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Thread: Why are we not leaving the EU ?

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    Why are we not leaving the EU ?

    UK Taxpayer Picks up Annual £400 Million Bill for Unemployed EU Migrants
    17th October, 2013

    Research from the European Commission suggests that it is much easier for migrants to access benefits in the UK than in other EU countries. As a result British taxpayers are paying out £1 million a day to EU citizens who have never worked in Britain.

    The research from the European Commission showed that 37% of all EU job seekers have never worked in the UK – twice the proportion in France or Germany. Taking into account just the costs of unemployment benefit and housing benefit the UK taxpayer is picking up an annual bill of £400 million for these migrants. In reality, the costs will be even higher as this does not include the costs of child benefits, and free access to the National Health Service.

    And thousands of Romanians and Bulgarians are apparently sitting in France, waiting for the restriction deadline to finish.

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    Re: Why are we not leaving the EU ?

    To be honest, I'd rather give £400m a year to poor EU migrants, then the £40billion we give away each year to the super rich and global corporations in interest payments on our national debt.

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    Re: Why are we not leaving the EU ?

    Why aren't we leaving?

    Well, for a start, it's FAR more complicated than just benefits to immigrants.

    Secondly, because the political will doesn't exist. Thirdly, because (so far, at least), our political overlords haven't yet seen fit to get around to asking US, the people, if we want to be in or not.

    And before anyone reminds me of the 1975 referendum, I'll point out that was over EEC membership, not EU membership, and the EU is a very different beast from the EEC, or Common Market. At no point have the people been asked if we wanted to join the EU, let alone if we want to get out.

    However, I'm niw of the opinion that, sooner or later, holding a referendum will have to happen. Quite when it will, or should, happen is open to debate, but I now think it is inevitable that it will.

    And when it does, I just hope there can be a proper, serious, informed and rational debate of both the pro's and con's of membership, rather than one based on Daily Mail headlines.

    We need to decide, rationally, do we want to be a small nation with full sovereignty over our own lives, including tax and spend, policing, courts, foreign policy, etc, OR do we want to be part of a much larger European superstate with all that that offers, BUT effectively give up the notion of the UK, France, Germany and a couple of dozen others as countries?

    Do we, for instance, get irate when someone from Glasgow, or Newcastle, or Cornwall moves to London for a better-paid job? Nope. So, if we're all part of a European state, why should we get excited when someone does it from Warsaw .... or Sofia/Bucharest?

    Make no mustake about it, it is NOT a straight-forward question. There are many benefits to being in the EU, and you can't expect the good without the bad.

    So, it's about a rational debate on the relative merits and disadvantages, AND about how to factor in non-economic and non-financial aspects, like 'sovereignty', and ceding legal supremacy to European courts, and control over whether we can deport fundamentalist extremist preachers, or not.

    It's pissible to make the argument that, economically, we're better of in, or out, but it's also pissible to argue that even if the economics are for 'in', those over aspects are more important. And then, it's about how important each of us regard those things as being.

    Why aren't we out?

    Because it's a VERY complicated issue, and EXTREMELY important to our future, for all sorts of reasons, and because the political elite, no matter what party, have done their damnedest to prevent us from getting to decide, because we might decide "wrong".

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    Re: Why are we not leaving the EU ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    ... effectively give up the notion of the UK, France, Germany and a couple of dozen others as countries ...
    Try telling the Scots and Welsh that Scotland and Wales aren't countries. See where it gets you

    The idea that closer integration with the EU will rob us of national identity is probably the most devisive, and IMNSHO ridiculous, argument that ever gets trotted out in the EU debate. And sadly it diverts attention from all the other more sensible arguments both for and against closer EU ties.

    The UK will still exist, and the people in it will still be uniquely British. Whatever that actually means.

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    Re: Why are we not leaving the EU ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firejack View Post
    To be honest, I'd rather give £400m a year to poor EU migrants, then the £40billion we give away each year to the super rich and global corporations in interest payments on our national debt.
    And the rest. That's just the "on balance sheet" stuff. Don't forget PFI, etc.

    And just in case everyone thought PFI was a thing of the past, the current deals for building, for instance, nuclear power stations amount to EXACTLY the same principle, that is, governments don't have to provide the capital up-front (and on the books), and we, the bill-payers, get screwed over for 30 years by guaranteeing we pay over the odds for the power generated. The only real difference between PFI and these energy deals if that with PFI the government gets the inflated charges and has to fund them out of future tax revenue. But with energy, they've cut themselves out and are sticking the public with the cost directly, in our power bills.

    A word to the wise. If your power bill now, or the current rises, makes you wince, or fume, just wait until the rest of it feeds through.

    It's a classic political con trick. Solve the problem by effectively borrowing now, but by the time the bills hit our doormat, someone else will be in power and have to answer for it.



    BUT .... do you realise the implications of objecting to that £40 billion?

    What you are arguing for is running a budget surplus each and every year. That £40 billion has come about because politicians are expected (by us) to run a government that provides services we cannot pay for out of income. So, they borrow. And if you borrow, you have to pay interest.


    We've seen, in the last few years, a coalition apparently determined to make "austerity" cuts, and despite all the heat and hot air, we STILL have a large deficit, meaning our debt is going up fast, and if bond rates ever rise (and they will, sooner or later) that £40 billion is going to start looking like a damn good deal.

    So to avoid it, we need to stop, as a nation, spending what we cannot afford to pay for. But to eliminate the deficit, we either need to cut a LOT more than we already have, or to grow a LOT faster than even recent "improved" trends suggest is possible, never mind likely.

    So, which hospitals do you think we should close?

    Do we go for school class sizes of 40 or 50, and how many thousands of teachers do we sack?

    Should we issue people with jumpers, blankets and access to soup kitchens and just stop paying benefits?

    As a nation, we demand, and expect politicians to provide, Rolls Royce (or at least Mercedes) services, and we expect them to do it on a Hyundai budget.

    Something, somewhere, has to give. Either we get used to paying interest, and being owned by Arab sovereign wealth funds and the Chinese state, or we wake up to the fact that, like so many countries, we have no inalienable mystic right to expect all these hospitals, etc, if we cannot afford them. After all, the current level of state services is a very recent development, only present for the last few decades, and still not present for most of the world's population.

    We may, as a country, be relatively wealthy, but we are also fat, lazy, self-indulgent, spoiled rotten, more concerned with rights than duties and with what we can get out not what we can put in, and unless we wake up and smell the coffee, and right quick, we'll drown in an ocean of debt. Or more to the point, to serve our own greed, we'll have drowned our kids and grandkids in an ocean of debt that THEY will pay for, to provide US with services they won't be able to afford, and won't get.

    Talk about a selfish and narcissistic generation. That's us, all right.

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    Re: Why are we not leaving the EU ?

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    Try telling the Scots and Welsh that Scotland and Wales aren't countries. See where it gets you

    The idea that closer integration with the EU will rob us of national identity is probably the most devisive, and IMNSHO ridiculous, argument that ever gets trotted out in the EU debate. And sadly it diverts attention from all the other more sensible arguments both for and against closer EU ties.

    The UK will still exist, and the people in it will still be uniquely British. Whatever that actually means.
    People can trot out nationalistic jingo, but it doesn't actually mean anything. That, after all, is exactly the case the SNP are making .... that, right or wrong, Scotland isn't a country in anything but name. Large parts of what happens there is still controlled by Westminster, which is why, right or wrong, the want independence, so that they will be a country again, not a region or province, with remote decision-making.

    And that, like it or not, is what is happening with the EU. Ever larger chunks of power are transferred from national governments to the EU. As 'competencies' expand, national Parliaments cede those areas of authority to the EU. That is what Maastricht was all about, and hugely what Lisbon was all about.

    And it's on-going now. It's happening, for instance, with banking regulation. It's certainly happening with fiscal and monetary policy. Remember the Euro crisis? Most EU nations are Euro members, and even those that are not, like us, accept that a common currency does not and cannot work without common monetary policy,and we've already seen the price some countries have been told to expect for that, which is to submit national budgets to the EU for "approval".

    Remember, joining the Euro was supposed to have involved meeting a whole series of criteria, like debt levels, and IF you join, at least in theory, you submit your ability as a nation to borrow to those limits imposed from without. And there goes another chunk of sovereignty, that of borrowing limits. And the current developments for monetary and fiscal union, which we're staying out of, take that a lot further.

    Of course, Scots and Welsh do, and will, retain a strong and proud cultural identity but the FACT remains that, at least unless and until the SNP win their referendum, they are NOT sovereign nations, and the core of power does NOT reside in Edinburgh or Glasgow. That's what's blowing an icy draft up Salmond's kilt, and causing icicles on his sporran.

    And ditto, re: the EU. No doubt, in 100 years, the French will see themselves as French and be proud of Champagne and Bree, the Germans will see themseles as German and be making BMWs, and the British see themselves as British, and be making ..... erm, dunno, exactly. But we'll still be proud of Churchill and a stiff upper lip.

    But where will decisions be made? London, Paris and Berlin? Or Brussels, with London, Paris and Berlin being provincial government seats, making whatever decisions central government in Brussels lets them make, much like Cardiff and Edinburgh currently do.


    There are countless examples of this. I mean, we hear it on the news just about every week. Government here makes a policy decision, and some body in Brussels points out, no, that breaks EU law and we CAN'T do that. For instance, recent government moves on access to benefits. Or on who we can or cannot deport, and for what. Or prisoner's voting rights. Or whether life without possibility of review for parole is legal. And so on.

    In large numbers of areas, the final decisions are bound by EU law, not UK law ..... or French, German, Dutch, Austrians, etc, law. And that is loss of sovereignty.

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    Re: Why are we not leaving the EU ?

    On a similar note: I have a very good friend who is 100% behind the EU and hopes to work in Brussels as a civil servant. The one thing he keeps saying to me, however, is that nationality comes down to something very simple. When Argentina invaded the Falklands, members of the armed forces were sent to fight and die to protect British soil. If Turkey invaded Greece next year, would British (i.e. European) troops march without question to fight and die to protect European soil? What about in 10 years' time? 20? When are we as much European as we are British?

    Until that point, any pretence of being "European" is nonsensical, and what it actually represents is little more than a loose affiliation of states for convenience - the complete opposite of what the EU wishes to be.

    In answer to the OP, because the benefits outweigh the negatives. It is my personal belief that the main problem is that the Daily Mail and UKIP constantly harp on about the negatives, but nobody has needed to sell the positives because it is the status quo - I hope that one of the outcomes of the promised referendum is an opportunity for the pro-EU parties to explain precisely why they are pro-EU and counter all of the negatives that have been repeatedly publicised over the years, so that we have a genuine two-sided debate and people can think for themselves and make a reasoned decision, not based on hyperbole. After the AV debacle however, I don't hold out much hope.

    We're far too stupid to even possibly understand what those clever, clever politicians are talking about and we'll all be much better off if they just simplify it into one graphic and a couple of slogans.

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    Re: Why are we not leaving the EU ?

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    Try telling the Scots and Welsh that Scotland and Wales aren't countries. See where it gets you
    Oh Scotland is a country, but Wales isnt.

    Its why Great Britain consists of England (and Wales) and Scotland.

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    Re: Why are we not leaving the EU ?

    The scaremongering in the DM etc. is also very convenient for national politicians. A convenient scapegoat for all the nation's ills. The national government may look like they don't know what they are doing, but really if only it wasn't for interference from Brussels they country would be perfect.

    In effect the EU is run by the Commission and the council of ministers. And yes, there's not much accountability there. But the powers that be (government ministers and their civil servants) like it like that. Deals behind closed doors is what government do at inter-governmental meetings. And what governments like even more is that when they make a deal behind those closed doors, they can then come home and make a big speech blaming it on someone else - even if in actual fact they did a deal which would be unpopular at home because the other government agreed to something at the Council of Minister meeting which was actually far more important to the great speech-making politician (although possibly rather unpopular in said politician's country).

    So there is certainly a real lack of direct democratic decisions: in effect the Commision and Council of Ministers is representative democracy for representatives (or even representatives of representatives). But the blame for that are mostly national politicians. The Council of Ministers certainly is never going to give the European Parliament any power.

    Some of the things UKIPers always complain about are actual decisions which have nothing to do with the EU though. The European Court of Human Rights operates via the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) which is part of the Council of Europe - that is every European country except Belarus plus all the other former Soviet states except for Kazakhstan. It's being a member of the Council of Europe which demands no dealth penalty and other rights. If the UK were to withdraw from the ECHR, the company would consists of those two (Belarus & Kazakhstan) and not much else.

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    Re: Why are we not leaving the EU ?

    Roughly half of UK exports are to the EU. So there is a lot of financial linkage whether we like it or not. Personally I'm in favour of the EEC as it was 20 years ago (a loose free trade zone). Yet it seems that mission creep is turning it into a US style superstate without any effective brakes on the juggernaut.

    There are good arguments both ways. I fear however that any vote will come down to-

    -we hate furriners, save the pound, two world wars and one world cup ra ra ra stuff on one side.
    vs
    - fluffy everyone and everything is nice, peace and harmony and share the wealth, look at me aren't I progressive? on the other.
    Last edited by wasabi; 21-10-2013 at 10:27 AM. Reason: wars not wards

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    Re: Why are we not leaving the EU ?

    We are in Europe (though thankfully not the Eurozone) and there is no way we are coming out nor do I think we should. Forget about a referendum, we cannot survive the tiger economies unless we are part of the EU.

    We should stop this faffing about with all this 'in or out' lark and get our best people into Europe to cement our identity and to make English the singularly important language of Europe.

    As a Country that comprises Scots, Welsh, English and Irish we are uniquely gifted, as evidenced in history, to bring our leadership and way of life to the benefit of others.

    It is understandable that Europe isn't always viewed as serving our interests and that's because it isn't; the many member states are entitled to expect their interests to be acknowledged too.

    Let's get hold of Europe and do what we do best: lead. The time is ripe. The alternative is being hung out to dry across the channel and the pond.

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    Re: Why are we not leaving the EU ?

    Quote Originally Posted by santa claus View Post
    Let's get hold of Europe and do what we do best: lead. The time is ripe. The alternative is being hung out to dry across the channel and the pond.
    Like Switzerland?

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    Re: Why are we not leaving the EU ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kompukare View Post
    ....

    Some of the things UKIPers always complain about are actual decisions which have nothing to do with the EU though. The European Court of Human Rights operates via the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) which is part of the Council of Europe - that is every European country except Belarus plus all the other former Soviet states except for Kazakhstan. It's being a member of the Council of Europe which demands no dealth penalty and other rights. If the UK were to withdraw from the ECHR, the company would consists of those two (Belarus & Kazakhstan) and not much else.
    Well, that's both right, and at the same time, wrong.

    Yes, the ECtHR deals with the UCHR, which is part of the Council of Europe, not the EU. Therefore, the decisions of the ECtHR cannot be laid, at least directly, at the feet of the EU or its institutions.

    BUT .... as ever, it's not that simple.

    Being part of, or bound by, the UCHR is not required to belong to the EU, but abiding by it's principles is. Also, negotiations for the EU, as a legal entity, to gain accession to the UCHR are advanced, a final draft was publushed several months ago, and seeking such accession is a treaty commitment by the EU. It's part of Lisbon. As was, by the way, that legal identity for the EU. And by EU, I mean the collection of bodies that is the EU, NOT the member states.

    There is a convincing argument that says EU Member states are already bound by the ECHR by virtue of EU membership, and that argument will strengthen immeasurably as and when EU accession occurs, and even the Protocol 30 opt-out some countries (including the UK) have will not affect that.

    Furthermore, on accession, even the EU CofJ will be bound by UCHR obligations, and hence, ECtHR decisions.

    And finally, while currently at least, the EU CofJ is independent of the ECtHR, it is VERY mindful of decisions of that court, and even more so of the guiding principles. And that's before the EU becomes a member in it's own right, which it is actively proceeding to do.

    It is certainly true that many (probably most) think the ECHR is part of the EU, and you are entirely right, it is not. But, it's not correct that it is "nothing" to do with those decisions, because member states are arguably bound by four or five legally complex indirect routes through EU treaty obligations, even if they were the quit the UCHR altogether.

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    Re: Why are we not leaving the EU ?

    Quote Originally Posted by wasabi View Post
    Roughly half of UK exports are to the EU. So there is a lot of financial linkage whether we like it or not. Personally I'm in favour of the EEC as it was 20 years ago (a loose free trade zone). Yet it seems that mission creep is turning it into a US style superstate without any effective brakes on the juggernaut.

    There are good arguments both ways. I fear however that any vote will come down to-

    -we hate furriners, save the pound, two world wards and one world cup ra ra ra stuff on one side.
    vs
    - fluffy everyone and everything is nice, peace and harmony and share the wealth, look at me aren't I progressive? on the other.
    Be very careful with that figure, and those assumptions, though.

    First, you need to consider both the Rotterdam/Antwerp effect, and the Netherlands distortion .... and despite the names, these are entirely different things. The latter relates to a distortion of apparent export figures through the UK's heavy reliance on Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) and the distorting effect this has because of the way statistics are calculated (for EU and OECD comparison purposes).

    The former term relates to physical transhipments of goods via the major hubs in Rotterdsm and Antwerp. Some major trading routes for ships, like the OOCL transatlantic express, don't call at UK ports. So, UK exporters finding that route cost-effective ship to the US etc via Rotterdam or Antwerp, where goods (containers) are shipped to those ports, and hence show as exports to the EU, when in fact they are then loaded back onto another ship and shipped transatlantic.

    We know these factors do distort the statistics, but accurately determining the magnitude of the distortion is no trivial exercise.

    Also, bear in mind, just how relevant is it that we export a lot to the EU? We import a lot from them too, and last time I looked, we imported more than we exported. One of the "Pro" arguments is that, somehow, leaving the EU would be disastrous for our ability to export. I don't see it. If the EU decided to play silly beggars by blocking our exports, we'd simply react by blocking imports of Mercedes, BMW, VW, Audi, Peugot, Citroen, Renault, etc.

    No, I don't see it. Both sides are too pragmatic for that, and just as the UKIPers have some scare tactics, so do the Pro-ers, and that's one of the big ones. A trade war benefits nobody, and I don't see it happening.

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    Re: Why are we not leaving the EU ?

    I don't think the British public can ever make an informed decision on EU membership because it's still not clear to what extent the EU government wants to push the Federal States of Europe.

    As things stand now, the situation is a mix of pros and cons, but pushing for a federal state would shove things firmly into the con section. You only have to look at America, India and China to see how poor our systems of government are at looking out for individuals when dealing with larger numbers of people

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    (")_(") (")_(") (")_(") (")_(") (")_(") (")_(") (")_(")


    This is bunny and friends. He is fed up waiting for everyone to help him out, and decided to help himself instead!

  20. #16
    Senior Member ajones's Avatar
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    Re: Why are we not leaving the EU ?

    Quote Originally Posted by OilSheikh View Post
    As a result British taxpayers are paying out £1 million a day to EU citizens who have never worked in Britain.
    How much do we spend on British citizens who have never worked in Britain?

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