Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 16 of 44

Thread: Illegal motorway speed signs

  1. #1
    Admin (Ret'd)
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    18,481
    Thanks
    1,016
    Thanked
    3,208 times in 2,281 posts

    Illegal motorway speed signs

    I can't post a link as I saw this via a news aggregator app, but according to a BBC story, illuminated signs on the M42 were not legal because the characters were the wrong shape and size (too tall and thin).

    To be legal, signs need to comply with the relevant legislation, and these did not, ir in the absence of compluance, specific permission needs to be obtained from the Department of Transport, and it was not.

    Much like parking bay restrictions, they are specific written requirements for markings, and councilsy, goverment departments, etc, either comply or the markings amount to nothing more than road graffiti. To be "Traffic sign", it needs to comply, and if it doesn't, it has no more force than if I hung a "20" notice painted on a bit of hardboard up over the motorway.

    Yet, many people were convicted, fined and some even lost their licence, as a result of these illegal signs. At least 11,000 fixed penalties were issued lsst year alone, and these signs have been in operation since 2006. Police have dropped pending prosecutions and stopped using these signs for enforcement.

    The really irritating bit? The Highways Agency were, according to that BBC story, told these signs were wrong in 2009. But they only went to get specific permission for the variation about 4 months ago. So they sat with their thumbs where the sun don't shine for nearly 4 YEARS.

    And that revealed that similar signs had been in use, for years, on the M1, M6, M20, M25, and M40, casting doubts over the legaluty of penalties there, too.

    Police said they felt the signs were "fully illuminated and clearly showed what the speed limit should be". Very likely true, but the hint is in the "should be" bit, because if the signs weren't legal, they weren't showing what the limit was. An apparently, the Act authorising this type of sign actually prohibits conviction in the absence of valid traffic signs.

    Which begs the question .... if you've geen done by an illegal sign, are you entitled to :-

    a) your fines back, and/or
    b) your licence cleaned of any points, and/or
    c) compensation for increased insurance premiums, or other costs incurred?


    Oh, and for the record, permission for these signs has now been granted and as of Jan 1st, they're back in use and fully enforceable, so don't go blasting past them now.

  2. #2
    ho! ho! ho! mofo santa claus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    2,898
    Thanks
    386
    Thanked
    446 times in 304 posts

    Re: Illegal motorway speed signs

    The signs that didn't comply with the then relevant legislation will nonetheless have served to advise drivers that there was a speed limit. Drivers are familiar with this type of road sign and its font will have not made it less legible.

    The technical 'fault' with the sign is nowhere near as bad as the attitude of a driver who has knowingly chosen to break a law they are conversant with through their driving experience. In other words, they knew what they were up to and subsequently paid the price.

    I suggest if anyone wants to make a claim for the wrongful prosecution of speeding, then they step forward and have their case reviewed instead as willful dangerous driving.

    Or, they might stop trying to hide behind a technicality and keep their gob shut. It's this "things just aren't fair on me" attitude that's buggering up a whole lot of things in this Country.

  3. Received thanks from:

    capt_cornflake (09-03-2013),Spud1 (09-03-2013)

  4. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,119
    Thanks
    6
    Thanked
    94 times in 88 posts

    Re: Illegal motorway speed signs

    is it legal to ram one of the wrong font signs up the backside of the people who come up with the daft rules like this? who sits and decides that a sign must be a particular font for the law to apply? who creates the job spec and employs someone to have a job creating such ludicrous rules?

    the speed limit is the speed limit regardless of what the signs say, or what font or colour they should be in surely? if signs are clearly posted and legible to remind drivers of the law, surely common sense would say that's enough. and common sense might say that the signs font should be changed, and then get the signs changed, but not to end up in a position where people who read or ignored the signs and broke the law are entitled to fines back or points taken off. and when it gets to the situation where people lost jobs due to being banned for having too many points for speeding, but can now put in a claim because a font was wrong, even if they clearly read, understood and ignored the speed limit, then what hope do we have?

    the laws need a review so if there are silly things like this, things aren't back dated and criminals get pay outs or get off with offenses. as it's not just things like drivers and speed limits as this isn't the first and won't be the last time people get off due to a stupid technicality

  5. #4
    The late but legendary peterb - Onward and Upward peterb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Looking down & checking on swearing
    Posts
    19,378
    Thanks
    2,892
    Thanked
    3,403 times in 2,693 posts

    Re: Illegal motorway speed signs

    If only they had used those signs where Huhne was caught...
    (\__/)
    (='.'=)
    (")_(")

    Been helped or just 'Like' a post? Use the Thanks button!
    My broadband speed - 750 Meganibbles/minute

  6. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Oxfordshire
    Posts
    272
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked
    18 times in 17 posts
    • phil4's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus Sabertooth Z77
      • CPU:
      • Core i7-3770K @ 4.6Ghz
      • Memory:
      • 16Gb Corsair Dominator Platinum @ 1866Mhz
      • Storage:
      • OS: OCZ Vertex 4 256Gb, Data: 3Tb Seagate HDD, Cache: OCZ Agility 4 128Gb
      • Graphics card(s):
      • 2 x EVGA GTX 680 SC
      • PSU:
      • 750W Corsair Pro Series AX
      • Case:
      • Corsair Obsidian 650D Black
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 7 Ultimate 64Bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • 2 x Dell U2410 Ultrasharp
      • Internet:
      • Plusnet Fibre Unlimited 76/20
    Perhaps one reason the law is there is so that it can be properly decided if the proposed font and sign display -is- just as visible.

    Playing devils advocate for a second, who is to say that the new signs are as easy to read, such that the percentage misleading them or reading them too late is not increased? Was a study performed? I doubt it.

    Personally if find the 50 & 60 look too similar until quite close.

    While pedantic theses laws are about protecting the public by ensuring consistency.

    No I don't condone speeding. But I also don't condone people deciding the law doesn't apply to them (despite being told in 2009), and doing things how they want to.

  7. #6
    Theoretical Element Spud1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    North West
    Posts
    7,494
    Thanks
    335
    Thanked
    313 times in 249 posts
    • Spud1's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Gigabyte Aorus Master
      • CPU:
      • 9900k
      • Memory:
      • 16GB GSkill Trident Z
      • Storage:
      • Lots.
      • Graphics card(s):
      • RTX3090
      • PSU:
      • 750w
      • Case:
      • BeQuiet Dark Base Pro rev.2
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • Asus PG35VQ
      • Internet:
      • 910/100mb Fibre

    Re: Illegal motorway speed signs

    Quote Originally Posted by santa claus View Post
    The signs that didn't comply with the then relevant legislation will nonetheless have served to advise drivers that there was a speed limit. Drivers are familiar with this type of road sign and its font will have not made it less legible.

    The technical 'fault' with the sign is nowhere near as bad as the attitude of a driver who has knowingly chosen to break a law they are conversant with through their driving experience. In other words, they knew what they were up to and subsequently paid the price.

    I suggest if anyone wants to make a claim for the wrongful prosecution of speeding, then they step forward and have their case reviewed instead as willful dangerous driving.

    Or, they might stop trying to hide behind a technicality and keep their gob shut. It's this "things just aren't fair on me" attitude that's buggering up a whole lot of things in this Country.
    Well said

    Yes the signs might be illegal on a pure technicality - but that doesn't take away common sense from drivers. Who cares if the sign is 1mm too thin, they are perfectly legible (having driven on those stretches of road).

    If the signs were jet black and unreadable that's one thing - but if you were speeding you were speeding, and that's the real issue.

  8. #7
    Admin (Ret'd)
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    18,481
    Thanks
    1,016
    Thanked
    3,208 times in 2,281 posts

    Re: Illegal motorway speed signs

    Quote Originally Posted by Unique View Post
    is it legal to ram one of the wrong font signs up the backside of the people who come up with the daft rules like this? who sits and decides that a sign must be a particular font for the law to apply? who creates the job spec and employs someone to have a job creating such ludicrous rules?

    the speed limit is the speed limit regardless of what the signs say, or what font or colour they should be in surely? if signs are clearly posted and legible to remind drivers of the law, surely common sense would say that's enough. and common sense might say that the signs font should be changed, and then get the signs changed, but not to end up in a position where people who read or ignored the signs and broke the law are entitled to fines back or points taken off. and when it gets to the situation where people lost jobs due to being banned for having too many points for speeding, but can now put in a claim because a font was wrong, even if they clearly read, understood and ignored the speed limit, then what hope do we have?

    the laws need a review so if there are silly things like this, things aren't back dated and criminals get pay outs or get off with offenses. as it's not just things like drivers and speed limits as this isn't the first and won't be the last time people get off due to a stupid technicality
    Sadly, sign-ramming no doubt would be illegal. But as for the design of characters, etc, it's not as simple as you and Santa would have it, though I do have some sympathy for the principle of your position.

    There are regulations about signs, clear and very detailed regulations, for a couple of reasons. First, making sure signs are clear, visible, etc, protects all of us from ambush signs.

    Remember Hitchhiker's Guide to rhe Galaxy? Where the plans for the hyperspace bypass that meant Earth was destroyed were on "display", in a council vault in a basement on the third planet of a star in Alpha Centuri, behind a door marked "beware of the panther" where we were free to inspect them? Or something like that.

    Well, suppose the sign was in 3 point type? Or clear and large, in black on a black background? Or behind a tree? Or .... countless other ludicrous variants, or something less ludicrous but still unfair, giving people inadequate chance to see it?

    So, the strict regulation on signs is designed to, first, protect us, by ensuring they are up to a specification, but second, make it easy on the authorities by stipulating exactly how they are to be made, and appear.

    Without that, if the regs were less specific, there would be far greater chance of legal challenges on the basis that the signs were too small, not in clear colours, not in a readable font, not in a clear location, etc, and the authorities would have to defend against all such claims. So it's all laid out in detail and ALL they have to do is either follow it, or get specific DoT approval to deviate.

    And dob't forget that last bit. Even with exactly these signs, all they had to do was get DoT clearance, and they'd be legal, but they didn't, even after being told of the problem.

    So, the regulations lay down clear, detailed and specific instructions. And the professionals, the people being paid for a full-time job, cannot follow these regulations? The regulations that make all this possible?

    What comes to mind here is rank incompetence.

    If we, the motorist, break these laws, the full force of the state will be deployed against us/you. There is a whole police force out to catch us if we break laws, legions of lawyers in the CPS, and courts to impose fines, and authorise their bailiffs to break into our homes to seize property if we don't pay fines, and prisons to lock you up if you resist.

    And yet, the morons that created these signs can't even be bothered to follow their own flaming laws?

    So what is it? They are arrogant enough to think that they can slap up any old sign, and that's enough? Because it isn't. Or they're arrogant enough to think that we have to obey laws, but they don't? Or they're stupid enough to not know what the law says, or even more stupid, and know what it says but not be able to follow it?

    Just as it is NOT an enforceable parking restriction just because some twonk in a council decides to slap some yellow paint on a road, it is NOT a speed restriction if some idiot in the Highways agency decides that, instead of following the laws Parliament made over such signs, they'll do whatever the hell they feel like.

    Do we need speed limits? Yes. Should drivers follow them? Yes. Do you deserve to be fined, punished and even eventually banned if you don't? Yes.

    But by the same token, "authorities" that cannot follow their own rules deserve our contempt, and whoever the individuals behind this farce are, they deserve to be fired for gross incompetence. The rules are what they are, and it is their job to, first, know them, and second, follow them.

    Either they don't know, in which case they're not competent to be in the job, or they do, in which case they either aren't competent to follow the rules, or decided to ignore them. In either case, get someone in to do the job they're being paid, no doubt well, to do, and fire the morons.

    And for reference, I don't really have a dog in this fight. In some 40 years of driving, I've never been done for speeding, and for that matter, never had any points on my licence, never had any other blemishes, never been done for any offences resulting from my driving, never been prosecuted, etc.

    Drivers do deserve to be punished if they break laws and get caught, but authorities damn well ought to follow the law too. They are NOT exempt, and do NOT have the authority to make up rules as they see fit, and then ignore them when they feel like it.

    But, no doubt, just as is becoming the norm, those in authority will not face consequences when they screw up .... unless of course, your name is Mitchell and the police federation are on a witch-hunt for a ministerial scalp, because then, it seems, it's okay for police to make up reports, lie about events and leak to the press.

  9. #8
    Admin (Ret'd)
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    18,481
    Thanks
    1,016
    Thanked
    3,208 times in 2,281 posts

    Re: Illegal motorway speed signs

    Quote Originally Posted by santa claus View Post
    The signs that didn't comply with the then relevant legislation will nonetheless have served to advise drivers that there was a speed limit. Drivers are familiar with this type of road sign and its font will have not made it less legible.

    The technical 'fault' with the sign is nowhere near as bad as the attitude of a driver who has knowingly chosen to break a law they are conversant with through their driving experience. In other words, they knew what they were up to and subsequently paid the price.

    I suggest if anyone wants to make a claim for the wrongful prosecution of speeding, then they step forward and have their case reviewed instead as willful dangerous driving.

    Or, they might stop trying to hide behind a technicality and keep their gob shut. It's this "things just aren't fair on me" attitude that's buggering up a whole lot of things in this Country.
    The problem with that is that if the signs were not compliant, they were NOT breaking the speed limit, because it wasn't a speed limit, It was, as that quote said, what it was intended to be, but simply going a bit faster than a speed limit, even if it had been legit, does NOT, on it's own, constitute dangerous driving. If it did, that's what the prosectuion would be for.

    But that's not the point of the thread. The speed limit should have been what was intended, and then, drivers would be duly liable for speeding, if they broke it. But they weren't, because of the arrogance and/or incompetence of tne Highways Agency. And it's not like they weren't told, Santa. They were, and ignored it for several years, and only did what they should have, which was to get DoT approval, a few months back, after years of operating illegal signs.

    They were told these signs were wrong. So, did they ignore that because they were arrogant enough to believe they were right, when they weren't, or because they were lazy and arrogant enough to think it didn't matter, and they could do as they damned well pleased?

    And this is not an isolated case.

    Only a few days ago, thousands of people had convictions for driving in a bus lane overturned because of, yes, illegal signs. Again, the authority involved were told, and insisted they were right. Once of those telling them tgey were wrong was an ex-senior manager of their own, who not only told them the relevant legislation, but also told them exactly where in their own internal guidanxe manuals to find the relevant specs, and they ignored that, too.

    And there have been countless cases of parking fines thrown out, because road markings did not comply with regulations, even after the first "appeal" had been denied .... by the same authority that imposed the fine in the first place.

    Santa, councils, Highways Agency, etc, do not get to just make this stuff up and do what they like. There are rules. We have to follow them, or face penalties. What penalties do the agencies suffer when they flout the rules! Naff all.

    When, time after time, authorities act as if they are Gods, ignore their own rules AND persecute (and yes, I did spell that as I meant it) us if we don't, they lose the respect of even law-abiding individuals like me .... just as, by and large, the police have lost my respect. I never thought that would happen, but it has. Too many incidents, too many excesses, abuses, liars, cheats, thugs and bullies, too much artogance and disdain, from police officers to us, the people that employ them. So, I've gone from a supporter that trusted the police to a sceptic that, despite the many good and honest police officers, does NOT trust them, as a group.

    That 's why the arrogance, the disdain, of authorities like the Highways Agency, over issues like this is so wrong ... it's corrosive and damaging of public trust and support, especially when it happens again and again, with little or no sign (in any font or size) of contrition or regret over the FACT that they screwed up.

  10. #9
    HEXUS.social member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,562
    Thanks
    102
    Thanked
    320 times in 213 posts

    Re: Illegal motorway speed signs

    I have to sort of agree with both Santa and Saracen here. I've been able to keep to the speed limit on the M42, and the fact that their font has now been approved means there was no reason why you couldn't before. I'll admit there is an inherit problem with Arabic numerals, with 5 confused and with 6, and 6 confused with 8 (this is coming from fitting into a cramped space, upside down trying to read a serial number with a mirror on an aircraft! ). Therefore, I don't think drivers should really be allowed to overturn their previous convictions.

    But I also agree that there should be some sort of punishment for those incompetent/arrogant people at the Highways Agency (or whoever does the signs) who knew four years ago about the problem. I believe they should be held responsible for this problem for not sorting it out earlier, or just complying with the rules in the first place.

  11. #10
    ho! ho! ho! mofo santa claus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    2,898
    Thanks
    386
    Thanked
    446 times in 304 posts

    Re: Illegal motorway speed signs

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    The problem with that is.....
    Arguing the toss over the font/size is less important to me than that there are too many signs and too many rules in the first place.

    If we're going to allow these things to be imposed upon us, bellyaching about the detail serves further to sustain an army of officialdom.

    There could easily be less rules at less cost without discernible affect except to choke off an important revenue stream, which is why it perpetuates.

    The best rebuke for the 'authorities' is to render the fat of them superfluous .

  12. #11
    Larkspeed
    Guest

    Re: Illegal motorway speed signs

    The fact the sign is wrong does not change the law regarding speed.

    Anyone who tries to argue that they were speeding because the font of the sign was none compliant and therefor they believed the law was void should be fined double IMO

    Try driving here we don't have speed signs all over the place. We have them when there is an increase or decrease in the limit but nowhere else on the road.

    Why? because the people know the law and know how fast they are allowed to drive and don't need to a piece of tin with numbers on it to tell them.

    For the visitors to the country there is a sign as you cross the border informing you of the relevant speed limits on various types of road.

    Oh and police here are allowed to hide camera's as well none of this bright yellow camera you can see from half a mile away, while you are merrily racing down any road the rubbish bin on the side of the road could easily be a camera.

  13. #12
    Editable... jimbouk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Bristol
    Posts
    2,811
    Thanks
    244
    Thanked
    238 times in 191 posts
    • jimbouk's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asrock B450M-HDV R4.0
      • CPU:
      • AMD Ryzen 5 3600
      • Memory:
      • Corsair Vengeance LPX 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4 3200 MHz C16
      • Storage:
      • Sabrent Rocket Q 1TB NVMe PCIe M.2 2280
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Sapphire Pulse RX 580 8GB
      • PSU:
      • Seasonic Core Gold GC-650
      • Case:
      • Lian-Li PC-V1100 ATX
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10 Pro
      • Monitor(s):
      • AOC CU34G2/BK 34" Widescreen
      • Internet:
      • EE FTC

    Re: Illegal motorway speed signs

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkspeed View Post
    Why? because the people know the law and know how fast they are allowed to drive and don't need to a piece of tin with numbers on it to tell them.
    You missed the point that it was on a variable speed limit section of the motorway. Usually you'd drive at 70 in a car and be fine, if they change the speed limit it's only polite that they tell you...

  14. #13
    Admin (Ret'd)
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    18,481
    Thanks
    1,016
    Thanked
    3,208 times in 2,281 posts

    Re: Illegal motorway speed signs

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkspeed View Post
    The fact the sign is wrong does not change the law regarding speed.
    ....
    You're quite right, it doesn't. The law is very soecific, and very clear.

    ONLY a legitimate traffic sign, as defined by the relevant rules, imposes apeed limit. In the absence of such a sign, the default national limit applies.

    For a sign to be such a traffic sign, it must either comply with the spec in the Regulations, or have specific authorisation, again under the Regs, from the DoT.

    These signs neither complied, nor had such authorisation, so are not "traffic signs", and at that point, the law actually precludes prosecution.

    None of this changes the law. Under the law, these simply were not speed restrictions, so the national default applies.

    Neither councils, nor government departments, get to just make up laws as they see fit, and then fine people. They either have to enforce national statutes, or they have to apply such powers given to them by statute. That latter applies, for example, where statute empowers local councils to define a parking restriction, BUT when they do so, they MUST comply with the requirements of the empowering legislation. It is not at their discretion, or optional in any way, it is absolutely mandatory.

    If I put up a sign outside my house, even if it complues with speed sign definitions, it is unenforceable and has no legal effect. Nor does a sign put up by tbe Highways Agency unless it complues with the law.

    Voiding any such speeding convictions as these is not changing the law. It is actually following the law, which these fines did not.

  15. #14
    Larkspeed
    Guest

    Re: Illegal motorway speed signs

    Whether it was approved or not does not change the fact it was displaying the relevant and correct speed limit.

    To me it's just a selfish cop out to say well the sign has the wrong font so I will risk the safety of every other road user and break the law.

  16. #15
    Admin (Ret'd)
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    18,481
    Thanks
    1,016
    Thanked
    3,208 times in 2,281 posts

    Re: Illegal motorway speed signs

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkspeed View Post
    But they did tell you, people are just using a sign that was not previously approved as an excuse to break the law.

    Whether it was approved or not does not change the fact it was displaying the relevant and correct speed limit.
    But it wasn't, and unless the sign is correct, any speed limit it purports to apply is immaterial, because it was not a limit.

    So, national limit is 70mph.

    Variable sign says, for example, 40mph.

    Unless that sign is legal, and these signs weren't, the limit is 70, not 40.

    Then, cameras catch someone at 65. Are they speeding? No.

    But, catch someoneby camera at 85, and yes, they are speeding, and prosecutable.

    Either a speed restriction follows legal requirements or it is not a restriction.


    Quote Originally Posted by Larkspeed View Post
    ....

    Whether it was approved or not does not change the fact it was displaying the relevant and correct speed limit.
    That's the point - if it was not approved, it was NOT displaying the correct limit.

    It was these signs that, if legal, would have changed the limit. But as they weren't legal, they simply did not change the limit.

  17. #16
    Senior Member Smudger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    St Albans
    Posts
    3,834
    Thanks
    643
    Thanked
    608 times in 444 posts
    • Smudger's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Gbyte GA-970A-UD3P
      • CPU:
      • AMD FX8320 Black Edition
      • Memory:
      • 16GB 2x8G CML16GX3M2A1600C10
      • Storage:
      • 1x240Gb Corsair M500, 2TB TOSHIBA DT01ACA200
      • Graphics card(s):
      • XFX Radeon HD4890 1GB
      • PSU:
      • Corsair HX520
      • Case:
      • Akasa Zen
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10 Home
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell 24"
      • Internet:
      • Virgin 200Mbit

    Re: Illegal motorway speed signs

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbouk View Post
    You missed the point that it was on a variable speed limit section of the motorway. Usually you'd drive at 70 in a car and be fine, if they change the speed limit it's only polite that they tell you...
    I think this is possibly key to peoples' responses. Fine, we all know what the national speed limits are for a given stretch of road, but if they introduce a variable speed limit, and the sign telling you what the amended limit is is not correctly visible, you have a right to be peeved. I haven't seen the signs in question, so I don't know if they were legible or not...

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •