View Poll Results: We should have a referendum to settle the issue ....

Voters
29. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    20 68.97%
  • No

    8 27.59%
  • I don't know

    1 3.45%
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 16 of 48

Thread: Should there be an EU referendum?

  1. #1
    Admin (Ret'd)
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    18,481
    Thanks
    1,016
    Thanked
    3,208 times in 2,281 posts

    Should there be an EU referendum?

    Please note - this is NOT a thread about whether we should leave the EU. That's a completely different question. This is about whether there should be a referendum.

    Cameron is due, shortly, to make a speech about his position on the EU question, and whether or not we get a vote is part of that.

    Personally, my view is that yes, we should get a referendum, and for several reasons.

    First, there's the utterly pragmatic. Other EU countries, like Germany, aren't happy with the UK sitting on the egdes and moaning. Well, until we, the people, get a say in it, that is not going to change. The ONLY way the UK is EVER going to be a full, willing, participant, is if government have a clear mandate from the people. Otherwise, the issue will remain devisive. If other EU states want a change in the UK stance, we either need to be fully in, or fully out, or at the least, have a negotiated position, then they ought to be backing a UK referendum.

    Part of the reason for that is that we, the people, have NEVER been given a say on membership of the EU. The only say we got, 40-odd years ago, was about the Common Market, and the EU is a very different beast. Nor do subsequent general elections count, as they are abour far, FAR more than the EU, like taxation, welfare, education, police and crime and, dare I say it, yes, the economy.

    If we have a proper, genuine vote, not the deceitful conjuring trick that Ted Heath and Harold Wilson lied to us about last time, then either we vote yes and those opposed will have to accept that it's thewill of tbe people, or we vote no and those in favour will have to accept that that is the will of the people.

    Either way, we will have a far more settled position though, no doubt, some on both sides will never accept not getting their way, whatever the result. But government can then point to that democratic mandate and ignore whichever group end up moaning.

    The only argument I can see for not holding a referendum and finally settling this question is that government don't trust us to give the answer they want. Aren't we lucky to have such a democracy.

    So come on, Cameron, get off your butt and give the people a voice. Or put up with this issue carrying on being hugely devisive. There is NO other way to resolve it.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Smudger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    St Albans
    Posts
    3,834
    Thanks
    643
    Thanked
    608 times in 444 posts
    • Smudger's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Gbyte GA-970A-UD3P
      • CPU:
      • AMD FX8320 Black Edition
      • Memory:
      • 16GB 2x8G CML16GX3M2A1600C10
      • Storage:
      • 1x240Gb Corsair M500, 2TB TOSHIBA DT01ACA200
      • Graphics card(s):
      • XFX Radeon HD4890 1GB
      • PSU:
      • Corsair HX520
      • Case:
      • Akasa Zen
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10 Home
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell 24"
      • Internet:
      • Virgin 200Mbit

    Re: Should there be an EU referendum?

    I've voted yes, but I guess my fear is that The Mail etc will go into overdrive to try to tell people how to vote...

  3. #3
    Herr Doktor Oetker, ja!!! pollaxe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    West of England
    Posts
    2,969
    Thanks
    1,013
    Thanked
    280 times in 225 posts

    Re: Should there be an EU referendum?

    I voted yes.

    I would like to have the pros and the cons of membership spelled out (as simply as possible) for me. I'm not hopeful that this will happen, though.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Stringent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Neverland
    Posts
    5,227
    Thanks
    45
    Thanked
    155 times in 117 posts
    • Stringent's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Intel DQ57TM
      • CPU:
      • Intel i5 760
      • Memory:
      • 8GB
      • Storage:
      • 1TB
      • Graphics card(s):
      • NVIDIA Geforce 260GTX
      • PSU:
      • Corsair HX620
      • Case:
      • Coolermaster Centurion
      • Operating System:
      • Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate x64
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dual Iiyama 24"
      • Internet:
      • Patchy

    Re: Should there be an EU referendum?

    The problem is, I don't think the general people are informed enough to make such a decision. There is probably a lot more benefit being in Europe than out of it than people realise and the spin is that its a load of rubbish and we should get out. Thus the whole thing is not clear cut. Yes we should have the right to keep our sovereignty with regards to laws and their application. No appeal to the Euro court of rights. Stuff them interfering with what we want to do with our country (not saying we are right all the time).

    I would like to see/read the benefits and cons of being in Europe as I have no real idea myself.

  5. #5
    Admin (Ret'd)
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    18,481
    Thanks
    1,016
    Thanked
    3,208 times in 2,281 posts

    Re: Should there be an EU referendum?

    I cartainly take both the above points. This is a serious issue, with huge political implications, and some significant (though arguable) economic risks. It therefore deserves a proper, adult discussion of the issues, the pro's and con's, to inform any choice we are given.

    And, I have to say I have reservations about the ability of a lot of people to take on some of the implicstions, or about wherher they care enough to bother. But then, that's a core problem with democracy and the only real solution is some form of meritocracy, which immediately raises a problem of deciding just who merits a vote, and on what basis.

    I guess that's part of the meaning of the old adage about democracy being the worst form if government known to man, except for all the others that have been tried.

  6. #6
    jim
    jim is offline
    HEXUS.clueless jim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Location: Location:
    Posts
    11,435
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked
    1,639 times in 1,304 posts
    • jim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus Maximus IV Gene-Z
      • CPU:
      • i5 2500K @ 4.5GHz
      • Memory:
      • 8GB Corsair Vengeance LP
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Sandisk SSD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • ASUS GTX 970
      • PSU:
      • Corsair AX650
      • Case:
      • Silverstone Fortress FT03
      • Operating System:
      • 8.1 Pro
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell S2716DG
      • Internet:
      • 10 Mbps ADSL

    Re: Should there be an EU referendum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Smudger View Post
    I've voted yes, but I guess my fear is that The Mail etc will go into overdrive to try to tell people how to vote...
    I agree with this.

    The one plus point that I believe may come out of a referendum is that for once, instead of having the Daily Mail and UKIP telling us why Europe is bad, and how it's costing us a fortune, for once the big parties will have to come out and explain why it's good for us. So far they haven't had to do that, but if this comes up they will, and perhaps people will begin to understand that it isn't simply some huge black hole we hurl money into, as is often suggested.

    Also, in the long run, for better or for worse, I think it would be good for us as a nation to actually decide. A lot of people feel somewhat disenfranchised over this at present, and I think if you can't take into consideration the electorate's wishes, then you're not much of a democracy.

  7. Received thanks from:

    nichomach (15-01-2013)

  8. #7
    LUSE Galant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gibraltar
    Posts
    3,212
    Thanks
    466
    Thanked
    542 times in 331 posts

    Re: Should there be an EU referendum?

    Yes. As above, because this is a democracy.

    On the issue of 'meritocracy', the very notion of democracy precludes any notion of 'people don't know what's best for them', since democracy states that what the people choose is best. The only real way I can see to address the issue is to take people seriously and see to it that they have everything they need in order to make an informed and responsible decision and encourage responsibility and responsible decision making. The politicians need to take the focus of themselves and their own 'careers' and instead put it upon the country, which is the people, and where they are heading and highlight their ability to direct it, to whatever extent.

    Sadly, that's not the case. 'Daddy' knows what's best and we'll be driven there no matter what. Which is why we won't get a referendum, at least, not until it's certain we'll vote the 'right' way, or we'll get a referendum that's limited and pointless which won't change anything in the long run.
    No trees were harmed in the creation of this message. However, many electrons were displaced and terribly inconvenienced.

  9. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    168
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked
    12 times in 12 posts

    Re: Should there be an EU referendum?

    A referendum seems to be the only way to really clear the air and move forward (whether that be inwards or outwards!). Both for those at home and abroad the lack of clarity and intent has dragged on too long - the question of are we a Norway/Switzerland or are we a France/Germany (are we here just for the commercial or also the political integration (which we can of course aim to define in our terms with 'allies' such as Poland)) needs to answered. The UK continuing to be piggy-in-the-middle is getting uncomfortable and boring.

    Sadly, I too believe that, just the AV referendum, if there is a referendum on this it won't be a good display of informed decision-making.

  10. #9
    Mostly Me Lucio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Tring
    Posts
    5,163
    Thanks
    443
    Thanked
    448 times in 351 posts
    • Lucio's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Gigabyte GA-970A-UD3P
      • CPU:
      • AMD FX-6350 with Cooler Master Seldon 240
      • Memory:
      • 2x4GB Corsair DDR3 Vengeance
      • Storage:
      • 128GB Toshiba, 2.5" SSD, 1TB WD Blue WD10EZEX, 500GB Seagate Baracuda 7200.11
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Sapphire R9 270X 4GB
      • PSU:
      • 600W Silverstone Strider SST-ST60F
      • Case:
      • Cooler Master HAF XB
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 8.1 64Bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • Samsung 2032BW, 1680 x 1050
      • Internet:
      • 16Mb Plusnet

    Re: Should there be an EU referendum?

    I voted no, I don't think holding a referendum will help as at this point, it's not feasible for our nation to extract itself from the EU. It would therefore be a waste of money to put into place

    (\___/) (\___/) (\___/) (\___/) (\___/) (\___/) (\___/)
    (='.'=) (='.'=) (='.'=) (='.'=) (='.'=) (='.'=) (='.'=)
    (")_(") (")_(") (")_(") (")_(") (")_(") (")_(") (")_(")


    This is bunny and friends. He is fed up waiting for everyone to help him out, and decided to help himself instead!

  11. #10
    Admin (Ret'd)
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    18,481
    Thanks
    1,016
    Thanked
    3,208 times in 2,281 posts

    Re: Should there be an EU referendum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stringent View Post
    The problem is, I don't think the general people are informed enough to make such a decision. There is probably a lot more benefit being in Europe than out of it than people realise and the spin is that its a load of rubbish and we should get out. Thus the whole thing is not clear cut. Yes we should have the right to keep our sovereignty with regards to laws and their application. No appeal to the Euro court of rights. Stuff them interfering with what we want to do with our country (not saying we are right all the time).

    I would like to see/read the benefits and cons of being in Europe as I have no real idea myself.
    Well, can try to bring a little clarity to that, right now.

    The ECHR is not part of the EU. The European Court of Justice (ECJ) is, but the ECHR is not.

    It's like this.

    We have the Council of Europe, which covers nearly 50 European countries, including but not limited to the EU countries, and we have the EU, with, currently, 27 members.

    The EU states are subject to the ECJ as member states, but are subject to the ECHR (and I mean the Court, not the convention that it enforces) by virtue of a separate membership to the EU.

    We are NOT bound to be subject to the ECHR (court) by virtue of EU membership, but we are bound (by EU membership) to the principles of the EcHR (and this time, I mean fhe convention), because of EU membership.

    So, we could separate from the ECHR (court), decide for ourselves, such as by the UK Supreme Court following the UK HRA (Human Rights Act), as enacted by the UK Parliament, which is our domestic implementation of the European Convention of Human Rights.

    In other words, the issue we have with the European Court of Human Rights is not, at least directly, anything to do with the EU, or our membership of it.

    Even the EU's ECJ is not bound by the ECHR (court), though it does give serious consideration to it's decisions. It is, though, bound by the principles of the EcHR (convention), just not the ECHR's interpretation of them.

    I hope that's a bit clearer.

    It's also a bit off-topic. Excuse me a sec' while I give myself a slap.

  12. Received thanks from:

    Stringent (15-01-2013)

  13. #11
    Admin (Ret'd)
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    18,481
    Thanks
    1,016
    Thanked
    3,208 times in 2,281 posts

    Re: Should there be an EU referendum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucio View Post
    I voted no, I don't think holding a referendum will help as at this point, it's not feasible for our nation to extract itself from the EU. It would therefore be a waste of money to put into place
    I disagree that it's not feasible, but if that's your view, it's certainly a good reason for voting no.

  14. #12
    Admin (Ret'd)
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    18,481
    Thanks
    1,016
    Thanked
    3,208 times in 2,281 posts

    Re: Should there be an EU referendum?

    Quote Originally Posted by snootyjim View Post
    ....

    The one plus point that I believe may come out of a referendum is that for once, instead of having the Daily Mail and UKIP telling us why Europe is bad, and how it's costing us a fortune, for once the big parties will have to come out and explain why it's good for us. So far they haven't had to do that, but if this comes up they will, and perhaps people will begin to understand that it isn't simply some huge black hole we hurl money into, as is often suggested.
    Personally, I think anyone that thinks the EU is either wholly good for us or wholly bad for us is either an idealogical fool, or simply sadly deluded.

    That's precisely why we need a proper referendum, and by that, I don't just mean a snap vote, but something more like the Scottish referendum on dependence looks to be, where quite a long time is spent having a proper discussion of the issues, economic and otherwise. Then, and only then, let the people decide ..... without the rank deceit Heath used last time. Let's have a serious, informed and adult debate.

    But we have to accept we can lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink. Similarly, we make make all sorts of views and information available to the electorate, but we cannot make them pay attention.


    Quote Originally Posted by snootyjim View Post
    ....

    Also, in the long run, for better or for worse, I think it would be good for us as a nation to actually decide. A lot of people feel somewhat disenfranchised over this at present, and I think if you can't take into consideration the electorate's wishes, then you're not much of a democracy.
    Quite.

  15. #13
    Senior Member Stringent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Neverland
    Posts
    5,227
    Thanks
    45
    Thanked
    155 times in 117 posts
    • Stringent's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Intel DQ57TM
      • CPU:
      • Intel i5 760
      • Memory:
      • 8GB
      • Storage:
      • 1TB
      • Graphics card(s):
      • NVIDIA Geforce 260GTX
      • PSU:
      • Corsair HX620
      • Case:
      • Coolermaster Centurion
      • Operating System:
      • Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate x64
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dual Iiyama 24"
      • Internet:
      • Patchy

    Re: Should there be an EU referendum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    It's also a bit off-topic. Excuse me a sec' while I give myself a slap.
    Slap accepted Thanks for that. I'd prefer reading it off someone who makes sense than the Daily Fail or even the Government!

  16. #14
    The late but legendary peterb - Onward and Upward peterb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Looking down & checking on swearing
    Posts
    19,378
    Thanks
    2,892
    Thanked
    3,403 times in 2,693 posts

    Re: Should there be an EU referendum?

    I'm in favour of a referendum in principle, but it will depend on the question posed. As someone who was just eligible to vote at the last one, I now feel conned. I was in favour of a common market (although I had reservations about the effect that would have on our traditional trading partners) but I certainly would not have voted in favour of political union, or the attempted creation of a European Super State.

    If European states wish to surrender control over their economies to a European Central Bank with a common currency, then fine, it is very convenient to me personally, but I have no wish to see the UK join it. Neither do I wish to see sovereign powers surrendered to a self serving polyglot that junkets between Brussels and Strasbourg.

    So Common Market YES, Political Super State NO.
    (\__/)
    (='.'=)
    (")_(")

    Been helped or just 'Like' a post? Use the Thanks button!
    My broadband speed - 750 Meganibbles/minute

  17. #15
    Gentoo Ricer
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Galway
    Posts
    11,048
    Thanks
    1,016
    Thanked
    944 times in 704 posts
    • aidanjt's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus Strix Z370-G
      • CPU:
      • Intel i7-8700K
      • Memory:
      • 2x8GB Corsiar LPX 3000C15
      • Storage:
      • 500GB Samsung 960 EVO
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVGA GTX 970 SC ACX 2.0
      • PSU:
      • EVGA G3 750W
      • Case:
      • Fractal Design Define C Mini
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10 Pro
      • Monitor(s):
      • Asus MG279Q
      • Internet:
      • 240mbps Virgin Cable

    Re: Should there be an EU referendum?

    Yes, Cameron has been skirting around referendum to give himself leverage in negotiations with the EU far too many times, it's now a matter of national interest and he should put his money where his mouth is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent View Post
    ...every time Creative bring out a new card range their advertising makes it sound like they have discovered a way to insert a thousand Chuck Norris super dwarfs in your ears...

  18. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    524
    Thanks
    38
    Thanked
    40 times in 34 posts

    Re: Should there be an EU referendum?

    In principal I agree that a referendum would be helpful in putting the issue to rest to some extent, but given that most of the mainstream press have been spinning what a bad thing the EU is for as long as I can remember I can't really see many people making an informed choice, and I include myself in this. I personally suspect that being in the EU is on the whole a good thing, but I'd be hard pressed to explain why beyond vague generalities.

    You only need to look at the recent referendum on voting reform to see how an "informed public debate" might look. The arguments put across by both sides were piss poor, and that was on a subject that hadn't had years of negative press. A know a large number of people who voted against changing the voting system, simply because they didn't understand what the alternative was.

    And I'm also not convinced that now is the right time anyway. Europe is changing and if we're canny we could perhaps get some changes in our favour. Although I don't think this is very likely if the current government continues with it's current approach. Also whatever the long term affect, the short term costs of leaving the EU would be pretty high, both for the taxpayer, and probably for business as well, and I don't think now is the right time to be applying those sort of costs.

  19. Received thanks from:

    nichomach (15-01-2013)

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •