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Thread: Apparently the floods were the governments fault.

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    Re: Apparently the floods were the governments fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    He's allowed to say whatever he wants. But he also has to accept any consequences (and that people will almost inevitably disagree with him, in both directions).
    And what if some of the bible teaches what in modern terms is hate speech?

    No. 31% isn't significant in a binary choice. I'd like you to accept
    that most Christians *don't* believe that bible is the literal word of God. I wrote a lengthy and analytical post on the topic, but decided it wasn't going to take this thread in a helpful direction, so I dumped it (but i still have the full text if you're actually interested in my analysis of the discussion so far). But apparently you're set on having the teachings and beliefs of Christians conform to your stereotype. So I guess neither of us is going to end this conversation happy...
    Likewise I could go into a long post about why your analysis of the numbers is wrong. If you really are bothered, PM it and I'll send you a long PM back later in the week when I'm off the current work project. It becomes a close match of an example chapter of the book of How to lie with statistics.

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    Re: Apparently the floods were the governments fault.

    when the bible's a work of fiction who the hell cares I know I don't if we did not have religion in this world it would be a far better place for it, look back through history and just about every man made catastrophe has been to do with religion and ideology .as for politicians I would get rid of every last one of them as they are all in it for what they can get out of it and not to serve the people that put them in office
    in this digital age why are we not now self governing using policy think tanks and everyone over 18 gets to vote on a Friday night with a simple yes no vote through your digital enabled tv.

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    Re: Apparently the floods were the governments fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post

    a) Councillor isn't actually a profession - you don't get paid for it. So him being a councillor has nothing to do with professionalism.

    b) As a local councillor, he holds office *purely* to represent the occupants of his ward. Unless he can provide evidence that significant numbers of his ward had made the same point to him, he is using his office to propagate his personal agenda, which is at the very least a breach of trust. And I doubt many people came up to him and said "ooh, these floods you know - I bet God's angry about the gays".
    A - I used the term profession as Knoxville used it.

    B Perhaps an element is true in theory - but the idea of representative democracy is that you elect someone for a term to make all decisions within a fixed scope on you behalf. Subtly different. Most are still Tory / LibDem / Labour, UKIP etc And funnily enough in N Ireland are heavily split on religious / Unionist / Nationalist grounds.

    And results in local elections get swayed heavily by party politics at a national level. The two are intertwined.

    So his ideas are embarrassing for UKIP at a national level - even though he is a local councillor and this has nothing to do with his remit anyway. So I question the motives of his critics.
    Last edited by wasabi; 22-01-2014 at 10:37 AM. Reason: repetition repetition

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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Apparently the floods were the governments fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by eltel View Post
    when the bible's a work of fiction
    That's quite an interesting claim. On one hand, yes - everything that anyone writes down is a work of fiction because they're telling an account of something, whether it's a story, or their recollection of an event that took place, or the recollection of what someone said took place. On the other, the Bible's a largely accurate representation of very old documents, which themselves were written in some cases by the people involved, or passed down through oral history through not all that many generations before being written down. So in some cases the Bible's representation of a letter that say St Paul wrote, is in fact not at all fiction, but really the letter he wrote. Likewise it contains various peoples accounts of things that happened - whether you believe their accounts is one thing, but it's harder to deny that the Bible makes a fairly accurate attempt at portraying those accounts (as far as historical documents that old go).

    To try and read the Bible as one simple textbook would be to misunderstand how it was physically and historically created.

    if we did not have religion in this world it would be a far better place for it
    That's an opinion that's come up before, and I highly disagree with it. Bad people do bad things, and will use any tool and excuse for it that they have available to them. Wars have taken place on many grounds, religion is one, but territory, race, family, culture, gang whatever are at least as frequently the cause. People fight when they have differences, and religion is but one.

    look back through history and just about every man made catastrophe has been to do with religion and ideology
    Ideology, arguably, but not religion.

    In fact most religions could even claim to have a beneficial effect on society.

    as for politicians I would get rid of every last one of them as they are all in it for what they can get out of it and not to serve the people that put them in office
    in this digital age why are we not now self governing using policy think tanks and everyone over 18 gets to vote on a Friday night with a simple yes no vote through your digital enabled tv.
    That worked so well for the athenians

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    The Old Fox csgohan4's Avatar
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    Re: Apparently the floods were the governments fault.

    I think it's safe to say religion is an interpretation of current scriptures and whether they are the word of God or not is another entire discussion.

    Simply reading the bible is not enough, there is so much more meaning and interpretation when analysed in bible study. I am sure the same goes for other religions.

    People run a dangerous path in imposing their ideals onto others especially what we would term as inflammatory and /or derogatory in current terms.

    I find it Mr UKIP to be quite the hypocrite, judging others so quickly before looking at the 'plank' in his own eye.

    Political and own personal life/ opinions should always separated or there will be repercussions. You may alienate the people who don't worship the same God or believe in the same religion for example.

    I am glad he was suspended.

    Whether he believed what he said was true for Christianity, he held office and he would be better to resign and just hang around Oxford circus with a loud speaker shouting 'your going to hell'.

    Whether he was small political fry or not is irrelevant. He represented UKIP not just his local church.

    Do doctors hold daily prayers with their dying patients? No because they will get struck off. Personal and professional life MUST be separate.

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    Re: Apparently the floods were the governments fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by csgohan4 View Post
    People run a dangerous path in imposing their ideals onto others
    How did he 'impose' his ideals?

    especially what we would term as inflammatory and /or derogatory in current terms.
    Interesting. While the floods bit is logically bonkers, the Bible has plenty of anti-gay remarks. Now I actually agree they are inflammatory, but is freedom of speech so onerous he can't even utter the words? I'm scared for our democracy if he can't.

    I find it Mr UKIP to be quite the hypocrite, judging others so quickly before looking at the 'plank' in his own eye.
    Which plank?

    Political and own personal life/ opinions should always separated or there will be repercussions. You may alienate the people who don't worship the same God or believe in the same religion for example.


    I am glad he was suspended.

    Whether he believed what he said was true for Christianity, he held office and he would be better to resign and just hang around Oxford circus with a loud speaker shouting 'your going to hell'.

    Whether he was small political fry or not is irrelevant. He represented UKIP not just his local church.

    Do doctors hold daily prayers with their dying patients? No because they will get struck off. Personal and professional life MUST be separate.
    Did he hide his Christian beliefs from voters in the council elections? I doubt it, though happy to be proved wrong if anyone knows more.

    To me this is why we need a formal separation of church and state. Not so that we stop offending poor sensitive souls who are too fragile to have their cosy beleifs challenged, but simply to make abuse of power through religion irrelevant through impossibility. In this respect the USA is way ahead of the UK. The ban on school prayers for example being the most commonly challenged side-effect.

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    Re: Apparently the floods were the governments fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by wasabi View Post
    To me this is why we need a formal separation of church and state. Not so that we stop offending poor sensitive souls who are too fragile to have their cosy beleifs challenged, but simply to make abuse of power through religion irrelevant through impossibility. In this respect the USA is way ahead of the UK. The ban on school prayers for example being the most commonly challenged side-effect.
    I don't follow your argument. That would have no effect whatsoever on the UKIP chap saying what he did. He was not acting in any way as part of an official state religion.

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    Hexus.Jet TeePee's Avatar
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    Re: Apparently the floods were the governments fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    That's quite an interesting claim. On one hand, yes - everything that anyone writes down is a work of fiction because they're telling an account of something, whether it's a story, or their recollection of an event that took place, or the recollection of what someone said took place. On the other, the Bible's a largely accurate representation of very old documents, which themselves were written in some cases by the people involved, or passed down through oral history through not all that many generations before being written down. So in some cases the Bible's representation of a letter that say St Paul wrote, is in fact not at all fiction, but really the letter he wrote. Likewise it contains various peoples accounts of things that happened - whether you believe their accounts is one thing, but it's harder to deny that the Bible makes a fairly accurate attempt at portraying those accounts (as far as historical documents that old go).

    To try and read the Bible as one simple textbook would be to misunderstand how it was physically and historically created.

    That's an opinion that's come up before, and I highly disagree with it. Bad people do bad things, and will use any tool and excuse for it that they have available to them. Wars have taken place on many grounds, religion is one, but territory, race, family, culture, gang whatever are at least as frequently the cause. People fight when they have differences, and religion is but one.

    Ideology, arguably, but not religion.

    In fact most religions could even claim to have a beneficial effect on society.

    That worked so well for the athenians

    I also disagree that the bible is fiction. If someone writes a biography, it is by definition non-fiction, even if it's spectacularly inaccurate and the events contained did not actually happen.

    In the case of the bible, it's very hard to determine what is true and what simply didn't happen. We know that none of the Gospels are eyewitness accounts, and the authorship is very dubious. But they may have been drawing from eyewitness accounts. We know that some of the more important stuff, like the Exodus simply didn't happen. The historical Jesus is probably a later invention.

    Paul is an important part of this. The Bible is probably fairly accurate in representing the writings of Paul, but there are some very big differences between Pauline Christianity which influenced the creation of The Bible, and Jesuism.

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    Re: Apparently the floods were the governments fault.

    This is the UK. Everything is the government's fault and everything that isn't the government's fault is the fault of the EU.

    I actually felt sorry for Cameron yesterday. When Obama and Gaillard went to disaster zones they received a warm welcome from the locals and admiration. When Cameron went to a flooded village he received complaints about the local council.

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