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Thread: Should Iain Duncan Smith Be Walking The Plank?

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    Should Iain Duncan Smith Be Walking The Plank?

    Poundland Free Labour Work Scheme Ruled 'Unlawful', Cait Reilly And Jamieson Wilson Win Appeal (Huffingtonpost)
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    Government's flagship work scheme in crisis after Poundland 'slavery' case ruling (Independent)
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    If you're a government minister and your entire policy framework for tackling long-term unemployed is called 'Slave labour' / 'slavery' by judges should you be handing in your resignation?

    Your views..

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    Re: Should Iain Duncan Smith Be Walking The Plank?

    I think it was an interesting proposition, but implemented disastrously.

    As for walking the plank, if there was somebody who we knew was phenomenally capable sitting in the wings, ready to take over, then sure. As it is, we'd be trading in a highly experienced politician for a newbie/nobody, or just start the dreaded reshuffle which means a newbie comes in somewhere along the line into one of the departments. I've no doubt it would make some people feel better, because somebody has paid the price for a massive cock-up, but I don't think it would be particularly beneficial in the long run.

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    Re: Should Iain Duncan Smith Be Walking The Plank?

    the concept of working-for-the-dole , i do actually support (and getting the free loaders off DLA when they shouldnt be entitled to it - theres enough heavily disbaled people that deserve it)

    but the implementation is wrong - basically poundland were paying (i htink) for those on jsa to do menial work for them

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    Re: Should Iain Duncan Smith Be Walking The Plank?

    It shouldn't be allowed anyway as it's just a big scam to fiddle the jobless numbers, anyone who's on this crap counts as employed. You can argue people get paid £75 a week but not from Poundland, Tesco etc. Besides we are talking 20-30 hours per week for £75 which is £2.50 - £3.75 per hour! The minimum wage for 18 to 20 is £4.98 and for 21 and over is £6.19!
    Also as this girl pointed out... while she was forced to do this rubbish she didnt have much time to actually look for a real job.

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    Re: Should Iain Duncan Smith Be Walking The Plank?

    Yeah, I'm with the 'right intentions but poorly implemented' camp. People who weren't actually doing anything could have been made to work for benefits, but those who were actively doing volunteer work or regularly attending interviews should be left to get on with it.

    The old 'friend of a friend' had the issue where he was having to spend a significant chunk of allowance to travel to stack shelves, no training, no benefit to him or relevance to future employment, and unable to get on with looking for a real job.

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    Re: Should Iain Duncan Smith Be Walking The Plank?

    There is also the issue that employers are using the back-to-work people instead of fully-paid staff, thus not really solving the issue.

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    Re: Should Iain Duncan Smith Be Walking The Plank?

    So split my thoughts here.

    Yes, IDS should be sacked. Indeed it always seems to me that the MPs or Civil servants that cause these huge cockups get away scot free. Take the recent West-Coast main line debacle that will cost us Millions. Much as it might not be easy to replace them, there's no way there shouldn't have been mass-sackings. And even if the minister wasn't doing it knowingly, as said to me many times - you can delegate work, but you can't delegate responsibility.

    And onto the other half. Yes doing the work at poundland is a good idea. Paying less than minimum wage isn't, and indeed in these instances it should remove the JSA pyaments. Yes they should be allowed to go to job interviews, take time off to "research", but I can't see why that non-working time should be paid for or propped up by JSA payments.

    So in short, no more Jobseeker payments, instead minimum wage payments and working for a living instead.

    Just my 2p.

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    Re: Should Iain Duncan Smith Be Walking The Plank?

    Quote Originally Posted by pp05 View Post
    ....

    If you're a government minister and your entire policy framework for tackling long-term unemployed is called 'Slave labour' / 'slavery' by judges should you be handing in your resignation?

    Your views..
    Maybe, if the judgement said it was slave labour, but the simple fact is, it didn't. Read the judgement.

    It re-affirmed that the principle was NOT slave labour, that it didn't breach the ECHR (Article 4(2) to be specific) or HRA, and that the government was legally entitled to impose such work requirements on unemployment benefits, and such sanctions.

    What it did rule unlawful was rather more technical, which was that the regulations, as formulated, did not disclose adequate detail to Parliament, as required by the enabling legislation, and was therefore, effectively, ultra-vires, and abut the nature of the information imparted to the two applicants .... though the details were different between the two.

    It's not about what the government did, but about how they did it.

    The Secretary of State may be the one carrying the "buck stops here" burden, but the precise wording of legislation, and regulations, is done by government lawyers, and no non-lawyer can reasonably be expected to second-guess that, to determine whether the lawyers writing the Regs are right, or the judges reviewing their work are.

    Sure, there has been a screw up, and it could be argued that as the department screwed up, the head of the department is responsible. In decades past, that might have been enough to see a ministerial resignation, but we've seen travesty after travesty for many years, with almost no ministerial acceptance of liability for cockups, and that applies to New Labour every bit as much as the current government. Seeking to portray this as some kind of court endorsement of the "slavery" or forced argument is simply factually wrong.

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    Re: Should Iain Duncan Smith Be Walking The Plank?

    Quote Originally Posted by phil4 View Post
    ....

    And onto the other half. Yes doing the work at poundland is a good idea. Paying less than minimum wage isn't, and indeed in these instances it should remove the JSA pyaments. Yes they should be allowed to go to job interviews, take time off to "research", but I can't see why that non-working time should be paid for or propped up by JSA payments.

    ....
    Being forced to do unpaid work, Poundland or otherwise, to keep JSA is, in my view, entirely fair PROVIDED that work meets the objective of the scheme, that being to aid the JSA claimant in getting proper work.

    That covers a variety of aspects, including some non-specific ones, like developing personal discipline required for work (getting up in the morning, showing up on time, all the time, team-work, personal appearance, etc) and these can (not necessarily always are, but can be an issue with long-term unemployed. They can also include training, relevant experience, chance of a permanent job at the end, and so on.

    All that is fair enough.

    But making someone go and do cheap unpaid labour that doesn't have any beneficial effect for the applicant, and is just a way of getting a store's floors swept on the cheap, well, that is (IMHO, of course) not within the purposes of the Regulations used, or the enabling statute. Not is it fair.

    So, as with my last post, the problem is not with the principle in use, but perhaps is with the application in certain instances. The big problem there, though, is to determine just who gets to decide that's relevant and beneficial, especially in those soft, non-specific areas I mentioned. It certainly cannot just be the applicant, or those not wanting to do the placement will just decide it's not relevant, and that nothing is. But who does decide?

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    Re: Should Iain Duncan Smith Be Walking The Plank?

    IDS is a plank .

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    Re: Should Iain Duncan Smith Be Walking The Plank?

    Quote Originally Posted by santa claus View Post
    IDS is a plank .
    That made me laugh.

    Actually, though, I think he's one of the more sincere politicians. Like him or not, agree with him or not, I get the impression he's far more across his brief that almost any other minister, and that he genuinely believes in what he's doing.

    He is, in other words, the right sort of conviction politician ... unlike, of course, Mr Huhne.

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    Re: Should Iain Duncan Smith Be Walking The Plank?

    or mr david baboon

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    Re: Should Iain Duncan Smith Be Walking The Plank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    That made me laugh.

    Actually, though, I think he's one of the more sincere politicians. Like him or not, agree with him or not, I get the impression he's far more across his brief that almost any other minister, and that he genuinely believes in what he's doing.

    He is, in other words, the right sort of conviction politician ... unlike, of course, Mr Huhne.
    I know what you mean. But the title was just a sitter...

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    Re: Should Iain Duncan Smith Be Walking The Plank?

    Quote Originally Posted by santa claus View Post
    ... .But the title was just a sitter...
    Indeed. I'm still a bit miffed at myself for not spotting it.

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