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Thread: Students should face paying council tax, Lib Dems say

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    Re: Students should face paying council tax, Lib Dems say

    Quote Originally Posted by roachcoach View Post
    Do we not have many, many more people attending and are running into serious funding issues? I wasn't under them impression that it was a spiteful/'because we can' thing, more a (fairly severe) financial issue?
    Doesn't change the level of hypocrisy in some peoples tones

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    Re: Students should face paying council tax, Lib Dems say

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    That's mostly because research jobs are so underfunded, badly-paid and hard to come by that most Social Science Dr.s can't afford running water or new clothes

    And I'm not being entirely flippant there, either. Same applies to most research jobs. The well-paid ones tend to be highly technical and require a lot more practical experience that academic excellence - to get onto the academic research ladder, even with a PhD, you have to start pretty low down the scale and scrap your way up...
    Yeah, which is pretty backwards considering the fruits of such research is the engine of future economic growth. Meanwhile, useless money bureaucrats get mega pay, and mega bonuses, in exchange for doing nothing of any practical worth for society. Any old crook can magic money out of thin air and lend it out, all it requires is some bookmaking and thugs to enforce it.

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    Only if those people are a) equipped to do that in the first place, and b) taught well whilst getting that university education. The sheer volume of people going to university now means that neither of those postulates holds. We are giving sub-standard candidates a sub-standard education, and screwing over the good candidates into the mix. Higher education is not currently serving its intended purpose in this country.

    hmmm, I appear to have climbed back on my soapbox! Sorry
    I agree with completely, there's massive room for improvement in the education system in general, and the higher education system specifically.
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    Re: Students should face paying council tax, Lib Dems say

    Quote Originally Posted by roachcoach View Post
    My point was simply 'culture' or contribution thereof is not (and never has been) dependent on going to university.
    Absolutely, and I agree with that, but I think it's worth making the counterpoint that a lot of contributions to UK culture have grown from skills learned and associations made whilst at university. So you can't say that contribution to culture is entirely independent of going to university either.

    Quote Originally Posted by aidanjt View Post
    Yeah, which is pretty backwards considering the fruits of such research is the engine of future economic growth.
    Absolutely. When I left uni, I got an admin job for a couple of years to put some money away. I not only found it easier to get a job than my scientist friends who wanted to go into research, but I also earned very nearly as much as they were hoping to, for a job that required 5 GCSEs as minimum entrance requirements. Backwards doesn't cover it - I think it's fallen through a hole into another dimension (which is ironic really, because we dont' spend enough on research to determine why or how ).


    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by BobF64 View Post
    Whos future though? the students or the countrys?
    I think the answer to that, as with so many things, is "a bit of both". Personally I'd like to see less students, course fees properly funded by the government, but students supporting themselves through with a mixture of loans and part-time work (which may require a rethink to the traditional university terms/holidays). That way money comes in from both sides.

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    Re: Students should face paying council tax, Lib Dems say

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    I think the answer to that, as with so many things, is "a bit of both". Personally I'd like to see less students, course fees properly funded by the government, but students supporting themselves through with a mixture of loans and part-time work (which may require a rethink to the traditional university terms/holidays). That way money comes in from both sides.
    Thing is, if there were fewer students, there would already be ample part-time work available for them without even needing to muck around with holidays and so on. There's already a lot available in a decent-sized town, but there are just way too many students for it to be sufficient.

    It's perfectly possible to hold down a 1 day a week part-time job during term-time and work in the holidays as well. Even if you can't get work in the holidays, at about £50 per day, that's around £1500 per year... added to a sensible student loan (the current ones are not sensible), it'd be fine.

    And if you're going to struggle that much, take a gap year. By gap year of course, I mean getting a job, not throwing away all your money on a round-trip of the world.

    The only logical answer is to cut the number of students.

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    Re: Students should face paying council tax, Lib Dems say

    Quote Originally Posted by snootyjim View Post
    The only logical answer is to cut the number of students.
    A lot of influential people in academic circles are starting to say exactly that. Problem is, you need something to do with the tens of thousands of 18 year olds leaving school who will otherwise just be straight on the dole...

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    Re: Students should face paying council tax, Lib Dems say

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    A lot of influential people in academic circles are starting to say exactly that. Problem is, you need something to do with the tens of thousands of 18 year olds leaving school who will otherwise just be straight on the dole...
    I'm not convinced it's a whole lot better chucking them in a university for three years, getting them blind drunk and then giving them a piece of paper with 3rd written on it.

    If they turned all of the pointless unis back into polys it would probably help.

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    Re: Students should face paying council tax, Lib Dems say

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    A lot of influential people in academic circles are starting to say exactly that. Problem is, you need something to do with the tens of thousands of 18 year olds leaving school who will otherwise just be straight on the dole...
    Mandatory unpaid military service.

    I'm sure theres plenty of spare military personnel that could be employed to wake them up at 7am and shout at them for 8 hours.

    By the time they were done, youd have a wonderfully prepared and efficient work force.

    But probably still no jobs for them.

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    Re: Students should face paying council tax, Lib Dems say

    Quote Originally Posted by BobF64 View Post
    Mandatory unpaid military service.
    A slave army? You can't be serious.
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    Re: Students should face paying council tax, Lib Dems say

    Quote Originally Posted by aidanjt View Post
    A slave army? You can't be serious.
    To be fair Aidan, it worked for Nazi Germany.

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    Re: Students should face paying council tax, Lib Dems say

    Quote Originally Posted by BobF64 View Post
    Mandatory unpaid military service.

    I'm sure theres plenty of spare military personnel that could be employed to wake them up at 7am and shout at them for 8 hours.

    By the time they were done, youd have a wonderfully prepared and efficient work force.

    But probably still no jobs for them.
    Hasn't seemed to work for Greece!
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    Re: Students should face paying council tax, Lib Dems say

    Mandatory paid military service isnt such a bad idea IMO, there are a few chavs with a lot negative energy around here and if somehow that negative energy could be channelled into something positive it would be a win win for everyone.

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    Re: Students should face paying council tax, Lib Dems say

    Quote Originally Posted by DeludedGuy View Post
    Mandatory paid military service isnt such a bad idea IMO, there are a few chavs with a lot negative energy around here and if somehow that negative energy could be channelled into something positive it would be a win win for everyone.
    So make it a punitive option for young offenders. Jail or military service. Forcing people into the military is unethical.
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    Re: Students should face paying council tax, Lib Dems say

    Quote Originally Posted by snootyjim View Post
    If they turned all of the pointless unis back into polys it would probably help.
    it'd be a start. The Tories announced ~ 10,000 apprenticeships at the October conference last year (I was actually at the speech where John Hayes announced it). It's a vague step in the right direction, but nowhere near enough, IMNSHO. Having a practical version of HE would make a lot more sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobF64 View Post
    Mandatory unpaid military service.
    Yes, let's put a load of high grade military equipment in the hands of enthusiastic youngsters than tell them they're going to get a bunk bed, 3 meals and sod all else. That can only end well

    Quote Originally Posted by DeludedGuy View Post
    Mandatory paid military service isnt such a bad idea IMO, there are a few chavs with a lot negative energy around here and if somehow that negative energy could be channelled into something positive it would be a win win for everyone.
    Military service simply doesn't suit a lot of people, particularly the ones who like asking questions - which is the type who'd probably be thinking of going to uni anyway. Some form of paid (as in accommodation, meals and a small stipend) national service would be a good option, but I'd like to see a civilian option in there as well.

    In fact, realistically you need a combination of options for young adults: give them a choice of practical experience (civilian or military), vocationally focussed learning (apprenticeships/polytechnic) or academically rigourous education (university). It's not rocket science (except for few of them, I guess ) - provide options that will benefit the most young people possible *and* persuade them to become a benefit to society in general. But alas, common sense really isn't, any more.

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    Re: Students should face paying council tax, Lib Dems say

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    Yes, let's put a load of high grade military equipment in the hands of enthusiastic youngsters than tell them they're going to get a bunk bed, 3 meals and sod all else. That can only end well
    Why ever would you give them access to the good stuff?

    You just do all the marching and drilling stuff, no tanks, no guns, no deployment.

    And I wasnt thinking of it as a slave army, more like boarding school, you dont get paid to go to school after all. Pay a small amount of spending money per week (paid from future earnings, so an advance, so still unpaid), and provide everything else.

    Oh wait, they used to do this and called it "National Service".

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    Re: Students should face paying council tax, Lib Dems say

    Quote Originally Posted by BobF64 View Post
    Oh wait, they used to do this and called it "National Service".
    Which was a necessary evil during both world wars, and they got paid for it. The world isn't at war anymore, and it's not the 20th century anymore. The world has moved on.
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    Re: Students should face paying council tax, Lib Dems say

    Quote Originally Posted by BobF64 View Post
    Mandatory unpaid military service.
    Quote Originally Posted by BobF64 View Post
    Pay a small amount of spending money per week
    So, paid then?

    Quote Originally Posted by BobF64 View Post
    (paid from future earnings, so an advance, so still unpaid)
    Ah, so unpaid in an overly complicated way! And exactly how much is that going to cost to adminster? In a country that can't even efficiently adminster a loans system for students! I hate to think...

    Quote Originally Posted by BobF64 View Post
    Why ever would you give them access to the good stuff?

    You just do all the marching and drilling stuff, no tanks, no guns, no deployment.
    So how's that meant to help, exactly? What's the benefit to society? May as well just send them all to prison, afaict ... you're not actually suggesting they do anything productive, or in any way better themselves or society. I do believe that when we had National Service they actually taught people to fight, so they could be of use if they were needed...

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