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Thread: Government Benefits, what do you think of them?

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    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Government Benefits, what do you think of them?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20431729

    There is a somewhat meandering article in the beeb magazine today, about how people percieve the benefits system of the country, how some feel its over generous.

    Myself I find it frustraiting, because I know it will never benefit me or anyone in my situation if I need it. That means when I hear tales from a friend at un-named television service peddler of how they know quite how quickly someone on the dole pays them after they flick off the premium channels, I do shape my interpretation a lot.

    I also see endless amounts of 'incapacity', espesually in a rural place such as Cornwall or Wales, yet many of these people are clearly capable of being some productive use to society. I find it odd that certain kinds of mobility allowances are only paid if the person is unable to work, yet conversly the person is quite able to work when they are provided.

    So this then leads me to the view quite quickly that a vast majority are scroungers, by that I mean not productive for society.

    What about you lot?
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    Re: Government Benefits, what do you think of them?

    As someone on disability benefits I feel the need to point out these programs have some of the lowest fraud rates of any government program also, far lower than private sector tax fraud/avoidance and other malfeasance.

    Incapacity Benefit 0.3%
    Disability Living Allowance 0.5%

    http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd2/...pr10_mar11.pdf

    But we're easy to stigmatise, can't spend millions on lobbyists, and due to being disabled it's pretty hard for us to protest, fight protracted court cases and alike.

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    Re: Government Benefits, what do you think of them?

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckskull View Post
    But we're easy to stigmatise, can't spend millions on lobbyists, and due to being disabled it's pretty hard for us to protest, fight protracted court cases and alike.
    If you see my point I'm not saying that people who are disabled shouldn't get help.

    Just that there is no point keeping them economically in-active, which is what tends to happen a lot.

    A firm I did some consultancy actually has a very high proportion of disabled tele-support people, but not in the UK. They would loose their benefits.

    So what I'm saying is people are claiming these benefits completely within the rules. But I still don't like it.

    However that is also from a political point of view that I think everyone should be somehow economically active.
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    Re: Government Benefits, what do you think of them?

    I think the risk of keeping someone economically in-active is probably worth it for the gain of genuinely helping those that need it maintain a certain standard of living. Ideally, I'd like to be able to help them while ensuring they are also economically active, but if the measures to ensure that meant that more people would fall below a standard of living we consider acceptable in a civilised society then it is a price not worth paying.

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    Re: Government Benefits, what do you think of them?

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckskull View Post
    As someone on disability benefits I feel the need to point out these programs have some of the lowest fraud rates of any government program also, far lower than private sector tax fraud/avoidance and other malfeasance.

    Incapacity Benefit 0.3%
    Disability Living Allowance 0.5%

    http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd2/...pr10_mar11.pdf

    But we're easy to stigmatise, can't spend millions on lobbyists, and due to being disabled it's pretty hard for us to protest, fight protracted court cases and alike.
    but how do they get the fraud figures? surely if someone was successful at it then they wouldn't know about it? surely those figures are all they know about, so not necesarily accurate. they are just estimates

    but then look at how much actual money those "small" percentages add up to, it's literally billions of pounds

    i don't think many people are concerned about benefits to people who are disabled, rather those who are perfectly capable but don't do enough to get work, and those who abuse the system, which isn't necesarily fraud

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    Re: Government Benefits, what do you think of them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unique View Post
    and those who abuse the system, which isn't necesarily fraud
    But what about those mentally ill people?

    There are quite a few people who are unable to work, then put in to a system which will never help them get better, or get back to work.

    In large companies its common to get "balance sheet column syndrome" as I call it, its when the cost for something doesn't show up under your column, so brilliant, do it. With the NHS for instance not providing support saves them money, however it costs the DWP money, sometimes more than if the NHS provided that support.

    I think the issue is if you say that we spend too much money on benefits, you apparently are labeling everyone scroungers. Which is a problem.

    I also dislike the idea that we don't get the people who are on benefits to do anything. Granted we shouldn't have slave labour, or anything which distorts the free market, but hell just something to give back.
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    Re: Government Benefits, what do you think of them?

    Having worked in benefits, I have to say the amount of fraud across most benefits is a lot lower than people like to make out. When a large fraud case is discovered it tends to make big news, but the problem is hugely overstated.

    Essentially, if you cut off benefits from people you would reduce their economic activity (as they wouldn't have money to spend) and increase their burden on society (due to increased health problems and social problems of having millions of people homeless/foodless etc.). So giving them enough money to house, feed and entertain themselves is probably a lot cheaper - in the long run - than allowing thousands or millions of people to descend into an under-class existence. I'm sure there are plenty of people on benefits who could work, but that doesn't mean they will, even if you remove their access to public funds.

    Those people who choose to slob on benefits when they are perfectly fit and capable of work would almost certainly choose to slob and not work regardless: you won't turn them into hard-working career people just by taking their benefits away. Those people who can work with the correct support can claim additional tax credit payments, and not all disability benefits are removed if you do paid work - I believe the mobility component of DLA can be paid regardless (although it has been a fair few years since I worked in benefits, so I could be wrong there). And if you genuinely can't work, then at least a benefit income allows you to contribute by consuming and providing employment in the locality, and potentially frees up other people - i.e. your friends and relatives - to make an economic contribution as they don't have to work as full time unpaid support staff.

    While it's easy to write off people who are reliant on benefit as unproductive and non-contributing, there's actually a lot of indirect economic benefit from keeping those people functioning in society. They may not be net producers of wealth, but I suspect our economy - and our society - would be a worse place under any other system...

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    Re: Government Benefits, what do you think of them?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    If you see my point I'm not saying that people who are disabled shouldn't get help.
    No you were saying the vast majority of disabled people were scroungers.

    Firstly; 2.5 million perfectly healthy people can't find work. Secondly; you can work on disability benefits and many do, it's one of the programs stated goals, however kludged it's implementation is. Thirdly; nobody is being 'kept' inactive; see points one and two.

    You have no understanding of the medical problems faced by these people and how that affects their ability to work which is why we have doctors make those decisions. Being capable of 'some kind of economic output' or putting it another way occasionally being well enough to move around and go outside so you can look down your nose and snort "why aren't they working?" them is not the same as being able to work.
    Last edited by chuckskull; 26-11-2012 at 04:47 PM.

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    Re: Government Benefits, what do you think of them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unique View Post
    but how do they get the fraud figures? surely if someone was successful at it then they wouldn't know about it? surely those figures are all they know about, so not necesarily accurate. they are just estimates

    but then look at how much actual money those "small" percentages add up to, it's literally billions of pounds
    Methodology is described on Page 5.

    Those small percentages don't add up to billions they add up to 1.2billion. Or about a quarter of what tax evasion costs us.

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    Re: Government Benefits, what do you think of them?

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckskull View Post
    No you were saying the vast majority of disabled people were scroungers.
    Vast majority of benefit recipients. Not the same thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckskull View Post
    Firstly; 2.5 million perfectly healthy people can't find work. Secondly; you can work on disability benefits and many do, it's one of the programs stated goals, however kludged it's implementation is. Thirdly; nobody is being 'kept' inactive; see points one and two.
    1) so what, the same reason the other tens of million found work isn't applicable? 2) Many do not, I know personally two households in that situation. One of whom gets about £30k a year for mental illness issues, but no therapy. 3) Ah huh, see person I mentioned in example two. It is happening. The only part you can discuss is the ratio, now as I explained in the first post, its normal for people to have a blinkered subjective sampling on this.

    What I have seen disghusts me quite frankly.
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckskull View Post
    You have no understanding of the medical problems faced by these people and how that affects their ability to work which is why we have doctors make those decisions. Being capable of 'some kind of economic output' or putting it another way occasionally being well enough to move around and go outside so you can look down your nose at snort "why aren't they working?" them is not the same as being able to work.
    Well actually each one is differen't. This is the main problem, you can't simply say "ah well they're a cat D cripple".

    My point is the system should be re-jigged. There effectively needs to be one agency responsible for "wellness" to prevent give and take from say NHS and DWP or Local Government.

    It also really should be doing its level best to encourage people who are able to say do 5 hours a week, to actually do them.
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    Re: Government Benefits, what do you think of them?

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckskull View Post
    Methodology is described on Page 5.

    Those small percentages don't add up to billions they add up to 1.2billion. Or about a quarter of what tax evasion costs us.
    Actually you miss-understand the defintion. Or at least the summary 1.15.

    For those numbers are the ones which the DWP is aware of.

    That for instance doesn't include someone claiming their back hurts, when it doesn't. This is the tricky thing about a lot of illness, I've heard of Dr's not consider polymilagre to be a "real illness" (their words, they considered it a mental issue, guys a good surgen by all accounts).

    The problem is there are a lot of people who see this and are upset because on the outside their lifes appear better. When running a firm when its small enough I always try to take time to know everyone and share a good rant over coffee. My office use a cleaning contractor (they are a ST) who is paid about £4 above the london living wage. This is considered high (bean counters have been telling me off, not a good year to waste money), but my rational is I have complete trust in them, and I can justify to the accountant because she does have access to everything..... anyway I digress, my point is someone who is working really rather hard in a low-end profession, who has no hope of getting more money. She is taking her first holiday in 4 years. Meanwhile her neighbours who by her interpretation are drunks have taken two so far. Both of them are on incapacity benefit, and I'm fairly sure her landlord is claiming housing benefit whilst renting the room on the sly.

    You can see how the difference in life style might generate animosity?
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    Re: Government Benefits, what do you think of them?

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckskull View Post
    Methodology is described on Page 5.

    Those small percentages don't add up to billions they add up to 1.2billion. Or about a quarter of what tax evasion costs us.
    Category of error
     0.8%, or £1.2bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to fraud;
     0.8%, or £1.3bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to customer error;
     0.5%, or £0.8bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to official error.
     0.5%, or £0.8bn, of total benefit expenditure is underpaid due to customer error;
     0.3%, or £0.4bn, of total benefit expenditure is underpaid due to official error.

    it's still an edstimate. the bottom line is they have no idea how much it really costs.

    just because it's lower or bigger than something else doesn't mean it's not a problem though. tax evasion is legal and costs a lot, defense budget is legal and also costs a lot. 2.5 billion due to fraud and customer error is a lot of money. when you look at it in percentage terms it looks lower as 0.5% doesn't seem much. but when you see it in millions it makes more sense. and that's still not even the real figure

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    Re: Government Benefits, what do you think of them?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    But what about those mentally ill people?

    There are quite a few people who are unable to work, then put in to a system which will never help them get better, or get back to work.

    In large companies its common to get "balance sheet column syndrome" as I call it, its when the cost for something doesn't show up under your column, so brilliant, do it. With the NHS for instance not providing support saves them money, however it costs the DWP money, sometimes more than if the NHS provided that support.

    I think the issue is if you say that we spend too much money on benefits, you apparently are labeling everyone scroungers. Which is a problem.

    I also dislike the idea that we don't get the people who are on benefits to do anything. Granted we shouldn't have slave labour, or anything which distorts the free market, but hell just something to give back.
    i wasn't referring to mentally ill people at all. i was just meaning people who can work but can't be bothered and just claim benefits as a way of life. i do agree that to combat that, people should have to contribute for benefits where possible, at least starting with job seekers who are claiming as they are fit for work but can't find work. divide the amount of benefits received by the NMW and let them make up work to the level of those hours. that would certainly make a change to the professional benefit claimants who do so to avoid working

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    Re: Government Benefits, what do you think of them?

    Vast majority of benefit recipients. Not the same thing.
    What you actually said;

    I also see endless amounts of 'incapacity', espesually in a rural place such as Cornwall or Wales, yet many of these people are clearly capable of being some productive use to society. I find it odd that certain kinds of mobility allowances are only paid if the person is unable to work, yet conversly the person is quite able to work when they are provided.

    So this then leads me to the view quite quickly that a vast majority are scroungers, by that I mean not productive for society.
    You singled out the disabled. You should aim your insults better. But okay I'll rephrase; "No you were saying the vast majority of disabled and impoverished people are scroungers".

    1) so what, the same reason the other tens of million found work isn't applicable?
    Millions of people have jobs, so there must be enough jobs for everyone of all needs and abilities. Is that seriously your argument?

    2) Many do not, I know personally two households in that situation. One of whom gets about £30k a year for mental illness issues, but no therapy.
    I don't really see how this proves your point that people are being kept unemployed, nor how you can claim any ability to judge their ability to work, not to mention that 2 is a pathetically small sample size. On your other point, mental health treatment has been quietly and severely cut over the last few decades, inpatient care for example by 80% despite increasing demand.

    My point is the system should be re-jigged. There effectively needs to be one agency responsible for "wellness" to prevent give and take from say NHS and DWP or Local Government.

    It also really should be doing its level best to encourage people who are able to say do 5 hours a week, to actually do them.
    I agree, but that wasn't your original point was it? No that was that doleys are scroungers living off your back. The system does need reforming, massively. Yet you lay the derision at the feet of those least able to change it and most trapped by it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    Actually you miss-understand the defintion. Or at least the summary 1.15.

    For those numbers are the ones which the DWP is aware of.

    <snip>

    You can see how the difference in life style might generate animosity?
    Last time I checked you were innocent until proven guilty, that is the fraud rate until proven otherwise. If you think someone is committing fraud report them.

    I can see how the constant trotting out of extreme, incredibly rare and often criminal examples might cause animosity. For most of us, well at least for the couple of hundred I've met, it's not like that at all. We struggle to make ends meet. If we're very lucky we can have a couple of luxuries, usually thanks to our families. I know plenty who don't even have that.

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    Re: Government Benefits, what do you think of them?

    The benefits system isn't flawed because of the potential for abuse, it's flawed because it's created situations whereby it's better for people to remain out of work, than to find employement. It's not the initial payments alone that form the problem, it's the associated costs with working that often make people worse off. For example, childcare and transport costs, and the loss of housing benefit can take a single parent from being able to provide for their child on benefits, to being out of home if they are able to find suitable work.

    As for people on disability / incapacity benefits, yes many are able to do some kind of work, on good days, but on bad days they're often non-functional, and it's often difficult to tell which days will be good and which will be bad. If you were an employer, would you want to pay for someone who may or may not show up for work on any given day? If you go down the route that you only pay them for the work that they do, the person loses out because there's no measures in place to make up the shortfall in income, and hence we're back to a position whereby it's better to be on benefits.


    Ultimately, I believe that the benefits system should be based around setting a minimum income, based on a person's circumstances, that's deemed sufficiant to cover the very basics, such as shelter and food. We are already seeing part of that, with the changes to the tax code.

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    Re: Government Benefits, what do you think of them?

    Having lived on both sides of the benefit coin I can honestly say that one of the major flaws in the benefit system is that they are not willing enough to assist people who want to work with the associated costs involved in taking that work.

    I will use myself as an example.

    I was offered a job with a taxi company just outside Hull.

    I was able to start immediately as the owner already had a car ready to go that I could lease.

    He made me the offer because one of my friends was a driver there and when he found out the boss had a spare car he mentioned me.

    All I needed to do was to get my Taxi Licence which in the East Riding at that point was a fairly simple process that would have taken me no more than 2 days to complete.

    I was on benefit at the time and could not afford the associated costs of getting the licence. (about 400 pounds)

    I took the job offer in writing to my benefits worker to get assistance with it.

    They refused stating that that type of thing was not in the budget

    I was dumbfounded, I would have been off benefit and in full time work within a week of getting the help.

    Surely that's exactly what their budget is for, as it was I ended up claiming benefit for a further 2 years before leaving the country.

    Now you tell me from a tax payers perspective where is the financial sense in that decision.

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