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Thread: Elon Musk: 787 batteries bad by design

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    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Elon Musk: 787 batteries bad by design

    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...unsafe-381627/

    The lithium ion batteries installed on the Boeing 787 are inherently unsafe, says Elon Musk, founder of SpaceX and owner of electric car maker Tesla.

    "Unfortunately, the pack architecture supplied to Boeing is inherently unsafe," writes Musk in an email to Flightglobal.

    "Large cells without enough space between them to isolate against the cell-to-cell thermal domino effect means it is simply a matter of time before there are more incidents of this nature," he adds.
    The problem for boeing is space is such a premium for them do they have the room to split the cells up?

    Musk has tweeted before that he is talking with the lead design team of the 787, so I don't know if this is just political posturing in winning work, but either way, fascinating.
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    Re: Elon Musk: 787 batteries bad by design

    I thought they had already ruled out the batteries being the issue?

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    Re: Elon Musk: 787 batteries bad by design

    well the fire started in the battery....ist the `how` they want to know , and this could very well be the answer. that and the whole aft EE bay and fire suppression is being questioned since it took a full team 40 minutes to completely put out the fire in boston ; would have been no hope in the air for the firebird

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    Re: Elon Musk: 787 batteries bad by design

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    I thought they had already ruled out the batteries being the issue?
    Sort off. They confermed the batteries were inline with tolerence levels.

    The problem with lipols normally become apparent when something else happens. Say over charging, or over-discharging. A failure with the control circuitry to understand the demands or similar. The control circuitry is what makes lipol possible, chemically they are no real differen't to the ones we knew about 30+ years ago. It's all about the control!
    Quote Originally Posted by HalloweenJack View Post
    well the fire started in the battery....ist the `how` they want to know , and this could very well be the answer. that and the whole aft EE bay and fire suppression is being questioned since it took a full team 40 minutes to completely put out the fire in boston ; would have been no hope in the air for the firebird
    Exactly, this is how something that is outside of designed operating params can create a fire.

    The other issue is, unlike say the cargo hold, there is no fire supression installed in bays where these batteries live. But actually it wouldn't do much good by my understanding as lipols contain all they need to burn, you can immerse one in water, it would still be producing its own oxygen.

    However, how bad would a fire be in one of these bays? It wouldn't be a make the craft drop out of the sky type disaster, the 787 like any remotely modern design should be able to survive with two massive holes in it!
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    Re: Elon Musk: 787 batteries bad by design

    I think though if the whole aft EE bay failed , it would be quite a significant problem, was mentioned on pprune; is the whole fire suppression system to let it burn a hole in the hull and carry on regardless although if you look at the photo`s , the fire wasn't contained within the battery or the battery box - it was working up the power lines!

    and yes was going to mention the self sustaining aspect of these batteries , once a thermal runaway starts , its takes a lot to stop it.

    ni-cads would be a temporty solution , and yes they are heavier , but if the rumour mill is true , the 787 isn't performing as advertised anyway

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    Re: Elon Musk: 787 batteries bad by design

    Quote Originally Posted by HalloweenJack View Post
    ni-cads would be a temporty solution , and yes they are heavier , but if the rumour mill is true , the 787 isn't performing as advertised anyway
    Not metal-hydride? You don't really want cadmium around if you can help it.

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    Re: Elon Musk: 787 batteries bad by design

    the 737NG has NiCd = 36Ah @ 24v (20 cell) ; the A320 has 23Ah @24v for starting the APU , again NiCd


    edit:

    even the A380 uses NiCd as the APU battery (it has 3 of them , 2 for power and 1 for APU start) - Li-Ion is used for emergency lighting only

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    Re: Elon Musk: 787 batteries bad by design

    Wall off some seating for the batteries - and the Carriers can charge Boeing the going rate for the lost seats!

    ... mmm I wonder if the batteries will choose to fly first class?

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