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Thread: That whole occupy thing.

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    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    That whole occupy thing.

    So, lets look back on it. What have they achieved? Nothing, ok we knew that, they didn't really complain about anything, they were mostly people who struck me as being a bit thick (we're angry, solution? oh thats someone elses problem), trashing open areas in the city.

    But what I'm really asking is why have people not really demanded any change on important issues. We've got growing (in London) wage / housing costs, to a level we've not seen in times that have good data available for.

    We have a growing tax bill for people who often own more assets than those funding it. I'm talking about pensions. People who are 22 trying to save money are paying for people who've retired at 65 on final salary pensions and own a valuable property they under occupy. This looks impossible for a young person today.

    As the economy starts to recover, it is standard to see the inequality gap actually grow. Myself I think it will be worse this time due to the effect of the housing market. (Not helped by unrestricted migration (internal and external)).

    But yet, those stupid pissheads who just wanted to have a drug-in/love-in orgey in central London whilst simultaneously avoiding feeding the homeless, achieved nothing.

    They still owe me for two inner tubes, they kept breaking bottles on city road, the little entitled pricks apparently unable to use a broom.

    Anyway, as things get worse for the youngest adults in London, do you think we will see a repeat? Or did the self entitled, solution less, guardian reading retards, destroy those peoples faith in protest?
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    Re: That whole occupy thing.

    Who'd have thought we'd see the day when I'd agree with you absolutely? Occupy was a complete waste of time, a narcissistic cry for help with no actual ideas whatsoever. Now 'Help To Buy' is using my own tax revenue to actively price me out of owning a house, and what have these young radicals got to say about it? Precisely sod all.

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    Re: That whole occupy thing.

    did you see the newsroom episodes that commented on occupy? I think their comments which amounted to 1. dont dilute your message and 2. without a leader you've got no presence ... were quite telling.

    assuming that i can take my info from what a fictional program has to say about a real world entity. (go figure that one out).

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    Re: That whole occupy thing.

    It brought to front of shop the realisation of quite how unbalanced the share of wealth is in the western world.

    The 1% and the 99% and the income inequality between them is now much higher in the general consciousness. Occupy didn't directly effect any changes, but they may have set the groundwork from which changes can be made or, at least, from which campaigns can be launched.

    As individuals, they were a bunch of proper spanners - but as a group they had a message to transmit, even if they didn't go any further than deliver it.

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    Re: That whole occupy thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by cheesyboy View Post
    It brought to front of shop the realisation of quite how unbalanced the share of wealth is in the western world.

    The 1% and the 99% and the income inequality between them is now much higher in the general consciousness. Occupy didn't directly effect any changes, but they may have set the groundwork from which changes can be made or, at least, from which campaigns can be launched.

    As individuals, they were a bunch of proper spanners - but as a group they had a message to transmit, even if they didn't go any further than deliver it.
    ARGHHHHHHHH

    No they did not. At all.

    It was a bunch of spoilt little rich idiots, too narcissistic to realise how ignorant they are.

    http://www.globalrichlist.com/wealth

    Basically it was a bunch of people who are in lets be generous the top 10%, complaining about how bad they have it vs those in the top 1%. SERIOUSLY!? They are probably in the top 5%.

    They have the money, and the power to make a difference on global inequality but they didn't, it was all about me, me, me. How dare I not have as much money as the man next door to me.

    In equality will always be there. Always. We can't all occupy the same exact space as the same exact time, there will always be better places than others. Heck look at love, there is huge inequality in my past ex's. Some far smarter than others, some far more beautiful and one was even remotely mentally balanced, even on her omelette. Someone will always have something you want.

    The problem is equality has shifted from things like making sure people have clean water, food, medicine, freedom. Into not having a latest generation iPad.
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    Re: That whole occupy thing.

    Let's be clear: I agree that they were a bunch of total nobs. And I would also say that the UK movement didn't have the same clarity of purpose as the original New York protest. And the individuals' reasons for being there may very well have been purely narcissistic (I personally believe it was so).

    However...

    When it comes to Occupy as a whole, I still believe they caused a shift in the consciousness and made some impact, albeit small, on the public's perception of fairness. Just a small contribution to making people realise that perhaps battering the poorest members of society for their perceived parasitism may be aiming at least some of our vitriol in the wrong direction - since so much wealth is commandeered by so few.

    Do I believe the rich should be persecuted for their wealth? no - and the petty-mindedness in this respect of some of the left-leaning press and public is unhelpful at best. But I do believe we should be having the conversation on wealth distribution, and Occupy helped with that.

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    Re: That whole occupy thing.

    Typical leftie stuff that if you shout and make enough 'good' posturing, then the nasty men who are hiding the cash in the cupboard will dig it out and the world will suddenly become a nice place with rainbows and ribbons and everybody will love each other and peace and love and good will and no exploitation and fairness and stuff.

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    Re: That whole occupy thing.

    Though there are certainly issues to be raised about distribution of wealth, globalisation etc the movement got hijacked by a bunch of nutters and racists before it even started.

    http://soupyone.wordpress.com/2013/1...d-open-racism/

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    Re: That whole occupy thing.

    Imagine if Occupy had used Moose or even Bears! That would have made more of an impact!

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    Re: That whole occupy thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by krazy_olie View Post
    Though there are certainly issues to be raised about distribution of wealth, globalisation etc the movement got hijacked by a bunch of nutters and racists before it even started.

    http://soupyone.wordpress.com/2013/1...d-open-racism/
    I would disagree that the racisim angle is a hijacking. If you are against people who have wealth, and you do not, you call yourself 99% you are immediately drawing a line. You have classified people.

    A lot of their argument is that the system is set up to keep them in their place, that means that the 1% has to be evil right?

    I guess I am saying that such views will naturally fall into their philosophy, and many people who are influenced by the OWS movement, are wanting a kind of fascism.
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    Re: That whole occupy thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    I would disagree that the racisim angle is a hijacking. If you are against people who have wealth, and you do not, you call yourself 99% you are immediately drawing a line. You have classified people.

    A lot of their argument is that the system is set up to keep them in their place, that means that the 1% has to be evil right?

    I guess I am saying that such views will naturally fall into their philosophy, and many people who are influenced by the OWS movement, are wanting a kind of fascism.
    The OWS movement was really pulling towards a socialism or, at its strongest, communism. Certainly not fascism.

    As for your first sentence - am I correctly interpreting that you are suggesting classifying people by wealth demographics is a natural bedfellow to racial discrimination? Because that's nonsense.

    You too have drawn similar lines;
    Basically it was a bunch of people who are in lets be generous the top 10%, complaining about how bad they have it vs those in the top 1%. SERIOUSLY!? They are probably in the top 5%.

    They have the money, and the power to make a difference on global inequality but they didn't, it was all about me, me, me. How dare I not have as much money as the man next door to me.
    It would be absurd if I were to insinuate from that post that you are likely to be a racist.

    This is all a bit of a straw man anyway - any large, poorly organised campaign gets its share of racists or similar undesirables attempting to associate for exposure, it's not something that made any mainstream headlines - unlike the main thrust of the protest (such as there was one)

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    Re: That whole occupy thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by cheesyboy View Post
    The OWS movement was really pulling towards a socialism or, at its strongest, communism. Certainly not fascism.
    Really? The London based lot definitely satisfied a lot of the points put forward by Emilio Gentile. I worry you are debating semantics on Fascism because it is a dirty word, people incorrectly assume it to be entirely NAZI ideology.

    But it's splitting hairs, lets say transfer of wealth, they are against the 1%.
    Quote Originally Posted by cheesyboy View Post
    As for your first sentence - am I correctly interpreting that you are suggesting classifying people by wealth demographics is a natural bedfellow to racial discrimination? Because that's nonsense.
    You missed out the important bit... "you are against". That is the important bit...

    Quote Originally Posted by cheesyboy View Post
    You too have drawn similar lines;
    It would be absurd if I were to insinuate from that post that you are likely to be a racist.

    This is all a bit of a straw man anyway - any large, poorly organised campaign gets its share of racists or similar undesirables attempting to associate for exposure, it's not something that made any mainstream headlines - unlike the main thrust of the protest (such as there was one)
    No it isn't straw man. I am saying that a direct component of their ideology is about saying that you are 99% we are against the 1%.

    So that against the 1%, can easily be changed to any group that has wealth. It could be class based, against those who have higher education, or very easily against race. The elephant in that room is, that Jewish Americans are likely to have more wealth than a non Jewish american. It is very hard to not end up with this kind of racisim as soon as you have anger directed at a group of people, with no understanding of those people.
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    Re: That whole occupy thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    No it isn't straw man. I am saying that a direct component of their ideology is about saying that you are 99% we are against the 1%.
    Being devil's advocate, the one percent thing is a bit scary. To me it is scary in terms of the political influence wielded by the control of that wealth, but I can see why pretentious hipster types mistakenly think redistribution will suddenly feed the world.

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    Re: That whole occupy thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by wasabi View Post
    Being devil's advocate, the one percent thing is a bit scary. To me it is scary in terms of the political influence wielded by the control of that wealth, but I can see why pretentious hipster types mistakenly think redistribution will suddenly feed the world.
    And that is the legacy of the Occupy protest. Who was previously aware that almost half of global wealth was controlled by 1% of the world's population?

    And redistribution, if it were plausible, WOULD feed the world. If you take almost 50% of the world's wealth out of the hands of the 1% and give it to everyone else, you could almost double the wealth of 99% of the world. That's not to say I support such an idea, but at its most extreme the sums add up.

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    Re: That whole occupy thing.

    Anyone who'd like to call me a wishy washy leftie can do so but I agreed with why they were doing what they did at the time, but the idea was severely lacking in the execution department. There was no momentum, no charismatic people at the forefront of the movement to explain why people were gathering and occupying public places and really no plan as to what they were going to do once they'd occupied said locations.

    Unfortunately, as a country we just aren't angry enough about the liberties being taken by the government officials and large corporations to get off our collective bottoms and give any movemet like that a real chance just yet. As long as there's a meal in the fridge, some X-Factor on the T.V and the majority of the population keep can ticking over in relative comfort our laisser-faire mentality towards such things won't change.

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    Re: That whole occupy thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by cheesyboy View Post
    And that is the legacy of the Occupy protest. Who was previously aware that almost half of global wealth was controlled by 1% of the world's population?
    Yes. Search my previous posts on this forum and it has already been discussed, by me.

    There is a difference between wealth and income.

    And redistribution, if it were plausible, WOULD feed the world. If you take almost 50% of the world's wealth out of the hands of the 1% and give it to everyone else, you could almost double the wealth of 99% of the world. That's not to say I support such an idea, but at its most extreme the sums add up.
    No it wouldn't. It might help a bit, but wouldn't fix the problem.

    So we give everyone in Africa (say) £3000 per year? Africans all say, great, I'm going to buy some rice. Within a week all the rice has sold out at 20p/packet. Couple of stock refills later, all the rice in Africa's stockpiles in gone. couple of months later, all the world's stockpiles of it are gone. So we now have virtually no rice left. What happens to the price of the remaining rice? It sells for £10 a packet as it is a seller's market.

    Now you could argue that more rice will get planted across the world to compensate, but we've got 7 billion people on the planet and not that much spare growing capacity. So maybe best case next year, the price of rice drops to £7 a packet. But the net effect is still that Mr African is starving on £3000 per annum rather than starving on £300 per annum.

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