(Independent) Scotland and the pound?

[adidan]

Not taken as narky. Not at all.

As for your GF, the answer lies, I should think, in those treaties, both EU and Commonwealth. Assuming she's from a country in one of them. They are, as I said, reciprocal.

Also, using one of the existing franchises keeps cost down. Setting up a completely new set of criteria risks serious escalation. Third, the Refefendum is the result of intehsive negotiation between Holyrood and Westminster, and it's only happening at all because Westminster passed enabling legislation. Salmond wanted 16 & 17 year-olds in, because the demographics suggest it benefits him, and no doubt, Cameron extracted a price for that in other areas. But, ultimately, it's the result of compromise and negotiation that it's happening at all.

Who knows, if it's over 99% yes like it was when Norway had theirs it'll make no difference, statistically, whatsoever.

Anyway, in other news am I being a too suspicious in wondering about the timing of the announcement abot Kate's 'spare to the heir'?

Do you think the 'no' camp have been worriedly harassing Buck Pal for the past few days?

[george1979]

Point taken, George.

I said part of me hoped for yes. One reason is that absent Scots MPs, we (down here) would have a Tory government now, not a coalition, and it'd make the chances of another 13 years of Labour significantly less likely.

I guess both sides of the border have suffered political trauma as a result of the Union

But seriously, that issue just might be one of the best arguments for independence. If you lot, up there, want a broadly left government and us lot, down here, want that much less than you, then you want a different government from us.

That, IMHO, is a great reason for voting yes. I just wish Salmond would have seriously addressed issues like the alternative to currency union instead of just pretending every party leader down here is just lying when they say "no way is that happening".

There are alternatives. Using sterling without union, having a new currency, and others. So, specifying the alternative IF a currency union isn't on the table (and in my opinion, it seriously isn't) would at least be honest, because then, the pro's and con's, and likely implications, could at least be discussed. But he won't, despite being told specifically, repeatedly and very emphatically a currency union is NOT going to happen, post-independence. Yet, he blathers on pretending it is, just because he wants it, and utterly fails to acknowledge the possibility that when Osborne, Balls etc say "no way" they just might mean "no way".

And ditto the EU.

And so on.

Totally agree. England seems to be leaning more and more right at the moment, which I don't doubt is a side effect of the recession, whereas Scotland leans more left. Eventually something has to give and its better to do it in a respectful, dare I say, British fashion than have it acrimoniously drag on for years

I can also see why getting stuck with Blair/Brown may have rankled some of those Tories and ukippers

Speaking of which - we have one Tory MP up here who may be looking for political asylum soon lol

Regarding the EU I see it as somewhat of a red herring at the moment as there's a good chance the rest of the UK will vote to take us out of the EU if we vote to stay in the UK!

[george1979]

Anyway, in other news am I being a too suspicious in wondering about the timing of the announcement abot Kate's 'spare to the heir'?

Do you think the 'no' camp have been worriedly harassing Buck Pal for the past few days?

Haha you know the same thought ran thru my mind today but I can almost guarantee the nutter elements of the Yes campaign will be furiously typing up their conspiracy theories on their blogs or whatever.

[SeriousSam]

Both campaigns are using fear as a motivator because ultimately it is the most effective means of swaying the most amount of people. Especially in today's "terror alert" climate. However, the YES team have been much better at portraying themselves as positive and their opponents as negative. Though the really sneaky thing that they have managed to do is convince a significant proportion of the Scottish people that independence is a means to achieve their dreams. Irrespective of whether they could also be realised whilst part of the union.

So if this is the fun and games we can expect to see in the event we get a referendum on the EU... it could get very messy.

[neonplanet40]

I have thought it over numerous times and I will be voting Yes. I believe this is the right decision and will be the best decision for my family and beyond. There will be hard times (as there is for everyone).

My only hope, is that on the day of voting, people make informed decisions and do not vote due to fear or because they don't understand bias. Unfortunately most people I talk to are more worried about the pound than anything else. Which is unfortunate.

[peterb]

Interesting that shares in Scotland based companies dropped in value today on the publication of the latest polls.

From the political perspective, the labour party has much more to lose in the short term if they lose their Scottish constituencies. Longer term the Boundaries Commission will sort out the imbalance, but that will take time.

Not that that is (correctly) any concern of those that do have a vote!

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I'd say it's in part due to globalisation. I've no issue with globalisation per say, I'm all for international co-operation, trade and so on. Its that many peoples have become disenfranchised during the process. Being governed from afar and not really feeling that they have any control over the issues that matter to them or how their taxes are spent eventually wears a bit thin.
Bigger isn't always better! (at least that's what I used to tell my ex lol)

In two places I have lived in,one had a terrible civil war due to nationalism,and another one is probably going to split apart due to it(hopefully peaceful),but TBH I am just sick of nationalism and the whole living in the past,blaming someone else for your ills("us" and "them" and how "them" are ruining your life),the grass is greener on the other side(Dick Whittington syndrome) since they are stealing from you and emphasis on the differences of people and not the similarities. You see its the SAME arguments made for time immemorial by nationalists everywhere.

Seems to be happening more and more and more now in the world. People are looking backwards to the past not forward to the future and splitting into smaller and smaller groups. Yet there is a wider world out there and instead of fearing differences we should be embracing similarities. Humanity is probably doomed at this rate - we have so many more important problems as a species we need to solve,yet we are more worried about tribal matters,and whether some person died 100 years ago,or someone made offence 250 years ago and getting all worked up about it. The feeling still remains but the reasons are lost to the sands of time.

Yet 100s of years ago the utopia never existed - unless you were a king or queen or the clergy,most people lived in absolute serfdom and utterly horrible conditions at the whim of the ruling classes. People have never had it so good in the last 60 years and they tend to forget how bad life was.

But anyway thats my opinion I am sure YMMV. Maybe its time for me to build a moat around my house.

Anyway good luck!

PS:

You want Tony and Gordon back? They did a GREAT job down here!

[Saracen]

....

Regarding the EU I see it as somewhat of a red herring at the moment as there's a good chance the rest of the UK will vote to take us out of the EU if we vote to stay in the UK!

A chance, I agree. But how good it is? Not so sure. First, it'll almost certainly need a Tory win, with a majority. The LDs won't go for it, and so far at least, there's no real sign Labour will. So it'd need either a Tory outright win, or in the event that UKIP get a significant Westminster presence (unlikely, but possible) a Tory/UKIP combination, simply in order to get a referendum.

Even then, official Tory policy is, yes, referendum, but to stay in, albeit "renegotiated". Just what changes they can get remain to be seen.

And then, the "leave" camp would have to win it, which is also by no means certain. Unfortunately. Though, in truth, it's more likely if Scotland leaves. But that vote would have to get past the same FUD tactics used about Scotland leaving the UK.

So, you could see the UK either not get a referendum, or get one and decided to stay, while meantime, Scotland applies and someone vetoes it over their own domestic concerns with separatists. Not saying it would happen. But it could.

[george1979]

In two places I have lived in,one had a terrible civil war due to nationalism,and another one is probably going to split apart due to it(hopefully peaceful),but TBH I am just sick of nationalism and the whole living in the past,blaming someone else for your ills("us" and "them" and how "them" are ruining your life),the grass is greener on the other side(Dick Whittington syndrome) since they are stealing from you and emphasis on the differences of people and not the similarities. You see its the SAME arguments made for time immemorial by nationalists everywhere.


PS:

You want Tony and Gordon back? They did a GREAT job down here!

Just because the media calls them nationalists doesn't make them 'nationalist' in the sense you speak of. Here they are very much talking about looking outwards, being part of a wider community of nation states and even, shock horror, promoting immigration (i.e. embracing differences)!
Generally, people aren't blaming the English or even Westminster for Scotland's ills (although there is still bitterness towards the Torys, and rightly so). Hell there are much worse places to be but its about managing our own future.

It's all very well saying you hate nationalism when you're a citizen of the country which ruled many of the countries wanting to go their own way! Its perhaps understandable that you can't see their point of view but you should perhaps try and empathise with their position, after all millions of people didn't just suddenly wake up one day and decide to become independent. It would, I would suggest, be sensible to try to understand how they ended up at that stage rather than denounce it as petty nationalism.

Also your suggestion seems to be that people who feel aggrieved at how they are governed should just put up with it because the grass may not be greener or that its better to be part of a larger community? Doesn't exactly appeal

If you see the energy in the process up here you'd understand its not about blaming others, looking to the past or thinking the grass is greener. Quite the opposite - its about taking responsibility for our future.

But that's just my tuppence worth

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Just because the media calls them nationalists doesn't make them 'nationalist' in the sense you speak of. Here they are very much talking about looking outwards, being part of a wider community of nation states and even, shock horror, promoting immigration (i.e. embracing differences)!
Generally, people aren't blaming the English or even Westminster for Scotland's ills (although there is still bitterness towards the Torys, and rightly so). Hell there are much worse places to be but its about managing our own future.

It's all very well saying you hate nationalism when you're a citizen of the country which ruled many of the countries wanting to go their own way! Its perhaps understandable that you can't see their point of view but you should perhaps try and empathise with their position, after all millions of people didn't just suddenly wake up one day and decide to become independent. It would, I would suggest, be sensible to try to understand how they ended up at that stage rather than denounce it as petty nationalism.

Also your suggestion seems to be that people who feel aggrieved at how they are governed should just put up with it because the grass may not be greener or that its better to be part of a larger community? Doesn't exactly appeal

If you see the energy in the process up here you'd understand its not about blaming others, looking to the past or thinking the grass is greener. Quite the opposite - its about taking responsibility for our future.

But that's just my tuppence worth

I lived in more than one country (and I know plenty of people from others) and its the same arguments all the time with nationalists,but with a different spin. I have family from another country which was invaded and ruled by three different foreign powers,including the British. So I could bitch and moan about the evil Union even more than people up north could especially since divide and conquer led to decades of internal strife. However,unlike many nationalists I don't live in the past and give a damn about old history,and this "whole they are dragging us down crap" since its political bull****.

Its all about "us" and "them" and it is about blaming others especially during times of economic downturn. If it were not none of these "separatist" movements would happen. That is what it is all about. Create enemies so you can rally round them.

Especially reading the comments of many scots on many news articles(and forums) it seems it is mostly about blaming others(well the English,Welsh and all of those southerners or "whitehall" which we all know is basically the same thing) for the problems in Scotland(stealing our monies - the barstewards) hence "the others can clear off since they are dragging us down mentality" ,and all the nationalists go on about how the grass is so much greener down south. Yes with massive overcrowding,costly housing,costly transport, and relatively low pay for most people considering all that. Yes,its a bloody utopia down here.

It seems almost every forum and article comment seems centred about whitehall this and southerners that. Maybe you should check more forums and article comments out.

I bet if we were not in a recession and everything was economically hunky dory,no one would be calling for separation - but since it isn't someone needs to be blamed. Oh yes its whitehall/the southerners.

It still does not change the fact that it was good old Blair and Brown who ended up leading us into ruin with their great economic policies. Maybe,we can start a "blame the scots" movement down here and ask for compensation -yes I am being very sarcastic - since everyone knows scottish people are generally far better at doing the ruling job better than the peons in Engl..sorry Whitehall.

So basically separate because whitehall/southerners are stealing your monies/interfering with your greatness so you can be ruled by scots who are inherently will be better at the job,when it was a pair of scots who ended up leading the country to ruin,sold our gold reserves for a relative pittance,plunging us into two costly wars,and probably ended up interfering up north at the same time. But,but its always the southerners/whitehall.

We have been ruled for 100s of years by politicians from everywhere in the country who have effed up multiple times,and that only says that we need better politicians in the first place and where they came from does not make a difference.

The same lot will be ruling Scotland. I don't see most of them suddenly changing their stripes!

But what happens if you one day get another great two-some who screws up as much as Blair and Brown. Who is going to be blamed then? I bet its some conspiracy.

For instance this piece of news:

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp...s-moves-ahead/

Look at many of major news sites - what do you see in the comments section?? Scottish posters repeatedly saying it is some conspiracy from down south/whitehall to bankrupt the Scottish nation.

Its more about emphasising differences than similarities and it is inherently saying you don't really like the Welsh,Northern Irish and English so you want them to piss off,since they are dragging you down. Actions speak very much loader than any words or any spin. You have made your choice.

Edit!!

Thats me done for the thread.

I hope you enjoy your independence and Scotland becomes the utopia promised by your politicians.

[george1979]

Oh dear CAT - there seems to be a very bitter tone to you argument/posts.
People aren't blaming the English for anything in my experience (or accusing them of stealing our money - no idea where that came from lol) and perhaps you should do a little less trawling thru anonymous internet comments on news posts. Not exactly known for, calm and reasoned discourse are they?
Over 5 million people and you tar them with them same brush due to some internet trolls?

You've obviously made you mind up about how all 5.3 million of us are thinking and that's that.

Brings to mind another quote, some along the lines of - 'if you can't change your mind how do you know you have one'.

Like I say if you do go, I hope it leads to changes for the better down south as well. Have a great day

[ik9000]

Oh dear CAT - there seems to be a very bitter tone to you argument/posts.
People aren't blaming the English for anything in my experience (or accusing them of stealing our money - no idea where that came from lol)

Well when we visit our family up there, we have encountered folk whose default is that England is the enemy, and that the English are still the bunch of pillagers just like the old days (conveniently overlooking the fact that Scotland was doing the same in reverse). It's frankly racist against the English and it is worrying that some people's decision will seemingly be based on that and that alone. That's not saying all Scots are like that, just as not all English are BNP, but just because you might be fortunate enough not to know any of them doesn't mean Cat is wrong in asserting that they exist.

[george1979]

Well when we visit our family up there, we have encountered folk whose default is that England is the enemy, and that the English are still the bunch of pillagers just like the old days (conveniently overlooking the fact that Scotland was doing the same in reverse). It's frankly racist against the English and it is worrying that some people's decision will seemingly be based on that and that alone. That's not saying all Scots are like that, just as not all English are BNP, but just because you might be fortunate enough not to know any of them doesn't mean Cat is wrong in asserting that they exist.

Of course they exist and I am unfortunate enough to have met some before but idiots come in all nationalities. My issue with Cat's post was that is tarred all of us with the same brush. That we are all mindless nationalists.
Equally there are many English who frequently spout racist nonsense, just today I saw a video of crowds chanting nonsense of this kind towards Scots, but I'm sensible enough to know that these are a minority of people (It was difficult to make out but I'm guessing it was a football match down south).
We also don't see news headlines up here that would be the equivalent of some of the ones I've seen down there saying Scots are a bunch of ungrateful benefit junkies or something similar. Even Nigel Farage said something along these lines on TV.
You reference a few nutters who've watched Braveheart one too many times but you don't see that attitude from our politicians or newspapers. You do south of the border and that is a racism I'd be far more worried about.

[adidan]

The latest poll puts around 20% of voters as undecided and yes/no pretty much level.

Let's face it, both sides have let the Scottish voters down by not going into detail exactly how it would happen and exactly how everything would change, from currency to business, to trade, to armed forces and so on.

Comparisons are often attempted to be made with Norway but they had kept their currency, armed forces and so on during their union with Sweden and their wise use of oil revenue puts them in a completely different situation to Scotland. When Norway had their vote they knew exactly what they were getting, hence why over 99% voted yes.

This vote is not going to be that conclusive and therefore whoever wins it will be a mess will nearly half the populace disgruntled. Perhaps it could have been moreso if both sides had done a better job of explaining what would happen, objectively. Most of the campaigning has been the general guff you hear around election time, but this is not an election - it's far more important.

Now the no camp are throwing all sorts Scotlands way, like 'oh you sort out your own income tax' and the like. Really? I'm sorry but can we in the North of England sort out our own as well seeing as we're far worse off than those down South? Don't think that will happen.

The Scottish referendum is for Scots but if the no camp keep throwing more things into the desperation pot I think the rest of the UK really should start having a say. There's more to the UK than Scotland.

So, perhaps, vote yes Scotland. Give it a go. Look to Norway for cooperation as you have a common interest and resource in the North Sea. You're starting from a completely different position to them but I for one would love to have a country like Norway, even with high taxes and high costs - if the benefits are worth it. If you can do it maybe the rest of us can follow rather than looking to the US for a disjointed society.

[The Hand]

To be honest, I think "Yes" vote might be the best thing for Scotland and the rUK, since if the "No" vote succeeds, they'll just be resentment from south of the border that Scotland is getting special treatment and resentment from Scots Nats, that dirty tricks/deals were played at the last minute after postal votes had been cast, to snatch victory.
The "No" vote has not-so-subtlety morphed into the "Devo Max" vote option overnight and after postal votes have been cast. Ironically this option was denied by Westminster a couple of years ago when the campaign started. There is no promise that Scotland will get this "Devo Max" type deal, if they vote "No".

Economically, Sterling will undoubtely take a severe beating in the markets if the "Yes" vote succeeds, but this will actually be a god send for exporters in Scotland(Scotch anyone? ) and the rUK, as Sterling bevalues against almost all major currencies.

If Scotland does vote "Yes", then I think there will be a general election in the rUK before Christmas, as I believe the current government won't hold together after the news since the daggers will be out for Cameron .. the PM who resided over the break-up of the Union.

[Saracen]

To be honest, I think "Yes" vote might be the best thing for Scotland and the rUK, since if the "No" vote succeeds, they'll just be resentment from south of the border that Scotland is getting special treatment and resentment from Scots Nats, that dirty tricks/deals were played at the last minute after postal votes had been cast, to snatch victory.
The "No" vote has not-so-subtlety morphed into the "Devo Max" vote option overnight and after postal votes have been cast. Ironically this option was denied by Westminster a couple of years ago when the campaign started. There is no promise that Scotland will get this "Devo Max" type deal, if they vote "No".

Economically, Stirling will undoubtely take a severe beating in the markets if the "Yes" vote succeeds, but this will actually be a god send for exporters in Scotland(Scotch anyone? ) and the rUK, as Stirling bevalues against almost all major currencies.

If Scotland does vote "Yes", then I think there will be a general election in the rUK before Christmas, as I believe the current government won't hold together after the news since the daggers will be out for Cameron .. the PM who resided over the break-up of the Union.

I'm inclined to pretty much agree with that, especially that the option appears to have very quietly gone from in/out, to devo-max/out.

Whatever happens in this vote, Scotland in or out, the constitutional applecart has already been upset, and the best option I can see for the future is a federal system, with Parliaments in Scotland, Wales, N.I. and England, and a SMALL federal Parliament overseeing those matters not devolved. And we ALL ought to get exactly the same level of devolution, whatever that ends up being. So, be it income tax rates, NHS spending, education policy, or whatever, if one 'nation' gets to decide that at national level, all do. Only those things that need to be decided at Federal level, should be.

Then, if Scotland wants to run schools one way, England a different way, Wales a third way and N.I. yet another way, they all can.

But, lf course, that's not an option now, and (unless Scotland votes no) it's sure too late to propose it now.

However, if Scotland does vote no, and the result is yet more devolution, then we HAVE to start looking seriously at the position of the other three nations, because in my view, one thing that is utterly untenable, after all this furore, is that if Scotland stays, if Westminster MPs for Scottish constituencies continue to be allowed to vote on matters that, by virtue of it being a devolved issue, don't apply in their constituencies. That is, sort out the WestLothian question, once and for all. Which, of course, a federal system would achieve.

Personally, I'm coming round to, somewhat reluctantly, being a yes supporter. And a supporter of independence for England, too. After all, if it's good enough for Scotland, why not for England, Wales and NI too?