another post, and neither were about RBS, but about a generic "a public company", with the assertion that
    In the case of a private limited company it can either be distributed to the employees, or be invested in expanding the company

    In the case of a public limited company, the money would be distributed to the shareholders (i.e. the public at large) and would be spend as the public sees fit, instead of having to have some kind of trickle down economy effectively living on the crumbs of the filthy rich.
    .
    My point is that it being a public company doesn't mean it belongs to the public, and that the "public" do not determine how money distributed would be spent. Shareholders do. In this specific case, yes, the majority of the shares are owned, indirectly, by the public, but RBS is one company not "a public company" in general.

    In other words, I wasn't talking about RBS with the remark you quoted. I was responding to another comment which also wasn't.

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    Re: RBS Bonuses

    Just to clarify the post in bold Saracen, I should have said shareholders. What I meant by that was shareholders would (I assume) receive a payout of the profits, or an increase in the value of the shares they own. I'm not quite sure what happens to the profit exactly in terms of shareholders. However the fundemental point is it does go to the shareholder to spend as they see fit, instead of an unproportionally wealthy group, in order to finance an extravagant lifestyle, maintained on the back of services and goods they pay for with money I don't believe they should be entitled too.

    "Yes you can have the money, but only once I've paid for my privileged lifestyle" isn't the fair trickle down system they like to promote, distributing it more evenly in the first place is a more direct and effectively way of tackling social inequality.

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    Re: RBS Bonuses

    Quote Originally Posted by cptwhite_uk View Post
    Just to clarify the post in bold Saracen, I should have said shareholders. What I meant by that was shareholders would (I assume) receive a payout of the profits, or an increase in the value of the shares they own. I'm not quite sure what happens to the profit exactly in terms of shareholders. However the fundemental point is it does go to the shareholder to spend as they see fit, instead of an unproportionally wealthy group, in order to finance an extravagant lifestyle, maintained on the back of services and goods they pay for with money I don't believe they should be entitled too.

    "Yes you can have the money, but only once I've paid for my privileged lifestyle" isn't the fair trickle down system they like to promote, distributing it more evenly in the first place is a more direct and effectively way of tackling social inequality.
    Fair enough. That clarifies that.

    To refer, then, specifically to RBS, for several years (more or less since the crash) there have been no dividends, other than to the limited number of preferential shareholders, under those arrangements. But none to either the ordinary or B shares, as I understand it, that we the public (indirectly) hold as shareholders. Or to any other ordinary or B holders either. And a large proportion of 'shareholders' are, in any event, the big institutions, like all our pension funds.

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    Re: RBS Bonuses

    Just as you would expect from a company losing money hand over fist within that financial period

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