Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 16 of 49

Thread: should disabled students be means tested ?

  1. #1
    DILLIGAF GoNz0's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Derby
    Posts
    10,872
    Thanks
    632
    Thanked
    1,192 times in 945 posts
    • GoNz0's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus Rampage V Extreme
      • CPU:
      • i7 something X99 based
      • Memory:
      • 16gb GSkill
      • Storage:
      • 4 SSD's + WD Red
      • Graphics card(s):
      • GTX980 Strix WC
      • PSU:
      • Enermax Galaxy 1250 (9 years and counting)
      • Case:
      • Corsair 900D
      • Operating System:
      • win10 64bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell 24"
      • Internet:
      • 220mb Cable

    should disabled students be means tested ?

    my point in question is the house i went to today, as i pull up on the private end of a posh rural location and enter the driveway to be met by a house 5 times the size of mine, a boat sat out front and a Porsche on the drive to go inside and hand over a couple of grands worth of laptop and software for a dyslexic student who could quite easily have asked mummy and daddy to buy it.

    instead i work a low paid job to pay tax so this toss pot can have a government handout FFS!

    its damn obvious his parents are paying his way through uni anyway so why should i help pay for his laptop and dragon dictate ?

    snobby little pratt tells me he has a macbook and a smaller netbook as well GRRRRRRRRRR

    Capitalization is the difference between helping your Uncle Jack
    off a horse and helping your uncle jack off a horse.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    256
    Thanks
    41
    Thanked
    19 times in 19 posts

    Re: should disabled students be means tested ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disable...ents_allowance

    http://www.dyslexic.com/dsa

    on the one hand it appears you have a case in point as means testing would probably cut the ammount given out to people who can afford it and if everyone who applied, disabled or not was correctly means tested then it would appear to be more favourable and allow more funds to the people who truly do not have the funds spare.
    But one can also argue that his parents pay the higher tax bracket hence pay more tax and are justified in claiming free computer etc for that fact.
    Or his parents are on the dole and claiming for 15 kids
    6 dogs and 12 cats getting all the benefits going so a few grand for a free laptop is nothing really !!

    ps.
    hope you didn't "accidently" drop his laptop before handover as you may have to go back with a replacement !!!!!!!!!!!!

  3. #3
    jim
    jim is offline
    HEXUS.clueless jim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Location: Location:
    Posts
    11,457
    Thanks
    613
    Thanked
    1,645 times in 1,307 posts
    • jim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus Maximus IV Gene-Z
      • CPU:
      • i5 2500K @ 4.5GHz
      • Memory:
      • 8GB Corsair Vengeance LP
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Sandisk SSD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • ASUS GTX 970
      • PSU:
      • Corsair AX650
      • Case:
      • Silverstone Fortress FT03
      • Operating System:
      • 8.1 Pro
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell S2716DG
      • Internet:
      • 10 Mbps ADSL

    Re: should disabled students be means tested ?

    I guess the problem is how easy it is to means test people. The Student Loans Company pretty much has a disaster every single year, and even then, I personally feel I've been utterly cheated by means testing. I'll not go into detail, but just to say that it's not necessarily always the fairest approach.

    Back to the original point, I agree that ideally all of these things would be means tested. But, if it's going to cost so much to means test everyone that we might as well have just handed them out in the first place, then we haven't achieved a whole lot.

  4. #4
    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    17,168
    Thanks
    803
    Thanked
    2,152 times in 1,408 posts

    Re: should disabled students be means tested ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoNz0 View Post
    snobby little pratt tells me he has a macbook and a smaller netbook as well GRRRRRRRRRR
    Because we think the way to help dislexics is the one size fits all of a laptop.

    Hell people were been bought iPods (think pre-touch) here so they could record lectures, despite the complete lack of recording functionality.....

    I don't think it should be means tested, I think we see something here which is a throwback, anyone at uni who doesn't have a laptop is greatly disadvantaged....
    throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,130
    Thanks
    6
    Thanked
    98 times in 91 posts

    Re: should disabled students be means tested ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoNz0 View Post
    my point in question is the house i went to today, as i pull up on the private end of a posh rural location and enter the driveway to be met by a house 5 times the size of mine, a boat sat out front and a Porsche on the drive to go inside and hand over a couple of grands worth of laptop and software for a dyslexic student who could quite easily have asked mummy and daddy to buy it.

    instead i work a low paid job to pay tax so this toss pot can have a government handout FFS!

    its damn obvious his parents are paying his way through uni anyway so why should i help pay for his laptop and dragon dictate ?

    snobby little pratt tells me he has a macbook and a smaller netbook as well GRRRRRRRRRR
    after paying for a boat and porsche and the upkeep of them, it's no wonder they can't afford to buy a laptop

    from what i understand, you get a voucher for up to £500 to use at pc world. you can add more money to it if you want, but if you don't spend the full amount you don't get to carry it to another date. you can add printers etc on, just like using any other gift voucher, just you get no change

    i thought it was means tested. or at least you fill in a form that asks what you can afford to spend

  6. #6
    HEXUS.social member Agent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Internet
    Posts
    19,185
    Thanks
    739
    Thanked
    1,614 times in 1,050 posts

    Re: should disabled students be means tested ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoNz0 View Post
    ...go inside and hand over a couple of grands worth of laptop and software for a dyslexic student who could quite easily have asked mummy and daddy to buy it.

    instead i work a low paid job to pay tax so this toss pot can have a government handout FFS!
    You're calling someone a 'toss pot' purely because they have a disability and their parents are rich?

    What has this person done wrong exactly?
    I don't particularly think the one size fits all approach with a laptop works either (personal support is much more effective), but it's hardly grounds to start personally insulting someone for using a system that's not put in place by them.

    Blame the system, not the person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And by trying to force me to like small pants, they've alienated me.

  7. Received thanks from:

    g8ina (23-03-2012)

  8. #7
    LUSE Galant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gibraltar
    Posts
    3,252
    Thanks
    502
    Thanked
    555 times in 339 posts

    Re: should disabled students be means tested ?

    Detroit lottery winner continues to receive $200 a month in benefits

    It's people who make up the system so blame both.

    I think it's common sense that benefits should be means tested. Help, by definition, goes to those who need it. That requires testing. They system needs to be improved, but removing testing all together invites even further abuse.

    The idea of taking money from others to pay for things when you can and should pay for it yourself is wrong. People need to realise that 'government funds' are just your neighbours' funds given to pay for what is needed in society. There is no magic money tree in the PM's backyard.

    Of course, the pragmatic side of the cost of testing is a factor - but in my mind the system should lean towards encouraging individual responsibility, and as part of that defending people's rights to keep their own money as earned, whilst also encouraging and ensuring compassion. Responsibility, gratitude and compassion go together. Stealing money from people is in direct opposition to all three and there should be something in place to fight that.
    No trees were harmed in the creation of this message. However, many electrons were displaced and terribly inconvenienced.

  9. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    925
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked
    161 times in 148 posts
    • smargh's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3P
      • CPU:
      • Xeon E5450 with 775-to-771 Mod
      • Memory:
      • 16GB Crucial
      • Storage:
      • Intel X25-M G2 80GB/Adaptec 3405 4x 2TB Ultrastar RAID1 / 1x 6TB Hitachi He6 / Dying 2TB Samsung
      • Graphics card(s):
      • GTX 750 Ti
      • PSU:
      • Seasonic X-560
      • Case:
      • Lian-Li PC-A71
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • BenQ G2400WD
      • Internet:
      • Really Crap ADSL2 <3Mbit

    Re: should disabled students be means tested ?

    Simples. Might require a bit of legislation though.

    Means testing everyone repeatedly for many things is probably fairly expensive.

    If a .gov employee suspects that a person may be accepting state assistance without actually needing it, then require bank statements of them & their partner & parents/guardians, together with a signed form to confirm that they have no significant available cash & do require state assistance to ensure that this need is met. I'm sure there's a standard set of stuff that a .gov could do to check on the financial status of someone, even if it's a credit & bank account history check.

  10. #9
    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Gateshead
    Posts
    15,196
    Thanks
    1,231
    Thanked
    2,291 times in 1,874 posts
    • scaryjim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Dell Inspiron
      • CPU:
      • Core i5 8250U
      • Memory:
      • 2x 4GB DDR4 2666
      • Storage:
      • 128GB M.2 SSD + 1TB HDD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Radeon R5 230
      • PSU:
      • Battery/Dell brick
      • Case:
      • Dell Inspiron 5570
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • 15" 1080p laptop panel

    Re: should disabled students be means tested ?

    Frankly, a centralised single-sourced needs testing for anyone applying for any kind of assistance. That way everyone, and everything, gets judged on the same basis, with the same evidence standards etc.

    If a .gov employee suspects that a person may be accepting state assistance without actually needing it...
    This already happens. Every HB assessor is trained to keep an eye out for likely fraud. And for an HB claim you *already* need to provide bank statements (3 months), and those are scrutinised for unusual transfers in or out. People still get round it (before we required original documents, one old chap had repeatedly scalpeled out the lines of his bank statement that showed his undeclared private pension going in!) but it's not a bad system. Centralise it, so there's a single standard assessment, then just use that for *every* government-provided incentive/benefit.

    At the minute, if claim disability benefits, houseing/ / council tax benefit and tax credit there's three different needs assessments. There's no wonder it goes so badly wrong sometimes...

  11. #10
    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    17,168
    Thanks
    803
    Thanked
    2,152 times in 1,408 posts

    Re: should disabled students be means tested ?

    Yes but the issue is that by their nature benefits are going to be unfair.

    Say you don't get the Laptop, how many other things will you miss out on?

    What happens if you earn £38k say, and get everything, then get to £40k and get nothing, you might well find that your much worse off!

    As such I'm normally against means testing these things. I'm not sure why OP felt they were ******s, but there is a good possability that they pay a lot of tax. As such they are hardly gaming the system.
    throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)

  12. #11
    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Gateshead
    Posts
    15,196
    Thanks
    1,231
    Thanked
    2,291 times in 1,874 posts
    • scaryjim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Dell Inspiron
      • CPU:
      • Core i5 8250U
      • Memory:
      • 2x 4GB DDR4 2666
      • Storage:
      • 128GB M.2 SSD + 1TB HDD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Radeon R5 230
      • PSU:
      • Battery/Dell brick
      • Case:
      • Dell Inspiron 5570
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • 15" 1080p laptop panel

    Re: should disabled students be means tested ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    What happens if you earn £38k say, and get everything, then get to £40k and get nothing, you might well find that your much worse off!
    *MOST* means tested benefits don't work like that. Your benefits reduce by a taper once your income reaches a certain level. So if you earn £2k more a year, then your benefits reduce by a percentage of that £2k.

    One of the real issues with the current system is that the means tested benefits aren't all mutually exclusive: for instance, Tax Credits affect HB entitlement, but both are means tested. Also, the different benefits are assessed and awarded by different bodies, some of whom (I'm looking at YOU, HMRC) are really not competent to adminster a benefits service. The whole system's a shoddy mess, frankly, for a variety of reasons which have lead to some incredibly poor policy and process decisions. it needs ripping up and rebuilding from scratch...

  13. #12
    ɯʎɔɐɹsɐʌʍ mycarsavw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    4,945
    Thanks
    1,097
    Thanked
    653 times in 482 posts
    • mycarsavw's system
      • Motherboard:
      • P8H77-M Pro
      • CPU:
      • i5 3350P
      • Memory:
      • 16Gb
      • Storage:
      • Lots
      • Graphics card(s):
      • R9 285
      • PSU:
      • HX 620w
      • Case:
      • FD Define Mini
      • Operating System:
      • W10
      • Monitor(s):
      • BenQ G2420HDBL + GL2450HT
      • Internet:
      • Sky

    Re: should disabled students be means tested ?

    Were all the 'luxury' items you spied owned outright or did they all have outstanding finance?

    Facade is a lovely figurative noun.
    |Kata: "Read title as 'fisting'. Not sure why I clicked. Relieved, really."|
    |TAKTAK: "It was so small that mine wouldn't fit into it"|

  14. #13
    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    17,168
    Thanks
    803
    Thanked
    2,152 times in 1,408 posts

    Re: should disabled students be means tested ?

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    *MOST* means tested benefits don't work like that. Your benefits reduce by a taper once your income reaches a certain level. So if you earn £2k more a year, then your benefits reduce by a percentage of that £2k.
    But I'm talking about a 'what if', wherein everything like this was means tested. There are probably a fair few thousand available at certain points in peoples lives... How would those taper out, it would be really confusing and hard. Would you get teh chose in loosing the winter fuel or the laptop?
    throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)

  15. #14
    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Gateshead
    Posts
    15,196
    Thanks
    1,231
    Thanked
    2,291 times in 1,874 posts
    • scaryjim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Dell Inspiron
      • CPU:
      • Core i5 8250U
      • Memory:
      • 2x 4GB DDR4 2666
      • Storage:
      • 128GB M.2 SSD + 1TB HDD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Radeon R5 230
      • PSU:
      • Battery/Dell brick
      • Case:
      • Dell Inspiron 5570
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • 15" 1080p laptop panel

    Re: should disabled students be means tested ?

    I'd probably protect certain payments, so they wouldn't be means tested at all - support for disabled students being one that would probably stay (sorry Gonz ). You also make sure that none of the additional payments rely on each other (which is a different situation to the current one), so you don't have to take into account the level of award from each other benefit when working out entitlements.

    For the remaining means tested benefits, there are two options: either everything tapers off when you hit a particular income, and the tapers are set to ensure that they never add up to 100% or more (so you're never worse off getting the benefits), or each benefit has a different income baseline and the tapers are tweaked to minimise overlapping.

    It might be a little complex for joe public to understand, but how many people understand the existing HB calculation? Not many, I'm willing to bet. And it's not really much more complicated than that. Plus the actual calculations would all be computerised so assessment staff only need to know the principles behind the calculation, not actually be able to do it themselves in their heads!

    But I'm talking rather pie in the sky here, because that would require a government brave enough to actually radically change something that isn't working and make it better, and whilst most governments can manage the first part of that, they tend to fall down at the second...

  16. #15
    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    17,168
    Thanks
    803
    Thanked
    2,152 times in 1,408 posts

    Re: should disabled students be means tested ?

    I guess it depends on your perspective. Myself I don't have private health cover, despite been easily able to afford it. My logic is simple, I pay a lot of tax, too much I think, and I'll be damned if I don't get a top notch health service as part of that bill.

    I have the same view with policing, and other services.

    I also think that if something isn't so key that it is afforded to everyone, then its quite possibly not a good idea. For instance, I can't describe how little I like the notion of "Child Benefits" when I have humanist views.
    throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)

  17. #16
    Registered+
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    71
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    12 times in 9 posts

    Re: should disabled students be means tested ?

    A persons right to go to university or college should not be based on whether they are disabled but on whether they have the potential to succeed in any given area. just like in a place of employment people should have the right to access all they need to be able to have a chance to do so.

    Just because a person happens to live in a household where the parents may or may not be wealthy it is the individual that has the right not the parent.

    Disability is not a means tested thing you are either disabled or not why should a young person who happens to have a disability be means tested to see if they are entitled, like any other young person they will be entitled to their further education based on grants if they qualify or student loans.

    I am proud to live in a country where the young people get a chance to further themselves.

    Frequently people with disabilities find things more expensive just because it has a disabled friendly label something that often goes unnoticed by the able bodied members of society, should they have further expense to get a good education or the chance to go into the work place I think not.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •