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Thread: What ring?

  1. #49
    RIP Peterb ik9000's Avatar
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    Re: What ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barakka View Post
    I bought a bag of childrens plastic toy rings from a supermarket for £1 and used one of those to propose so she could choose the ring she wanted.
    A really good way to do it is either get a cheapo ring for the event - ring on the finger and all that, as Barakka says, or (or possible and) choose and buy the stone and present the certificate/stone (depending on how clumsy/risk averse you are) and let her know she gets to choose what it goes in. (Some) women love to have that bit of choice. You know your girl, you'll have to make the call as to whether she would appreciate that or not.

  2. #50
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: What ring?

    Also depends how public you make the engagement event..

    If it's something where she will be immediately swamped with hundreds of people asking to see the ring then a toy might not do

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    Re: What ring?

    Good read there, ik9000. Thanks for that.

    For anyone getting too carried away with the 4 'C's though, a little context.

    Some time ago, I was at a diamond cutter's in Amsterdam, and was shown a large array of stones, some in jewellery, but most bare cut stones. I selected one nice stone, about the size of a small pea. Turned out to be about 1 carat. I asked the price, and (for a pretty good stone), and was told ..... £60,000. And that was maybe 20 years ago.

    If you are looking for a typical high street ring, you can (IMHO) pretty much forget the 4 'C's, because what you're looking at is the cheap, crap end of the market. If you want quality stones, forget the high street. You want specialised dealers, and bring a second mortgage.

    Unless your name, or bank account, is Taylor, Beckham, Gates, Branson, etc, just buy a ring that looks pretty and ignore the quality of the stone.

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    The late but legendary peterb - Onward and Upward peterb's Avatar
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    Re: What ring?

    Very good read ik9000 - in another life you could have been an advisor to Ian Fleming for "Diamonds are Forever"!
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  7. #53
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    Re: What ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Good read there, ik9000. Thanks for that.

    For anyone getting too carried away with the 4 'C's though, a little context.

    Some time ago, I was at a diamond cutter's in Amsterdam, and was shown a large array of stones, some in jewellery, but most bare cut stones. I selected one nice stone, about the size of a small pea. Turned out to be about 1 carat. I asked the price, and (for a pretty good stone), and was told ..... £60,000. And that was maybe 20 years ago.

    If you are looking for a typical high street ring, you can (IMHO) pretty much forget the 4 'C's, because what you're looking at is the cheap, crap end of the market. If you want quality stones, forget the high street. You want specialised dealers, and bring a second mortgage.

    Unless your name, or bank account, is Taylor, Beckham, Gates, Branson, etc, just buy a ring that looks pretty and ignore the quality of the stone.
    I part agree, general high st, not so good. But I also disagree to ignore quality. A quality diamond at affordable price can be achieved, but it won't be a huge lump, rather a tastefully sized stone that actually looks sensible on someone's hand. We asked the jeweller we bought ours from what the most expensive diamond he'd sold was. He told us a £220,000 diamond in a ring. The diamond was so big on her finger it looked wrong, meant she would never be able to wear a glove, and probably rubbed her adjacent fingers if she wiggled them. WTF is the point?

    Equally, we have seen some stones in looking at rings that simply are dull and look like a piece of quartz. No shimmer, no glint, etc etc. Their wearer loves them, we would not. It's personal choice. The most important thing, as my wife will say, is what it means, and what it is for. That is far more important than the price tag. As the idiot splurging £220k should have realised. He could have gone 210k and had a top of the range gaming PC too. Some people....

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    Re: What ring?

    on metals, on a budget ditch platinum. Look at white gold (we did and love it). It's cheaper, and easier to work with, so should you ever need repair or resizing down the road (and fingers do swell with age (ewww)) it will be easier to get done.

    Trade off is white gold is rhodium plated and that eventually wears off. You'll prob want to get replated say every 5 years. Simple process, but does mean sending the ring away (eek) and a bit of cost later on. Equally platinum will scratch and burr and need polishing mechanically (which not all jewellers can do due to the hardness of the metal) so also leaving with a jeweller.

    NB you'll prob want to match wedding ring (bands) to engagement ring, so double the saving if you go for white gold to start with.

    Most people assume my (white gold) band is platinum. They are surprised it isn't, it looks so like it.

    Metallurgy, white gold is gold 75% with the rest silver and palladium (a very white metal). Cheaper alloys lob in some nickel etc and reduce the latter two, especially the palladium. Not a total disaster, but not ideal, and a no-no for anyone with a nickel allergy, otherwise when that rhodium plate wears thin, hello finger rash.

    Probably worth asking for a metallurgy composition confirmation prior to ordering. Any jeweller worth buying from will be able to confirm this. If they can't - worry! You'll also want to ensure future repairs use the right alloy, so you are perfectly reasonable to ask this.

  9. #55
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: What ring?

    Don't forget that white gold is so soft that the diamond fastening is likely to be platinum anyway, and think about the environmental impact of replating with rhodium - it's not a very nice process chemically. Consider putting up with the worn look (IMHO there's something nice about a ring that's been through a lot but is still worn daily) or going somewhere that will put a really good thick plate on to reduce the number of replatings you do.

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    Re: What ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by ik9000 View Post
    I part agree, general high st, not so good. But I also disagree to ignore quality. A quality diamond at affordable price can be achieved, but it won't be a huge lump, rather a tastefully sized stone that actually looks sensible on someone's hand. We asked the jeweller we bought ours from what the most expensive diamond he'd sold was. He told us a £220,000 diamond in a ring. The diamond was so big on her finger it looked wrong, meant she would never be able to wear a glove, and probably rubbed her adjacent fingers if she wiggled them. WTF is the point?

    Equally, we have seen some stones in looking at rings that simply are dull and look like a piece of quartz. No shimmer, no glint, etc etc. Their wearer loves them, we would not. It's personal choice. The most important thing, as my wife will say, is what it means, and what it is for. That is far more important than the price tag. As the idiot splurging £220k should have realised. He could have gone 210k and had a top of the range gaming PC too. Some people....
    That's kinda what I meant about ignoring quality of the stone, and buying ones that "looks pretty". You're right, it's very subjective.

    If it was an investment, or being bought with a view to resale, quality would be an issue. But personally, engagement/wedding rings aren't bought with that in mind, but with a view to what the wearer will like. If having a certificate showing carat, etc, will be important to her, fine. Otherwise, all that matters is, first, her saying "Wow, I love it", and second, what it symbolises. Or rather, those but the other way round.

    Also, personally, I'd need to have Bill Gates money before I'd spend £10k on a gaming PC, let alone £210k on ANY. jewellery. Camera gear, on the other hand ....

  11. #57
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: What ring?

    £210k on camera gear is really going some Saracen...

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    Re: What ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    £210k on camera gear is really going some Saracen...
    If I had Bill Gates type of financial resources, I'm sure I'd have no trouble at all spending that.

    First, build a studio in the garden. As that's not "camera gear", exactly, exclude the building cost. But equipping it? Include that. Lighting system, rails, backdrop system, etc. In fact, two lighting systems, one for "full size" subjects, and a second for small items, and macro. And, of course, heating to make it workable, and comfortable.

    Then, upgrade my digital darkroom equipment. Some new stuff, some replacing old gear.

    And I haven't even started on cameras (plural), let alone lenses. I guess it's probably fair to say my two primary photographic interests are at opposite ends of the equipment spectrum, that being wildlife (long, fast and extemely expensive lenses), and macro. I'm dairly well sorted macro-wise, but would indulge a bit in the long lense department for macro.

    Then, my history with film goes back 40 years, or so, and I still have a fridge full of 35mm and MF film. So, add a fully-equipped non-digital darkroom. And I'd top up portable lighting with two, maybe three, decent flashguns, radio triggers, etc, and a new lightmeter.

    Oh, and I'd replace elderly A3 printers with a A2 machine designed for high volume printing, I.e. business class machines, not the domestic end. And I no longer have access to the plotter/cutters I used to have, so add one of those.

    And to top it off, while my current primary monitor is decent, and I do have a hardware print and monitor calibrator, I'd rejig all that to a properly calibrated, high-end solution.

    I think you'd find, a few grand here, a few grand there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money.


    And yes, clearly this is pie-in-the-sky territory in the ludicrously remote off-chance that I end up with loadsa spare money and need things to spend it on, but if I had the money to spend £200k+ on a diamond ring, I would have won a triple lottery rollover, or something similar.

    But some people do have money that most people cannot dream of. One friend, for instance, spent nearly £400k having his outdoor pool filled in, and an indoor pool built. Another guy I know replaces his Ferrari EVERY year, because he insists on driving only cars on a current year's plate. The last one he traded in that I'm aware of had under 2000 miles on it. Barely run in, in my opinion. You don't even want to know what the pool sound system another friend installed cost. And they aren't in a triple rollever league, let alone Bill Gates.

    So yeah, £210k on camera gear is going some, and I'm never going to get the chance .... but so is £210k on a diamond ring, or £20m on an oil painting, or £50million on a jet, or £250m on a yacht.

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    Re: What ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Don't forget that white gold is so soft that the diamond fastening is likely to be platinum anyway,
    Can you back this up? People get very hung-up on platinum being hard, gold being soft. Gold alloy is fine for ring mounts, but it will be 18ct max ie 75% Au such as normal white gold. It is slightly softer than platinum but we're not talking putty softness. The hardness of platinum can actually cause problems on a mount if the ring takes a knock and the mount gets bent. We were advised platinum would then need removal and replacement of the affected pins whereas gold could be repositioned without needing a full re-solder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    Very good read ik9000 - in another life you could have been an advisor to Ian Fleming for "Diamonds are Forever"!
    Yeah, definitely you could be ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by ik9000 View Post
    Also: for all and future folk who may want it... the ik9000 learnings when he bought an engagement ring:

    1) do not stress about sizes, and costs, and expectations of how much salary-wise a man should spend on said ring. It's is literally marketing BS invented by de Beers (diamond company) to boost sales in the 1920s/1930s. Set yourself a budget and do NOT shift from it.

    2) size is not everything QUALITY is what counts. A large poor quality diamond is far worse, and far uglier, than a small good quality sparkler. (see below)

    3) don't forget to consider other stones, friends have had sapphires, emeralds, etc as the primary set, and used very small diamonds around it to get a cracker of a ring at less than a single big diamond would have cost.

    4) basically diamonds cost exponentially more with size - it is way easier to get no defects in smaller diamonds, because they can be cut-up to avoid the natural blemishes nature brings

    5) look out for treated diamonds - some folk try to pressure impregnate fissures. This is not great, and always check it hasn't been done if you really care about the stone you're getting.

    6) ok, so starting with diamond quality.... people talk about "the 4Cs"
    they mean
    i)carat weight (size or more specifically weight of the stone)
    ii)colour (how clear is the diamond)
    iii)clarity (how many natural flaws/defects does the diamond have)
    iv)cut (how regular/irregularly shaped is the diamond)

    These are not the b'all and end-all - to really get a stellar diamond you need to go a little deeper, but let us start with these (briefly - there are websites a plenty to go to muchos detail, this is intended as a summary only)

    i) carat . Don't get hung up on this. Go for what you can afford, but try to drop just below a key boundary. You'll get better quality diamonds and also avoid the size premium. E.g. a .46 Carat diamond is virtually indistinguishable for a 0.5 carat diamond in terms of size. However, 0.5 carat carries a huge premium as it is one of the "target" sizes. 0.75, 1.0 carat similarly etc etc.

    To get the monikar 0.5 carat, people are willing to cut the diamond at worse geometry (see below) giving duller sparkle etc, just to get a 0.5 carat diamond they can sell.

    The result is a wide availability of 0.5 carat diamonds, most of which are, if you really want a firey sparkler of a diamond, not going to give it.

    So by looking under the boundary, there are fewer stones, and most will be cut to a better geometry to start with.

    ii) colour - how clear/"white" the diamond is. Natural impurities can produce a variety of coluors. Bright colours fetch a premium eg pink, yellow, blue etc Brown diamonds are cheaper, white diamonds more expensive. Most studies indicate people like diamonds at colour I or above. D being white, I slightly brown. anything less than I, avoid.

    Now when we went to look at diamonds, anything D-F is fine. G and below against white flourescent paper slightly brown, below I we're talking gradual progression to coca-cola spill territory.

    Stick a D next to an F on a white background, you can tell the difference, but when are you ever going to do that with rings on hands? You're not.

    So sweet spot depending on your budget may be to start by going for an F colour.

    FYI tiffanys use colour I upwards in their jewellery for exactly these reasons.


    iii) clarity. Defects exist in a variety of forms. Mainly inclusions either on the surface or internally, but also banding, feathering, tears and pin-prick spatters of bubbles etc.

    Scale is Perfect (P) aka Flawless (F) - internally flawed (IF) - Very very slightly included (VVS1), very very slightly included surface (VVS2), very slightly included (VS1), very slightly included surface (VS2), then slightly included SI1, SI2, then included I1, I2,I3 etc.

    Do not even consider anything less than SI2. Jewellers I spoke to said SI1/2 can be ok, but it needs a careful choice, and sometimes careful mounting to conceal the bigger defects

    VS2 and above needs a microscope to see the defect. I.e. JUST FINE. The bigger diamonds are less forgiving so need step up in quality.

    VS-2 or better will be ok for less than 0.5 carat, VS1 or better for more than 0.5 carat, and really think about going VVS2 or higher for above 1 carat. If you're a millionaire and going 1.5 carat or higher you're on your own, but I imagine you wouldn't want to go less than VVS1, possibly IF...

    NB clarity is talking about microscopic inclusions. For a given grade this could mean it has one big inclusion, or several little ones in a cluster. If on the wrong point of the diamond, eg a ridge, they can be noticable. This is why going VS2 is a better bet than SI1. Or VS1 better than VS2 etc. Each band places more restriction on location of defect, as well as total volume of said defects.

    iv)cut - basically, how to standard is the cut. Many different shapes of diamond exist. Each shape has been studied and people have worked out via theory and consumer testing which geometries give the preferred sparkle, shimmer, coloration of refraction etc etc. edit:It also considers symmetry, and the pattern internally and externally of the diamond when viewed from certain angles. The GIA pdf wall chart link I give below explains this in pictures far better than I can do in words...

    The best are rated excellent, then very good, good, average, and poor. IMO do not go less than very good. I'd rather have an excellent 0.43 carat than a good 0.5 carat diamond.

    If you're going for some of the shapes with long edges and distinct symmetry eg pear shaped/tear drop, or oval then keeping above VERY GOOD is a necessity. I've seen stones at GOOD rating which are visibly asymmetric, used in a necklace and it ruins the jewelry.
    Yeah, that's pretty much about 4C's. Good read

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Also depends how public you make the engagement event..

    If it's something where she will be immediately swamped with hundreds of people asking to see the ring then a toy might not do
    Yeah, a toy might not do ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by herulach View Post
    This is true, but women being women, if she knows you can afford it and you don't spend it then you're buggered! Whilst I know that really I paid significantly more than I cuold have for a second hand one for my OH's the way I figure it the ~1.8k spread over a lifetime isn't really that much. And it still gives me a bit of a thrill 10 years later to see her looking at it sparkle when its sunny.
    That is so sweet and yes if it has to be spend over a lifetime then it isn't much.
    Last edited by peterb; 09-12-2013 at 07:15 PM. Reason: Merge four consecutive posts

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    Re: What ring?

    I am engaged In the end I went for an eye clean 0.6c SI2 cert Diamond (IGI), Colour G, Cut Very Good. It is very nice and I am happy!
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    Re: What ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by neonplanet40 View Post
    I am engaged In the end I went for an eye clean 0.6c SI2 cert Diamond (IGI), Colour G, Cut Very Good. It is very nice and I am happy!
    Fantastic news, congratulations!

  18. #63
    RIP Peterb ik9000's Avatar
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    Re: What ring?

    Quote Originally Posted by neonplanet40 View Post
    I am engaged
    Yay! Good works!

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    Re: What ring?

    along the topic of ring size, does anyone have a good strategy to measure her finger without her noticing?

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