Should parents be held legally responsible for not vaccinating their children?

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Originally Posted by fuddam

billythewiz: excellent post.

What a lot of people on this thread completely fail to acknowledge is HOW the vaccines are administered. I'm in my mid 40's. I had all the vacccines I was prescribed as a child, and didn't suffer any negative consequences.

HOWEVER, now the trend is for multiple vaccines in a single dose. It's given in the name of practicality, but no consideration is given to the massive impact of so many different beasties in one go. That is *completely* unnatural. The body is not built to be fighting so many wars on so many fronts.

Quite aside from the Thimerosal issue, which was the big plus in favour of single vaccines in the MMR uproar (the MMR jab had Thimerosal, the single vaccines did not, and many of the government ministers in favour of the multi-jab had financial interests in the company/ies advocating their use), this can lead to an overactive immune system. This then leads directly to the mass of immune-related problems that have risen like a rocket in recent years, particularly eczema, asthma and dietary allergies.

It's gotten so crazy that 10 years ago I was arguing with doctors who said eczema was now considered 'normal', as over 25% of children suffered from it. In what universe is this 'normal' (being based on very recent occurrences), and something that I probably saw only one or two children ever suffer from in my entire childhood??? It may be 'the norm' but that does not make it 'normal'.

If you want to give all the vaccines to your kids, fine. But do it knowing that the number of multi-jabs in such close sequence is not without the possibility of real complications.

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Your a creationist.

Vaccines are un-natural by your religious beliefs.

We don't expect people who refuse to believe in mathematical principles to participate in debates on the matter. Someone who has openly shunned the theory behind evolution should not ever comment on something which is entirely a result of that theory.

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Originally Posted by HalloweenJack

someone told me that the vaccine girls are being pumped full of nowadays (cervical caner one) , is pretty much useless by the time they are 18.....

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Assuming your talking about HPV.

You have to be careful with that, the most at risk group tend to be the younger types (high sex drive, low understanding of 'relationships'), in fact recently it has been shown that the vaccine also helps protect those who are engaging in anal sex. It really is a good idea, it has very low risks attached but will save many girls from infertility!

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Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH

These decisions should be down to doctors,who can make an informed decision based on available evidence
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If the parents have relevant concerns based on proper research,they should be forwarded to the doctors,who can take this into consideration,or request a second opinion,etc.

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My son had a severe reaction to his DTP vaccination. He's now severely disabled. Are those two things related ? I don't know, there's never been any investigation of any kind. It could have been TheAnimus's pirates for all anyone knows.
So when it came to my second child, my wife (a Biochemist who worked for Merck - the MMR manufacturer) asked if it would be better to not use the 3in1 DTP that my son had, but to instead wait for the new 5in1 that didn't contain mercury or the old pertussis vaccine (that had a happy history of causing brain damage). The GP didn't know what to say.

Similarly, at age five, she asked "if it would be possible to use the Tetanus booster that doesn't contain pertussis ?"
She got a definitive answer to that one, "Oh no, that's just for teenagers !".
Wife - "It says on the data sheet that it's licensed from the age of 6."
GP - "Wot ? Oh, err, does it .... ?"
Wife - "Given the family history of severe reaction to the DTP, that was probably to the pertussis component, would it be safer to delay the Tetanus booster, (bad), and avoid the pertussis all together, or would it be better to take the risk with the pertussis in order to get the benefit of the Tetanus booster now ?"
At least our GP was honest enough to say she didn't know. She couldn't know, there haven't been any trials to answer questions like this.

So where do compulsory vaccines fit with my family ?

Given the ridiculous witch hunt of Wakefield et al.,
given that GSK asked for and was given indemnity from prosecution, before it was willing to supply the first version of MMR,
given that the first version of MMR was withdrawn for causing too many cases of meningitis,
given that both GSK and the British government knew the risk of meningitis before the original MMR was introduced,
given that the General Medical Council has now been reprimanded for the way it handled the case of Wakefield et al.,
given that we continue to have vaccines forced upon us, only for them to be subsequently withdrawn for being unsafe (recent swine flu),

and given that doctors and science researchers are frightened to say anything negative about any vaccine, in case they lose their entire career ....

I now trust drug company research on vaccines as much as I trust oil company research on climate change.

Unfortunately fear (and it's fear of a very real danger) extends to academic researchers. They don't have to work for Big Pharma. If a University researcher criticises a vaccine they will still lose their job as their grants dry up, journals refuse to publish their work, colleagues stop collaborating with them, etc.

The only research that is still able to able to criticise vaccines is epidemiological studies done in Maths departments. Unfortunately most of these show that autism is inversely proportional to pirate attacks and vaccine usage is proportional to global warming.

Today there is no research being done into the causes is autism. There is a lot being done to show that vaccines are perfectly safe.

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Originally Posted by Mrs Hex

Measles, when it doesn't kill, leaves its victims blind, deaf and worse.

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That is a ridiculous statement. Complications from measles are rare. In most cases the "victim" makes a full recovery and merely suffers life long immunity to the disease. If you really believe what you wrote I'm not surprised you are terrified. It's also a sad indictment of the paranoia that results from all the big pharma scaremongering.

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Originally Posted by Mrs Hex

My son is ... part of a trial study to include Hepatitis B in routine childhood vaccination programs.

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I think it's very noble of you to be doing medical experiments on your kids. Some links for you ...
federal court admits hepatitis b vaccine caused fatal auto immune disorder/ - I'm sure it's rare, but I wondered if the researchers told you about this risk ?
us-government-concedes-hep-b-vaccine-causes-systemic-lupus-erythematosus.aspx - or this. But I'm sure your kid will be fine.
I don't want to know why you think children need vaccine protection from a sexually transmitted disease

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Originally Posted by Mrs Hex

I go back to work in a fortnight and Nathan starts at nursery and I am terrified that he may contract Measles, Mumps or Rubella because the MMR isn't administered until 13 months.

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If he contracts Rubella you probably wont even notice. Many "victims" are symptom free and merely suffer life long immunity.
If he contracts Mumps he will make a full recovery and have life long immunity to a disease that as an adult is not only very serious but to which he will have no immunity (the Mumps immunity from the MMR doesn't last very long).
If he contracts Measles he will be ill for a week or so and then make a full recovery and have life long immunity. The biggest side effect will be that you will have to take some time off work.

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Originally Posted by csgohan4

.. don't go to the same school as my unvaccinated children who are not due it yet

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The naivety of that statement makes me think you don't in fact have kids and are just trolling. Which particular "it" is it that your kids are too young to have before going to school (MMR) ?
You can only be talking about private nursery, in which case I suggest you find one which shares your views and turns away customers who haven't followed a vaccine schedule that you approve of. Good luck with that.

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Originally Posted by TheAnimus

Your a creationist.

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He is. I'm not. Your rebuttal is an ad hominem attack and therefore valueless.

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Originally Posted by TheAnimus

the most at risk group tend to be the younger types (high sex drive, low understanding of 'relationships'), in fact recently it has been shown that the vaccine also helps protect those who are engaging in anal sex. It really is a good idea, it has very low risks attached but will save many girls from infertility!

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Some of that will probably turn out to be true, but HPV is a new vaccine and as such absolutely nothing can be said about its long term safety or effectiveness.

In the US the arguments are ridiculous. The religious right don't want it given at all because it removes a danger of (and therefore encourages) promiscuity and premarital sex. The other side, backed by the drug companies, want it given at birth.

Given that many vaccines wear off after time I think the UK has a much more sensible approached of offering it (not mandating it) to early teenage girls. In the USA they are talking about mandating it for boys as well.

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Originally Posted by billythewiz

He is. I'm not. Your rebuttal is an ad hominem attack and therefore valueless.

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Huh? My comment was a polite mention that someone who believes the sky is purple shouldn't focus on a cloud photography debate.

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Originally Posted by billythewiz

Some of that will probably turn out to be true, but HPV is a new vaccine and as such absolutely nothing can be said about its long term safety or effectiveness.

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Well this is the thing, its a new vaccine, but has been tested by many nations, to their standards.

Sure, it might make people 100 years later eyes turn blue, that can not ever be ruled out. Just in the same way you can't prove there isn't a flying spaghetti monster.

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Originally Posted by billythewiz

Given that many vaccines wear off after time I think the UK has a much more sensible approached of offering it (not mandating it) to early teenage girls. In the USA they are talking about mandating it for boys as well.

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How does wearing off over time effect weather it should be mandated!

In my personal experience of sex, it has always been the times I have not been expecting sex, that I've un-surprisingly had sex without physical barrier contraception. If I was expecting it, I'd have come prepared (hah!), the point is that parents who feel that little perfect sproggling would never ever have sex, ever. Are the exact sort who should have the vaccine.

I'll be honest, the reply I originally wrote regarding the news that your child suffered a reaction I had to redact. All I can say is please think of the perspective of the person who has that 1 in 100,000,000 reaction for things.

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Originally Posted by fuddam

Quite aside from the Thimerosal issue, which was the big plus in favour of single vaccines in the MMR uproar (the MMR jab had Thimerosal, the single vaccines did not

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I don\'t know about the original MMR, the one that was withdraw for causing too many cases of meningitis, but the current formulation "MMR-II", doesn\'t have Thimerosal.

4 of the 7 seasonal flu vaccines provided by the NHS still do, as did the 2009 swine flu vaccine.

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Originally Posted by fuddam

This then leads directly to the mass of immune-related problems that have risen like a rocket in recent years, particularly eczema, asthma and dietary allergies.

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This is another one of those pirates vs global warming things. The drug companies want you to believe that its a coincidence. They fund lots of research that has the pre-arranged conclusion that vaccines are safe (if the research shows otherwise they don't publish it).

Meanwhile there is no research looking for why all these conditions are on the increase.

There's an interesting article here. I can't vouch for it's validity, much of the antivax stuff is as flawed by bias as all the vaccine manufacturer funded "research". But it's interesting in that it touches on virtually all the issues raised in the last few posts, including Dr. Paul "For Profit" Offit.

"Age of Autism reported that Offit earned at least $29 million, and perhaps as much as $55 million from being a co-inventor of a rotavirus vaccine" - I think that might constitute a conflict of interest.

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Originally Posted by TheAnimus

How does wearing off over time effect weather it should be mandated!

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It doesn't, it should never be mandated. Wearing off affects when it should be recommended. If you want to inject your newborn son at the same time that you are slicing off part of his penis, that's fine. If your daughter wants to delay until a few days before her wedding night, that's her choice.

The HPV vaccine is an interesting one. Do you know how many trials have shown that is saves lives ? None. None whatsoever. The trials show an affect on pre-cancerous cells which will probably (hopefully, with a bit of luck) reduce the incidence of cancer. The vaccine protects against 4 strains of HPV. There are over 100 strains, so it only offers limited protection.

I'm not saying it's not beneficial, but let's not pretend that it's some wonder cure that can ever eradication cervical cancer. It cannot.

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Originally Posted by TheAnimus

All I can say is please think of the perspective of the person who has that 1 in 100,000,000 reaction for things.

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Are you asking me to take the perspective of the disease damaged or the vaccine damaged ? I don't know how many generations of my ancestors have been fighting off measles. Many thousand I expect. Aluminium has virutally no way of entering the human body. The gut doesn't absorb it and it is harmlessly excreted, which is a good thing because it is extremely neurotoxic. And yet now (for just one generation) we inject it into the blood stream of babies and autism in boys is now 1 in 30 that would be 3,000,000 in 100,000,000, not just one.

Perhaps they are unrelated, but as far as I'm concerned, until the causes of autism are understood, nothing (not even vaccines) can be ruled out.
Unfortunately there is no research being done to fine the causes of autism.

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Originally Posted by HalloweenJack

someone told me that (HPV) , is pretty much useless by the time they are 18.....

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Unfortunately, it's very hard to get good information about vaccines. The NHS site (for example) only contains marketing information made to look "scientific". The actual scientific publications are very hard to interpret and individually contain very little information. And the antivaxer stuff is often just as bad as the big pharma marketing.

What you were told is a good example of the later.
HPV vaccine is too new to know how long the protection lasts. HPV is sexually transmitted and so it's usually give at 12ish. In the US there is pressure to give it at birth.

There are two vaccines available, one offers protection from more strains of HPV than the other. We in the UK are using the cheaper version, produced by GSK, that offers lesser protection. I don't know if they have indemnity from prosecution for this vaccine.

You can read all about it here, if you can be bothered.

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Originally Posted by billythewiz

That is a ridiculous statement. Complications from measles are rare. In most cases the "victim" makes a full recovery and merely suffers life long immunity to the disease. If you really believe what you wrote I'm not surprised you are terrified. It's also a sad indictment of the paranoia that results from all the big pharma scaremongering.

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http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html

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Originally Posted by TheAnimus

Your a creationist.

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You're not Your

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Originally Posted by peterb

http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html

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http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Measles...lications.aspx

When I was a kid, measles were never a major issue. Yes, some people develop problems, while the vast majority don't. Pretty much like vaccines - lol.

Pro-choice.

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Originally Posted by TheAnimus

Assuming your talking about HPV.

You have to be careful with that, the most at risk group tend to be the younger types (high sex drive, low understanding of 'relationships'), in fact recently it has been shown that the vaccine also helps protect those who are engaging in anal sex. It really is a good idea, it has very low risks attached but will save many girls from infertility!

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I must remind you that the NHS is using the `cheapest` vaccine which is only `effective` against 2 strains (and effective is subjective).


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23016780

published work questioning the effectiveness of Gardrasil.


edit:


http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/...006-4222B3.pdf

FDA report showing:

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if you have been exposed to HPV 16 or 18 prior to injection and take the vaccine, you increase your risk of precancerous lesions, or worse, by 44.6%

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ergo Gardrasil *can* increase your risk to cancer....

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Originally Posted by billythewiz

The HPV vaccine is an interesting one. Do you know how many trials have shown that is saves lives ? None. None whatsoever. The trials show an affect on pre-cancerous cells which will probably (hopefully, with a bit of luck) reduce the incidence of cancer. The vaccine protects against 4 strains of HPV. There are over 100 strains, so it only offers limited protection.

I'm not saying it's not beneficial, but let's not pretend that it's some wonder cure that can ever eradication cervical cancer. It cannot.

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HPV is very different vs an non STI infectious disease.

Going back to game theory, it isn't half as much a problem in a prisoners dilemma. Not just because you have to have a very rare kind of contact to pass it on, but also because it only affects half the population negatively.

Which is where the main point comes from, pretend you've got vaccine X, this kills 0.001% of those who are given it. We can identify 80% of the 'at risk' group who will die from it, so we don't give it to them, that means 0.00002% of people who are given the vaccination will die.

Now in this case even if the disease only kills 0.001% of people, the same as the vaccination, by having the entire healthy hurd immunised, we have a net total of fewer deaths.

It is in everyone's interest to have them.

However each disease has different metrics, different costs, but short of a phd in statistics and a MD, few will understand it. As we are seeing in wales now a massive upswing in infections, this is entirely due to ignorance. As such I think it makes sense that people can be heavily pressured in to protecting their children. As it stands with English law there are many situations where a parent doesn't have the choice over their child, there is lots of precedence. Courts have overruled stupid/religious parents on medical matters before, children shouldn't suffer because of their parents.

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Originally Posted by billythewiz

Are you asking me to take the perspective of the disease damaged or the vaccine damaged ?

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Well in the case of MMR there hasn't been any evidence of the latter.

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Originally Posted by billythewiz

I don't know how many generations of my ancestors have been fighting off measles. Many thousand I expect. Aluminium has virutally no way of entering the human body. The gut doesn't absorb it and it is harmlessly excreted, which is a good thing because it is extremely neurotoxic. And yet now (for just one generation) we inject it into the blood stream of babies and autism in boys is now 1 in 30 that would be 3,000,000 in 100,000,000, not just one.

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Pirates and global warming. Also kids regularly consume it, they put everything in their mouths. I would suggest if your wanting to draw correlations between such things, use examples which have already shown a linkage, such as mercury or lead.

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Originally Posted by billythewiz

Perhaps they are unrelated, but as far as I'm concerned, until the causes of autism are understood, nothing (not even vaccines) can be ruled out.
Unfortunately there is no research being done to fine the causes of autism.

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There are lots of points of research for this, I took part in some at uni as part of my neuroscience studies, one major problem is the moving target definition of autism, as I mentioned before even something that has been a staple of diagnosis such as Aspergers is been redefined.

The attitude of, if it can't be ruled out, then we shouldn't do it, isn't correct at all. It has been looked at a little bit and no evidence found. Remember the only evidence ever put forward wasn't just wrong, it was immoral (ethics violation) and fraudulently wrong. By a man who stood to profit from it. Those are my polite words about him too, if we had criminal prosecution for such things, he should have a life sentence.

You can't stop something good, just because there is a baseless correlation, with zero evidence of causality.

Pirates and Global Warming.