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Thread: Battery powered train

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    Battery powered train

    No, not a model, but a full sized passenger train.

    The thing behind it is that electric trains are quieter and more efficient than their diesel/diesel-electric counterparts, but need a large infrastructure to support them in the form of overhead wires.

    The plan, outlined here

    http://www.networkrail.co.uk/news/20...powered-train/

    is to test a battery powered train to run on routes that are not yet electrified, or only partly electrified. They could replace diesel trains on partly electrified routes by charging the batteries on electrified sections. On non-electrified routes, they would have to be charged at stops or at the depot.

    There are more details here:

    http://www.theengineer.co.uk/rail-an...016959.article

    http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...wered-emu.html

    http://www.railtechnologymagazine.co...o-be-developed
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    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Re: Battery powered train

    Interesting they are going for chemical batteries, rather than flywheel storage.
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    Gav
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    Re: Battery powered train

    I’d be sceptical about an electric train being more efficient than a diesel one. Sure the actual train might be more efficient but it needs to get its electricity from power stations which are around 45% efficient. Then there’s the efficiency of the electricity transmission, the charging efficiency of the trains battery (~85%) and finally the efficiency of the train’s electric engine (~65%). This would place the efficiency of an electric train at just under 25%. A diesel engine has an efficiency of 25% - 40% and I’d guess a large engine like a train’s would be at the upper end of that. This is a very rough estimate I know but even if I’m off a bit in my estimations and an electric train is more efficient there can’t be much in it. Not enough to justify setting up the infrastructure for electric trains.
    People see electric transport as being green because the actual vehicle doesn’t produce fumes. The truth is that they still require burning fuels somewhere, be it in the vehicle or at a power station. In terms of efficiency it’s better to have your energy source close to where it’s being used.

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    Re: Battery powered train

    Interesting. Is there a government pot somewhere for who can be greenest? I see this as a stepping stone towards solar panels on trains and stations (maybe windmills or hell, hook some exercise bikes up to dynamos ). Thinking about what Animus said, you can slap some form of regenerative braking in there as well.

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    Gav
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    Re: Battery powered train

    An interesting thing you can do with trains is to build the stations at a higher level than the rest of the track. London Underground's Victoria line does this. It means that the train naturally slows down as it approaches the station and naturally speeds up again as it leaves

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    Senior Member watercooled's Avatar
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    Re: Battery powered train

    Flywheel storage would probably be far too large/heavy to carry a train along anything more than a short gap in OLE.

    Larger stationary engines (i.e. power plants) tend to burn fuels more cleanly than locomotive diesel engines for starters, then where the infrastructure is there, electric trains are cheaper to run/maintain, are lighter, faster accelerating, quieter, etc.

    As for efficiency, it's not as simple as pure efficiency of the engines. Especially for larger trains, the sheer size and weight of the drive train for pure diesels makes them impractical/inefficient, which is why many larger diesel trains like the Super Voyager are actually diesel-electric - they have a diesel engine running at a tuned torque band generating power, which is sent to electric traction motors.

    AFAIK electric trains are actually considerably more efficient vs diesel trains, everything considered.

    As for regenerative breaking, although I've seen companies advertising it as a positive, I doubt intermittent bursts of a few MW to the grid are very useful as power stations wouldn't have time to adjust that quickly etc - it's more like a convenient way of dumping a load of power to slow quickly rather than needing bigger brakes/resistor banks.

    Higher station elevation might be useful for slowing etc, but not for efficiency - there's no free lunch.

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    Re: Battery powered train

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    Flywheel storage would probably be far too large/heavy to carry a train along anything more than a short gap in OLE.

    Larger stationary engines (i.e. power plants) tend to burn fuels more cleanly than locomotive diesel engines for starters, then where the infrastructure is there, electric trains are cheaper to run/maintain, are lighter, faster accelerating, quieter, etc.

    As for efficiency, it's not as simple as pure efficiency of the engines. Especially for larger trains, the sheer size and weight of the drive train for pure diesels makes them impractical/inefficient, which is why many larger diesel trains like the Super Voyager are actually diesel-electric - they have a diesel engine running at a tuned torque band generating power, which is sent to electric traction motors.

    AFAIK electric trains are actually considerably more efficient vs diesel trains, everything considered.

    As for regenerative breaking, although I've seen companies advertising it as a positive, I doubt intermittent bursts of a few MW to the grid are very useful as power stations wouldn't have time to adjust that quickly etc - it's more like a convenient way of dumping a load of power to slow quickly rather than needing bigger brakes/resistor banks.

    Higher station elevation might be useful for slowing etc, but not for efficiency - there's no free lunch.
    Station elevation is good for efficiency. The train needs to stop at the station, normally this means braking ie dissipating the train's kinetic energy into heat in the brake pads. This heat is then just given off to the environment. Then the train needs to accelerate away from the station using up fuel. With higher stations the train doesn't need to brake as much to come to a stop. As it accelerates it uses less fuel since it's accelerating downhill. It is a very efficient form of regenerative braking.

    It's really obvious that this is good for efficiency. The victoria line apparently saves 5% fuel through its hump back stations. As for the other stuff you said we'd really need to compare a lot of numbers

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    Re: Battery powered train

    Yeah now I think of it as regenerative breaking it makes sense, brain fart alert.

    As for other efficiency numbers, as I said I know friends in the industry who've basically said what I posted. Plenty of companies claim they're substantially cheaper to run/maintain; I can't actually think of any routes off the top of my head where diesel trains are run where the lines are powered. The efficiency side is more debatable, but like I said AFAIK they are really 'cleaner' to run. Besides pure thermal efficiency, diesel locomotive engines aren't the cleanest burning engines in the world. Then electric trains tend to be lighter, don't waste a load of fuel having to keep engines idling etc.

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    Re: Battery powered train

    The maintenance load for an electric powertrain will be lower than that for a diesel/diesel electric powertrain - no oil changes or oil/fuel/air filters to replace at a basic level. And with direct drive systems, no gearbox or torque converters either.
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    Re: Battery powered train

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    Flywheel storage would probably be far too large/heavy to carry a train along anything more than a short gap in OLE.
    How effective would chemical battery be?

    I mean:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage

    It is really rather good, the main benefit is not needing to replace them every few years after a few thousand charge cycles. The problem is I guess the density from wiki for flywheels: "and values greater than 400 Wh/kg", which is about double what you can get from lipol. When you look at the efficiency after 5 years, the flywheel storage becomes rather attractive.
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    Re: Battery powered train

    Something just doesn't "feel" right about that, but I'll look further into it out of interest. But I guess with immensely high spin speeds it starts to make sense, but then I wonder about cost and practicality? Also, I wonder if gyroscopic effects could affect their use on a mobile platform?
    Last edited by watercooled; 13-10-2013 at 12:23 AM.

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    Re: Battery powered train

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    How effective would chemical battery be?

    I mean:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage

    It is really rather good, the main benefit is not needing to replace them every few years after a few thousand charge cycles. The problem is I guess the density from wiki for flywheels: "and values greater than 400 Wh/kg", which is about double what you can get from lipol. When you look at the efficiency after 5 years, the flywheel storage becomes rather attractive.
    Sadly the wiki page reads like current line engineering tests, which means we're still 10 years off commercial implimentation and 30 years before it becomes "cheap". That said, wouldn't surprise me to see something in a Tesla car or it's ilk within 5.

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    Re: Battery powered train

    Quote Originally Posted by AETAaAS View Post
    Interesting. Is there a government pot somewhere for who can be greenest? ....
    Well, there's a taxpayer and citizen(*)-funded pot for it, yes. Every time anyone pays an energy bill, they pay a "levy", imposed by government and while collected by energy companies (who then get the blame for high bills) and paid to government for "green" projects, in much the same way that VAT is collected by companies who get to do all the admin for government, but get no benefit from VAT.

    And, of course, the "green levy" is a highly regressive way of taxing, because it hits directly on one of the essentials for life (heat) and which even the very poor are unavable to avoid by their actions .... short of freezing. Of course, the motivation is good .... encourage behavioural changing (encourage energy efficiency and reduced consumption) through price. But next time the hypocritical Mr Miliband goes on about his concern for "eat or heat", remember the green levy, and who was the last Labour energy secretary. Not that the coalition are any better, with the current Tory energy Minister, or his LibDem predecessor.


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    Re: Battery powered train

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    It is really rather good, the main benefit is not needing to replace them every few years after a few thousand charge cycles. The problem is I guess the density from wiki for flywheels: "and values greater than 400 Wh/kg", which is about double what you can get from lipol. When you look at the efficiency after 5 years, the flywheel storage becomes rather attractive.
    Presumably if you get the ever so British - leaves-on-the-line, hour long delay - in the middle of nowhere situation, flywheels can quickly become a bit of an issue? They can't keep rotating for ever.

    Eventually ultracapacitors will probably sort the issue, but we're a long way off.

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    Re: Battery powered train

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucio View Post
    Sadly the wiki page reads like current line engineering tests, which means we're still 10 years off commercial implimentation and 30 years before it becomes "cheap". That said, wouldn't surprise me to see something in a Tesla car or it's ilk within 5.
    Very true, but making sufficient battery, that can withstand the temperature swings whilst having very high load, after a few charge cycles still be efficient and not catch fire... It is either going to be woefully little power, explody, or some top notch boeing didn't get it right grade engineering.
    Quote Originally Posted by wasabi View Post
    Presumably if you get the ever so British - leaves-on-the-line, hour long delay - in the middle of nowhere situation, flywheels can quickly become a bit of an issue? They can't keep rotating for ever.
    Chemical batteries also dissipate energy. As that wikipedia page mentions modern flywheels which use magnetic or mostly vacuum with air bearings can have up to 97% mechanical efficiency. That would mean leaving the train someplace overnight wouldn't be an issue.

    Flywheels are really interesting options, their decay is a problem, but compared to the longevity of efficiency, the fact they charge rather swiftly, they are often a good option.

    For industrial processes that require a burst of energy, far more than you could practically store in a capacitor, flywheels are frequently used, even before electricity! Mix-in some modern engineering, much lower friction bearings, manufacture that is comparatively cheap with higher precision... They are a good option, I'd be interested to know why they are not been used, it could be something as simple as they could de-rail the train in certain circumstances, or the risk of that energy if the train does derail.
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    Re: Battery powered train

    Flywheels were used in the 70 class locomotives in the 1940s. The locomotive was shorter than some and there was a risk that it could lose power on third rail systems in between rail gaps. While that might not stop the locomotive, the changes in torque as power was lost and reapplied put a strain on the couplings, so the track power was fed to a motor-generator set with a large flywheel on the coupling. The output from the motor generator then fed the traction motors.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...%28electric%29

    In effect the flywheel acted as a smoothing device to reduce the effect of the fluctuations (and mathematically, a flywheel is the same as an inductor)

    I doubt that the energy density of flywheel systems can match those of batteries.
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