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Thread: Guns in America: we move onward into a new level of special thinking...

  1. #17
    Larkspeed
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    Re: Guns in America: we move onward into a new level of special thinking...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    Dingo that kind of parenting has created just as many violent children mate. I personally agree that capital punishmentDOES have a place. But it doesn't prevent the creation of killers
    Did you mean to say corporal punishment there?

    As in the cane in school and such

    Or Actually Capital punishment which is the death penalty.

    ---edit---

    This comment on the Story about South Dakota allowing guns sums up my original point exactly:

    "MrSteve
    9TH MARCH 2013 - 10:05
    Having been a teacher who went through a stress-related breakdown, I cannot begin to describe how astonishingly dumb this idea is. Had I been armed at the time, goodness only knows what could have happened.
    This also means that a disturbed teenager now knows precisely where to go to get a gun if there are none in their home."
    Last edited by Larkspeed; 14-03-2013 at 09:17 AM.

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    Re: Guns in America: we move onward into a new level of special thinking...

    I would worry about an oppressive school regime threatening the freedoms of the school pupils, so I would expect to see an amendment to the school constitution giving all pupils the right to bear arms to counter that threat.
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  3. #19
    xodianbarr
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    Re: Guns in America: we move onward into a new level of special thinking...

    Only one thing to say, and dont take it personal like, but - Get rid of yer frickin' guns!

  4. #20
    Senior Member ajones's Avatar
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    Re: Guns in America: we move onward into a new level of special thinking...

    Isn't it obvious? Arm the teachers to take out dangerous kids, then arm the kids to protect against the teachers. Simples.

    As an aside, the resulting Arms escalation is great news for the firearms industry.

    It always amazes me with the American craze for guns.... I remember when I lived there that they were amazed when I said I didn't want to "pop down to the range for lunch", and where horrified with the level of knife crime in the UK....

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    Re: Guns in America: we move onward into a new level of special thinking...

    Nah, Dingo's not that far of the mark, there is absolutely no control anymore no matter where you look. A sad society full of 'do gooders' who achieve very little.

  6. #22
    Larkspeed
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    Re: Guns in America: we move onward into a new level of special thinking...

    I am going to be brutally honest with my opinion in this post so if I offend anyone you have my apologies in advance.

    American gun supporters keep saying things like hunting and shooting are just part of our heritage and Americans want to hold on to that heritage.

    Sorry but that's a load of crap.

    I have been to 48 of the 50 US states (never been to Hawaii or Alaska) and I have met and spoken to thousands of Americans.

    The vast majority of Americans are nice respectable people that are willing to help their fellow man and go hunting and shooting because they can but would not care one little bit if gun laws got tightened up and they could not do it any more, they would just find some other way to pass their leisure time.

    Then you have the other group of Americans, the card carrying NRA member, narrow minded, the constitutions says this, it's my right, guns don't kill people, redneck idiots that put up all the stink about gun control in the US. These people are actually in the minority.

    Unfortunately it's that minority that keeps getting into enough positions of power to effectively block any form of common sense gun control from coming into force.

    The only state I can see that needs lax gun laws is Alaska simply because up there guns are not a way of life, they are a necessity of it.


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  8. #23
    xodianbarr
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    Re: Guns in America: we move onward into a new level of special thinking...

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkspeed View Post
    an armed guard in the school could have stopped him as well but they did not have one of those either.
    - Like having a wee in the wind, who knows what direction it will go? 'Could' is just a waste of time. Having the army stationed at the school 'could' have prevented it. Him not having the gun in the first place however 'would' have prevented it. More guns just adds more risk.

  9. #24
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    Re: Guns in America: we move onward into a new level of special thinking...

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkspeed View Post
    I am going to be brutally honest with my opinion in this post so if I offend anyone you have my apologies in advance.

    American gun supporters keep saying things like hunting and shooting are just part of our heritage and Americans want to hold on to that heritage.

    Sorry but that's a load of crap.

    I have been to 48 of the 50 US states (never been to Hawaii or Alaska) and I have met and spoken to thousands of Americans.

    The vast majority of Americans are nice respectable people that are willing to help their fellow man and go hunting and shooting because they can but would not care one little bit if gun laws got tightened up and they could not do it any more, they would just find some other way to pass their leisure time.

    Then you have the other group of Americans, the card carrying NRA member, narrow minded, the constitutions says this, it's my right, guns don't kill people, redneck idiots that put up all the stink about gun control in the US. These people are actually in the minority.

    Unfortunately it's that minority that keeps getting into enough positions of power to effectively block any form of common sense gun control from coming into force.

    The only state I can see that needs lax gun laws is Alaska simply because up there guns are not a way of life, they are a necessity of it.
    I'm not offended by your view. You're entitled to it.

    But, as expressed above, I think it's simplistic. For a start, not all Americans that regard the right to own, and even subject to permit, carry are either NRA members, or rednecks. My brother, for instance, would be one. He does, however, periodically get asked if he's "carrying" .... including just about whenever when he produces his FBI credentials at an airport security check. Another guy I know is a Florida cop, and has never had to fire his weapon in the course of duty, other than at the range, and that 's in 30 years of service.

    Of course there are rednecks, and sadly, there's the occasional sad or ill individual doing something shocking and horrible. But a very large number, and I'd suggest it's the vast majority, are normal, average, working people. A lot are office workers, and guns are a combination of a hobby and a personal and/or home security method.

    Where this argument starts to grt more complex, though, is when we move away from handguns for home protection, or hunting rifles, to full automatic weapons, assault rifles, high capacity magazines, and so on.

    Personally, I can see a valid argument for legal handguns, hunting rifles, etc, byt far, FAR less rational argument for assault weapons, uzis or personal tripod-mounted heavy machine guns. There is an argument for such restrictions, but for overall gun control, the legal hurdles that have to be overcome to void a constitutionally protected right are huge, and the chances of it happening, short of a radical change in both public and political attitudes is, in pragmatic terms, effectively zero. The system was quite deliberately, and for very good reason, set up to make it seriously hard for any executive to remove constitutionally protected rights. Obama, for all his rhetoric, is basically powerless in this. He cannot do a thing, and even Congress has to effectively get a large majority in both houses, or the Supreme Court will simply strike it down. It's all in the implications of the practical separation of powers in the "checks and balances".

  10. #25
    xodianbarr
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    Re: Guns in America: we move onward into a new level of special thinking...

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Personally, I can see a valid argument for legal handguns, hunting rifles, etc,
    And that is?

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    Re: Guns in America: we move onward into a new level of special thinking...

    Quote Originally Posted by xodianbarr View Post
    And that is?
    Ever lived somewhere where, when you wander into your backyard, you might come face to face with a black bear? Or found one trying to get into your home? Or where a large part of the food that ends up on your table comes from hunting, because the nearest major supermarket is 60 miles away?

    As for handguns, protection, for a start. You have to remember that the US is a very large country and lifestyles are incredibly diverse, from packed areas like major cities to country areas where policing may consist of a handful of officers covering dozens of square miles, and the nearest station is 30 miles away .... or more.

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    Re: Guns in America: we move onward into a new level of special thinking...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    I personally agree that capital punishmentDOES have a place. But it doesn't prevent the creation of killers
    It does seriously reduce the re-offending rate, though. To, well, none.

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  14. #28
    Larkspeed
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    Re: Guns in America: we move onward into a new level of special thinking...

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Ever lived somewhere where, when you wander into your backyard, you might come face to face with a black bear? Or found one trying to get into your home? Or where a large part of the food that ends up on your table comes from hunting, because the nearest major supermarket is 60 miles away?

    As for handguns, protection, for a start. You have to remember that the US is a very large country and lifestyles are incredibly diverse, from packed areas like major cities to country areas where policing may consist of a handful of officers covering dozens of square miles, and the nearest station is 30 miles away .... or more.
    Having lived in wilderness parts of Canada I can agree with the need for Hunting rifles to a certain degree. I am not against shooting a bear or deer for survival or food as a necessity, I am however very much opposed to Hunting for sport.

    Handguns for home protection I can agree with as well, but lets face it you don't need a Magnum 500 to defend your home so some restriction on size of weapon for home protection needs to be in place.

    Now assault rifles, machine guns and the like have no place with the general public at all and should be restricted solely for military or civil use and should not be allowed to be in the hands of private citizens.

  15. #29
    Funking Prink! Raz316's Avatar
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    Re: Guns in America: we move onward into a new level of special thinking...

    I know this is a pretty simplistic / ill informed view on the matter, but I can't help but be reminded of this from futurama.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vouI55GAx8

  16. #30
    xodianbarr
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    Re: Guns in America: we move onward into a new level of special thinking...

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Ever lived somewhere where, when you wander into your backyard, you might come face to face with a black bear? Or found one trying to get into your home? Or where a large part of the food that ends up on your table comes from hunting, because the nearest major supermarket is 60 miles away?

    As for handguns, protection, for a start. You have to remember that the US is a very large country and lifestyles are incredibly diverse, from packed areas like major cities to country areas where policing may consist of a handful of officers covering dozens of square miles, and the nearest station is 30 miles away .... or more.
    Valid points - but..

    This doesn't justify the gun laws allowing for an entire country to own them. I can understand the authorities having weapons, and thought i dont agree with hunters owning guns, i appreciate your viewpoint, but i don't see how any old tom, dick, or harry should be allowed them same rights. Its - its.. 'unconstitutional'!

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    Re: Guns in America: we move onward into a new level of special thinking...

    Interesting stats, courtesy of Wiki....

    Guns per capita;
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_...ita_by_country

    Gun deaths per 100,000 citizens;
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate

    Note the homicide rate in USA compared with other developed countries with high gun ownership (Switzerland, Finland for example).

    It's not purely gun ownership that's the problem - there are other factors causing such a huge number of gun killings. A cultural problem, it would seem.

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  19. #32
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    Re: Guns in America: we move onward into a new level of special thinking...

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkspeed View Post
    Having lived in wilderness parts of Canada I can agree with the need for Hunting rifles to a certain degree. I am not against shooting a bear or deer for survival or food as a necessity, I am however very much opposed to Hunting for sport.

    .....
    Agreed, on all if that. But, rifle-shooting as a sport? On a range, with targets?

    And while I had Canada partly in mind, the same applies to some of the northern states in the US, which is largely what I was referring to. But there's a fair bit of dangerous wildlife in some other parts of the US too, including those parts of the west, or mid-west, that can still be pretty wild,

    Personally, I don't agree with the killing of anything for sport, and includes both foxes and fish, as well as hunting with rifles for "sport".

    Though, thinking about it, I can think of one exception to live hunting .... I'd cheerfully declare open season on human hunters going after elephant, tiger, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkspeed View Post
    ....

    Handguns for home protection I can agree with as well, but lets face it you don't need a Magnum 500 to defend your home so some restriction on size of weapon for home protection needs to be in place.

    ....
    Perhaps not, but if you have a handgun for home protection, does it really make much difference if it's a 38 or 357 magnum? Or, for that matter, what about a 6-round 357 revolver or a 15-round mag in a Glock 9mm?

    Where, if anywhere, should the line be drawn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkspeed View Post
    ....

    Now assault rifles, machine guns and the like have no place with the general public at all and should be restricted solely for military or civil use and should not be allowed to be in the hands of private citizens.
    I don't know that I can disagree. I've tried, for argument's sake, to think of a rational justification for such weapons and, frankly, can't. Or not, at least, beyond the "fun" factor of blasting away with one, and that's hardly justification for such lethal items.

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