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Thread: Its a funny old world...

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    The late but legendary peterb - Onward and Upward peterb's Avatar
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    Its a funny old world...

    I see that Jeremy Forest and Megan Stammers have been found in France.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19756698

    She has (it is reported) been taken into protective custody (although she apparently went with him of her own volition)

    Now while I certainly don't condone Jremy Forest (a married man) abusing his position of trust as a teacher with an under age girl - however consenting she may be), I can't help contrasting the reaction to that of a similarly aged girl in Rochdale, who after being physically and sexually abused, and raped multiple times, was told that this was a lifestyle choice she had made, and her parents told that she was a prostitute.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ester-19741302

    We don't know all the deatails (especially the Stammers/Fores case, but is this double standards, or the same standard applied unequally?
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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Its a funny old world...

    I don't think they bear much comparison to be honest.

    Both are horrendous in their own ways. And in both cases authorities were too slow to act.

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    Senior Member kopite's Avatar
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    Re: Its a funny old world...

    A lot of the girls in rochdale where also in care so seem to get treated like lesser citizens anyway.

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    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Re: Its a funny old world...

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    I don't think they bear much comparison to be honest.

    Both are horrendous in their own ways. And in both cases authorities were too slow to act.
    Absolutely.

    They are both cases of abuse, whilst I think the age of consent should be changed a bit, probably to something like:
    13yo with anyone under 16y
    16yo with anyone under 20yo
    18y doesn't matter.
    But that would be mostly to try and get a dutch style of attitude towards sex, ie its awesome, but there really is no need for you to have it.

    Anyway, whilst I think people have this insane attitude of all 15.5 year olds are unable to make a choice, and a 16yo is just fine, the point is in this case the man was a teacher in a position of trust. If you don't think of that as important, think of the difference going out with a good wingman makes, when your introduced as a person who is to be liked/respected.

    Children are told to do what teachers tell them, even if they don't, they do know they are in a position of authority over them. That is what makes abuse like this so wrong. Also the fact the abuser knew he would get off much more leniently if he simply waited a few months gives you some worrying insight into his mind.
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    HEXUS.social member Agent's Avatar
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    Re: Its a funny old world...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    Anyway, whilst I think people have this insane attitude of all 15.5 year olds are unable to make a choice, and a 16yo is just fine, the point is in this case the man was a teacher in a position of trust.
    Spot on.

    <edited due to him teaching at the school - what I said doesn't apply>
    Last edited by Agent; 28-09-2012 at 04:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And by trying to force me to like small pants, they've alienated me.

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    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Re: Its a funny old world...

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent View Post
    Spot on.

    If the guy had waited a few months and she'd left school, there is very little, if anything they could have done about it.
    Actually he would have probably lost his job.

    Most schools, hell even universities have a rule about sexual relationships with students, and the just graduated.
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    HEXUS.social member Agent's Avatar
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    Re: Its a funny old world...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    Actually he would have probably lost his job.

    Most schools, hell even universities have a rule about sexual relationships with students, and the just graduated.
    I honesty think you'd be very surprised these days. As long as it's all legal, there is very little an institution can do about it - they have no 'power' over you in this regard. Sure, a teacher has to let them know due to marking and supervision, but an academic institute (edit - as above, as long as it's legal) can't really do much. The standard article 8 stuff applies - family and private life.

    As for Universities - honestly mate, as someone who works in one, it is not an issue as long as you tell your supervisor. You can't teach a student or mark their work, but that's it. You're two adults at the end of the day, who's a University to tell you what you can and can't do in your private life?
    Last edited by Agent; 28-09-2012 at 05:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And by trying to force me to like small pants, they've alienated me.

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    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
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    Re: Its a funny old world...

    I think referring to him as an abuser might be a little harsh - whilst he's definitely taken advantage of his position of trust & power, that doesn't mean he's abused the girl - or at least, not with the full connotations of that word when used in these circumstances.

    The fact that he was willing to walk away from a marriage and a job (both of which he was pretty much guaranteed to lose however this turned out) suggests that while he's obviously made a really bad judgement call here, he was probably also serious about the relationship. There's no indication that he forced or coerced her to go with him (although given his position of authority that's a pretty murky area), he seems to get a pretty good character witness from former pupils, and AFAIK she's said she went willingly. And they must have realised once they decided to have their little trip to France that everyone would know - there wasn't any real attempt to hide what was happening.

    Note, I'm not condoning what's happened: he was an idiot for putting himself in this position. But I don't think there was any malicious intent behind it, and comparing this case to the systematic grooming of numerous young girls is pretty ridiculous. I'm not entirely sure what comparison we're meant to be drawing, tbh...

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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Its a funny old world...

    The position of authority thing is precisely why it's illegal for teachers to be in relationships with under 18s - note this is higher than the legal limit of 16 for non-teachers or people not in positions of authority.

    If he was that serious about the relationship then why didn't he simply resign and wait a few months?

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    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
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    Re: Its a funny old world...

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    If he was that serious about the relationship then why didn't he simply resign and wait a few months?
    'Cause people are idiots, especially if they think they're "in love"? *shrug* Perhaps he - or even they - realised it was heading towards a train wreck and decided to have fun while it lasted? We'll probably never know. The decision to skip the country on a lover's fling on a school night suggests that neither of them was thinking particularly rationally - they could've just kept the whole thing under wraps for another six months, then he could've quit his job after she'd left school and there wouldn't be a lot anyone could do (he'd probably never be able to teach again, but...). I'd love to know their reasoning - it's a fascinating study of human behaviour.

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    HEXUS.social member Agent's Avatar
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    Re: Its a funny old world...

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    The position of authority thing is precisely why it's illegal for teachers to be in relationships with under 18s - note this is higher than the legal limit of 16 for non-teachers or people not in positions of authority.
    To extend on this - I believe this is only true where the teacher is in a position of trust directly over the pupil. If a teacher from a school has sex with a 17 year old who has never attended that school, I don't think this is an issue?

    The act’s provisions mean that, subject to a number of limited definitions, it is a criminal offence for a person in a position of trust to engage in any sexual activity with a person aged under 18 with whom they have a relationship of trust, irrespective of the age of consent, even if the basis for their relationship is consensual. A relationship of trust exists where a member of staff or volunteer is in a position of power or influence over a pupil or student by virtue of the work or nature of the activity being undertaken.

    http://www.teachingexpertise.com/art...s-over-16-5634
    I don't teach under 18s though - so I'm open to correction here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And by trying to force me to like small pants, they've alienated me.

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    Senior Member Smudger's Avatar
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    Re: Its a funny old world...

    I think they take it they were at the same school, therefore he had a position of trust, whether he taught her or not is irrelevant...

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    The late but legendary peterb - Onward and Upward peterb's Avatar
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    Re: Its a funny old world...

    While I don't disagree with any of the points made, the point of my original post was the contrast with the girl in Rochdale, of a similar age, who was deemed to have made a 'lifestyle choice' to be physically and sexually abused by a gang of older men, and was described as a prostitute when her parents brought it to the attention of those who could have done something about it.
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    Senior Member mcmiller's Avatar
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    Re: Its a funny old world...

    I know what you mean I can think of two examples where i have thought something isnt right

    Pussy riot versus the boy how climbed up the centaur (not sure if that is spelt correctly) bother were making a political point and both were sentenced to jail for 2 years but people seem more outraged by the pussy riot incident even though according to 1 poll i saw 70% of people wanted them jailed (not sure how correct the poll is).

    And the off duty police officer who was knocked off his bike and offender was given 15 months versus the guy who killed 3 generations of the same family (car accident again) and was only given 4 years in prison. That doesnt seem right to me.

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    Senior Member mcmiller's Avatar
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    Re: Its a funny old world...

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    While I don't disagree with any of the points made, the point of my original post was the contrast with the girl in Rochdale, of a similar age, who was deemed to have made a 'lifestyle choice' to be physically and sexually abused by a gang of older men, and was described as a prostitute when her parents brought it to the attention of those who could have done something about it.
    I guess that is because the girls in Rochdale were troubled and so people tend to think the worst of them.

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