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Thread: What's the point in jail?

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    mush-mushroom b0redom's Avatar
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    What's the point in jail?

    This isn't going to be a DailyWail rant about how easy prisoners get it.

    I'm geniunely interested in what people think the point of prison is. I thought that it was supposed to act as:

    1) A deterrent for people comitting crimes in the 1st place
    2) A facility to remove the purportrators of crime from society

    Given that Chris Huhne is now looking at jail time (which will presumably be in some sort of openish prison, and we've had Jeffrey Archer in an open prison writing his latest novel, I would argue that 1) has not worked.

    Furthermore I'd say that given that they have not participated in any form of violence 2) is a bit pointless.

    It costs a lot of money to house prisoners, and I reckon that for non-violent crimes, asset stripping, imposing a massively punative tax regimes, and/or very long periods of community service would be much more of a deterrent and benefit to soceity.

    IMO Jail sentences should be for violent offenders to remove them from society as a whole.

    Discuss.

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    Re: What's the point in jail?

    Gives them time to reflect on what they've done. Jail is not just to remove the dregs from society, it's also to remove freedoms and form a punishment. Chris Huhne will have plenty of time to reflect when (if?) he's put away, and will have a stigma forever. That'll learn him...

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    mush-mushroom b0redom's Avatar
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    Re: What's the point in jail?

    Yeah, but he'd also have plenty of time to reflect whilst tidying up a local park in a day glo overcoat with 'community service worker' on it, would contribute more back to society and wouldn't be costing the taxpayer even more cash. You could even put him under a curfew so he couldn't leave the house after say 6pm.

    I would be _very_ surprised if he wasn't put in some form of open/low security prison. He's hardly likely to be meeting Bubba in the showers.

    He'd still have the stigma there too, you get that from being convicted, not from being inside.

    Ultimately it's about cost/benefit to society. Although I'm sure the tabloids will jump up and down with glee as a politician is handed down a custodial sentence, really, what's the point? He'll go spend a year in a jail cell, and then what? It's not like he's going to do it again in any case, so there's no benefit there.

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    Re: What's the point in jail?

    1. has always been weighted against the chance of getting caught in the first place.

    Giving time to reflect is a fair purpose. But it is also fair to ask whether the (financial) cost warrants it, and whether there are ways to accomplish the same with less costs.

    Community service is pretty sound to me. If it was up to me, I'd say flogging (Singapore style - and doesn't need to be many - perhaps 1 is sufficient for speeding) + community service for non violent crimes.

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    Re: What's the point in jail?

    It's not just about putting off the person who has been caught, but putting off people who would commit the crime if it wasn't seen that people got punished for it.

    It's not just violent people we want off the streets, it's also dangerous nutters who might cause danger to others through recklessness or perhaps selling sub-standard/illegal goods.

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    Re: What's the point in jail?

    I do wonder whether we would benefit from a multi-stage justice system:

    1) prison - uncomfortable, but humane. ie no mod cons, enough food to keep you alive and not mal-nourished, but no creature comforts. Enough exercise to keep you from wasting away. No sky TV and the like.

    2) rehabilitation, only if you've behaved and served your full term in 1) which gets extended for bad behaviour, not reduced for good behaviour. This stage would still be controlled but here you get training for when you go out

    3) community service on release from 2). Still tagged, still have curfew, employment to monitor how you get on. Help in checking how you're managing your finances etc. Not allowed to go abroad, no passport.

    Once that's done, then you can go back into society as a free man. Yes it does cost. But once you've been a victim of crime, and seen the people who assaulted you or worse get off scot free then you will think very differently about soft justice. Frankly the criminal waives their "human rights" the moment they perpetrate a crime. Punishment first, then rehabilitation and all that stuff comes next. Not either or and certainly not just the latter.

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    Re: What's the point in jail?

    How about asset stripping AND jail using the former to fund the latter? Where a person has no assets, jail and benefit stripping is an alternative.

    Whatever, it shouldn't be the taxpayer that foots the bill.

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    Re: What's the point in jail?

    The prison system in this country is bonkers. No doubt about that.

    Open prisons were meant originally, as I understand it, to help re-integration and rehabilitation, a fine enough goal, but the idea of one being used for actual sentencing is just stupid IMO. Prison, should be prison, at least for the meat of your sentence.

    On 1) not working well that's because our prisons generally aren't to bad a place to live. Sky TV, xbox, PS3, pool tables, 4 squares, no responsibilities, work or stress, lots of like minded people to share your time and drugs with and you even get your ciggies courtesy of the taxpayer. Many criminals state openly that it's better than being out, hell I've got no record and don't have most of those things and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Personally I think it should be humane and not much more. A cell, food, water, couple of hours exercise and education/rehabilitation. No TV, ciggies or other luxuries. Those are for law abiding citizens. Don't like it? Don't come back. Prison can only be a deterrent if it is a noticeably less pleasant existence than your free life and you have to spend more than a few weeks there.

    I disagree on your point about it not being worthwhile for anyone other than violent offenders due to cost. The 'non-violent' little oik who likes go joyriding is going to cost the taxpayer a great deal more being chased around by helicopters, dogs and high performance cars, being investigated, increasing your insurance etc etc etc. than he is locked in a small room with 3 squares a day. Even a simple criminal investigation can cost huge amounts of money and man hours, not to mention the economic effects on victims and communities and many non-violent criminal activities are highly dangerous, that non-violent joyrider will kill somebody if he does it long enough. A day of imprisonment will never cost as much as a day of crime aside from any moral argument. Community orders and alike have proven to be a massive failure.

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    Re: What's the point in jail?

    But the problem is that it currently IS the tax payer who foots the bill. Asset stripping and jail still doesn't really accomplish anything does it? Why can't non-violent offenders be asset stripped to provide some cost towards housing violent offenders, and then be put to work in a capacity which benefits society.

    I'll say again, I see absolutely no benefit in Chris Huhne being accommodated at the tax payers expense. Sure it'll sell a few papers as people crow over how he's banged up. But really in the end it will end up costing the tax payers lots of money and for what?

    'Nutters' is a bit of an emotive word, but if people are mentally unbalanced then they won't be in jail anyway, they'll be in a secure institution.

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    jim
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    Re: What's the point in jail?

    I would favour fines, but only if they actually mattered.

    Wasn't there a case in Switzerland a few years back where someone paid over £100k for a speeding ticket, because fines there are done as a percentage of income/net worth? I wouldn't mind it if that was the way things were done, but if people like Huhne were fined £1,500 then I'd be deeply unimpressed.

    As long as prison is a sufficient deterrent (right now I don't believe it is), then I've no objection to people like him being locked up for 1 year, even if it's not particularly expedient to anyone involved.

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    Re: What's the point in jail?

    Quote Originally Posted by snootyjim View Post
    I would favour fines, but only if they actually mattered.

    Wasn't there a case in Switzerland a few years back where someone paid over £100k for a speeding ticket, because fines there are done as a percentage of income/net worth? I wouldn't mind it if that was the way things were done, but if people like Huhne were fined £1,500 then I'd be deeply unimpressed.

    As long as prison is a sufficient deterrent (right now I don't believe it is), then I've no objection to people like him being locked up for 1 year, even if it's not particularly expedient to anyone involved.
    There have been higher since then, current highest is £538,000. I wholly agree that fines should be proportionate to your ability to pay. For the sake of not only deterrence but also fairness. A £1500 fine would be crushing for me and alot of people, but some people spend more than that on a single meal or bottle of wine.

    While I'd agree that locking Huhne up will not be of huge immediate benefit, well apart from putting an end to his speeding, lying and political career(wait that's the same as lying isn't it? ). There is also benefit in showing that criminal behaviour is wholly unacceptable to us as a society particularly a when it comes to crimes as serious as perverting the course of justice and increasing confidence in the criminal justice system, both these will always benefit victims down the line. Personally, for those reasons and the fact he should be held to a higher standard as a member of parliament he should face far more than one year. 5 would be more acceptable to me, an actual 5 mind you, not 18 months and an anklet.

    On other peoples points about the taxpayers footing the bill, if you aren't willing to put your hand in your pocket for justice, ergo expend effort to build a just society with the rule of law, you wont get and wont deserve one.

    EDIT: http://www.civitas.org.uk/pubs/prisonValue.php A link I came across looking for that fine, interesting though even they admit the numbers are open for debate.

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    Re: What's the point in jail?

    The problem with fines is what do you do about people who can't afford to pay them?

    If someone who is very poor commits a crime is a 1p fine going to put them off?

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    Re: What's the point in jail?

    Quote Originally Posted by b0redom View Post
    I'm geniunely interested in what people think the point of prison is. I thought that it was supposed to act as:

    1) A deterrent for people comitting crimes in the 1st place
    2) A facility to remove the purportrators of crime from society
    It was, then we left what was probably our last great era, the Victorian one, and moved through 2 world wars and 1 world cup, everyone got all namby pamby and "better world" etc, and we ended up with a system that just disrupted the convicts schedule for a while, mostly inconveniencing family members, who end up just having to accept it because they have little other choice.

    Prisons need to be more Guantanamo Bay and less Butlins, and at least have big screens and phones between visitors and inmates.

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    Re: What's the point in jail?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    The problem with fines is what do you do about people who can't afford to pay them?

    If someone who is very poor commits a crime is a 1p fine going to put them off?
    Well, usually you would set a lower limit so that they don't become irrelevant, and then as for people who can't afford them, you could send in bailiffs, take it directly from their earnings/benefits, or offer an alternative of going to prison. I think the latter would probably be the most likely, fairest and easiest.

    Point is, if we know that sending people to prison will cost the government a huge amount of money, then if it's possible to flip that around and generate income instead, it's quite a useful tool. Where the boundary comes is important, of course - I'm not sure how many people would favour murderers being able to skip prison if they can pay £5m for instance.

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    Re: What's the point in jail?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    The problem with fines is what do you do about people who can't afford to pay them?

    If someone who is very poor commits a crime is a 1p fine going to put them off?
    It's about proportionality. Every adult in this country has an income of some sort. Even if it's benefits. Though fines aren't the answer in every case obviously, a lot more could be done with them to strengthen and improve our criminal justice system.

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    Re: What's the point in jail?

    Deterrence - fear of going to prison/punishment
    Retribution - deprivation of liberty
    Prevention - stops an offender from re-committing while he/she is removed from society
    Rehabilitation - enabling an offender to lead a more productive life on release

    Sadly the last is often overlooked, although the parole/probation system does provide some support.

    The retribution element is the one most often focused on - deprivation of liberty is fairly drastic, and for some the associated stigma. The latter may be more of a punishment for Huhne as he has lost his career. For a career criminal, loss of liberty might be regarded as one of the hazards of the job, of even a 'badge of honour'

    The cost to the tax payer is the cost of maintaining a relatively civilized society as part of a criminal justice system, rather than rule by lynch mob.
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