Hydrogen is expensive to produce right?

[scaryjim]

Because you wear less clothes and shoes when you drive?

I find that *extremely* unlikely, to be honest. Even when I'm walking a lot (i.e. >10miles a day) I only go through maybe one extra pair of trainers a year - I don't go through any extra clothes, and I'm not sure what you mean by shelter, tbh - if it starts really chucking it down you hide next to a building or under a tree!

Walking is for short travel distances - up to about 5 miles. Anywhere from 3 - 20 miles you can bike. More than 20 miles you'd probably use public transport. You *can* manage a normal everyday life with a mix of those three (plus perhaps the odd taxi thrown in) and getting a variety of stuff delivered to your home (delivery is more efficient than using your own car to go shopping, generally speaking). I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I really don't think car ownership is a sustainable model of transportation any more, and the quicker people realise that the better, IMNSHO...

[kalniel]

As I understand it, the "greenest" thing you can do with respect to cars is just to keep the same one for as long as possible, and avoid buying a new one. Probably doesn't hold for really old cars that don't have fuel injection or are very inefficient, but I think most of the environmental cost is in manufacture, not day-to-day running.

Obviously there are probably exceptions to this, if you do a *lot* of mileage, etc etc, but I suspect for most people it's true.

Well that depends what happens to your old car, and where your new car comes from etc. A car changing hands isn't inherently bad for the environment

Very few people need to drive, the main problem is lack of an efficient mass transit system. If you work in central London, you would be stupid to drive there. Unless you decide not to live in the town where you work (even then, people commute via train all the time) then having a car is only necessary when you can't get there by bus.

Indeed. Sadly my 27 mile commute is not well serviced by public transport. I *can* do it, but it adds 4 hours a day to my commuting :/ I'd love to live nearer where I work, but sadly a state of nimbyism means I can't afford to (and now my wife works in the opposite direction anyway).

[Whiternoise]

Because you wear less clothes and shoes when you drive?

I find that *extremely* unlikely, to be honest. Even when I'm walking a lot (i.e. >10miles a day) I only go through maybe one extra pair of trainers a year - I don't go through any extra clothes, and I'm not sure what you mean by shelter, tbh - if it starts really chucking it down you hide next to a building or under a tree!

Walking is for short travel distances - up to about 5 miles. Anywhere from 3 - 20 miles you can bike. More than 20 miles you'd probably use public transport. You *can* manage a normal everyday life with a mix of those three (plus perhaps the odd taxi thrown in) and getting a variety of stuff delivered to your home (delivery is more efficient than using your own car to go shopping, generally speaking). I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I really don't think car ownership is a sustainable model of transportation any more, and the quicker people realise that the better, IMNSHO...

Interesting point about home delivery, I never thought about it like that. It depends who you order from though, Tesco have an insanely inefficient business model. Their warehouse is literally a big Tesco and people mill around filling up bags. Ocado, on the other hand is almost totally automated. I normally get the bus to the local Sainsbury or there's a Co-op round the corner that's just big enough for a weekly shop.

Most people would cry that they can't get their kids to school without driving them in a Chelsea tractor..

[scaryjim]

We do our day to day shopping locally, and once a month or so put in a big Ocado order for all the heavy things we don't want to carry around. About two or three times a year I'll hire a car, and when we have the car we do as much as we possibly can that needs it. With the ease of buying things online and having them turn up at your door nowadays there's very little reason to own a car. If only we could get more employers being proactive about homeworking, there'd be even less reason...

[Phage]

If only we could get more employers being proactive about homeworking, there'd be even less reason...

^This. Then I could sell the car....and buy my Paul Smart replica.

[Marcos]

. If only we could get more employers being proactive about homeworking, there'd be even less reason...

good point

[scaryjim]

Homeworking's another big soapbox issue of mine, I'm afraid - please hit me in the face with a wet kipper if I go off on one

[Fraz]

Well that depends what happens to your old car, and where your new car comes from etc. A car changing hands isn't inherently bad for the environment

Granted I explained it badly, and will probably do so again... What I was trying to say is that the buying of genuinely brand-new cars is the main issue. Some people buy a new car every three years. If they could survive for six years, then you'd be halving the number of cars that needed producing (excepting new, first-time buyers, obviously).

This would probably result in the collapse of most of the world's automobile industries, but you've got to take the rough with the smooth...

[Moby-Dick]

Homeworking's another big soapbox issue of mine, I'm afraid - please hit me in the face with a wet kipper if I go off on one

I'm a homeworker when I'm not seeing clients - sadly I offset it all by flying quite regularly

[kalniel]

Granted I explained it badly, and will probably do so again... What I was trying to say is that the buying of genuinely brand-new cars is the main issue. Some people buy a new car every three years. If they could survive for six years, then you'd be halving the number of cars that needed producing (excepting new, first-time buyers, obviously).

But what will the people do who bought 3 year old cars? Start at 6 years instead? Now the people who bought *their* cars off them have to delay as well.. and eventually the car dies before it gets used by as many people. If there are less people per car, then the same number of people might have to buy more cars to meet their transport requirements.

I think new car ownership doesn't really matter. What matters is making sure that a car is serviceable for as many years as possible thus stays in the food chain.. as it were.. longer and less resources will be required for the whole eco-system. Things like the government scrappage scheme are a joke, but mandating regular checkups are likely to be more useful, along with standards of reliability etc.

If cars last longer, then there will be less need for new cars, but at the same time the cars value will remain higher, which means Mr New Car will be able to spend more on a new car, so manufacturers can offset the loss of volume with higher selling prices.

Of course, I might be biased - I've never bought a car newer than 5 years old...

[Fraz]

But what will the people do who bought 3 year old cars? Start at 6 years instead? Now the people who bought *their* cars off them have to delay as well.. and eventually the car dies before it gets used by as many people. If there are less people per car, then the same number of people might have to buy more cars to meet their transport requirements.

I think new car ownership doesn't really matter. What matters is making sure that a car is serviceable for as many years as possible thus stays in the food chain.. as it were.. longer and less resources will be required for the whole eco-system.

Good point - yes, a car's lifespan is the important point. Although people's obsession with new things is what I think of (perhaps incorrectly) as the fundamental issue here. A lot of a car's economic value is based around its age and desirability, and it's economic value determines whether it's worth keeping in repair, and hence how long it's going to be around for. If it were possible to manufacture a car that just lasted longer, that would be great too. Fashion comes into play also, which as far as I'm concerned is just an underhand way of encouraging people to buy new things when they don't really need to. Complex issue, I guess.

[Mblaster]

I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I really don't think car ownership is a sustainable model of transportation any more, and the quicker people realise that the better, IMNSHO...

That's fine in the city, but it becomes a significant pain in the ass in the countryside. I grew up in a small village in Somerset, and I could've got by just using the bus (and I did until aged 17), it was much slower than driving and they came infrequently and was generally rubbish.

Although a couple of years ago I moved to London and got rid of my car and for travel within London I don't miss it at all, even if I had the car I'd still get the tube/bus because the service is good, the come often, and it's priced reasonably. It becomes a bit of an annoyance where I want to leave London though, as trains are slow (to the South West), and expensive.

[scaryjim]

I used to live in rural south lincolnshire. I biked everywhere. I mean *everywhere*. My village had one bus a morning into town and two in the afternoon home again. So I never got the bus anywhere. If it was within 25 miles it was fair game on a bike.

To be fair, I was a little imprecise - I should have said "universal" car ownership is not sustainable. There are places where car ownership is ... perhaps not essential, but highly advantageous (I used to live in the Dales and would've felt *very* isolated without a car). But they tend to be places which, by their very nature, have a much lower population density, and are therefore less heavily impacted by high percentage car ownership.

[watercooled]

Maybe just individual car ownership? If, somehow, a street of people could be responsible enough they could manage with just a few cars between them. Or there could be just a pool of cars in the country, and people used them when needed, considering they spend the vast majority of time doing nothing...

[aidanjt]

Maybe just individual car ownership? If, somehow, a street of people could be responsible enough they could manage with just a few cars between them. Or there could be just a pool of cars in the country, and people used them when needed, considering they spend the vast majority of time doing nothing...

Yeah, it's going to end up where most car are just company owned/maintained automated vehicles and you hail for one on your smartphone, nearest unallocated one comes to you, jump in, and off you go.

Best job all round really.

[scaryjim]

I'm a big advocate of car pools, car hire and shared resources. Like I said earlier, when I need a car I hire one. The main problem is getting people out of their own cars, though - they won't do that until they perceive public transport to be a viable alternative, and we won't get investment in public transport until a government think people will get out of their cars and use it. Nasty little death spiral...