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Thread: UK government spying on your webcams!

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    UK government spying on your webcams!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-26367781


    This is why I have my webcam unplugged (and turned around for good measure).

    Never trust the government, never trust politicians, never trust.

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    Re: UK government spying on your webcams!

    As do I, Chadders, and the cameras on my tablet are blocked.

    But ..... always-on Kinect??

    One reason for avoiding XBOne .... a risk of a permanent government spycam into your lounge, or maybe bedroom.

    This is ONE of the reasons I ruled out buying XBox One.

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    jim
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    Re: UK government spying on your webcams!

    I know nothing about how the Kinect works, but surely if you were concerned about privacy issues you could unplug it? Or if that's not possible, turn it around to face the wall?

    Personally, I wouldn't like the idea that I'd effectively paid extra for something I'd be unable to use, but that's a different issue altogether.

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    Re: UK government spying on your webcams!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chadders87 View Post
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-26367781


    This is why I have my webcam unplugged (and turned around for good measure).

    Never trust the government, never trust politicians, never trust.
    I don't see the need to have it unplugged and facing away. They aren't hacking your webcam and watching you when you least expect it, they are intercepting webcam chats.

    Mod edit: Swear-filtered text removed
    Last edited by jim; 28-02-2014 at 02:12 PM.

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    Re: UK government spying on your webcams!

    If they do the same with smart phones then some poor sod is having to look at a number of pictures of my face when I'm sat on the bog playing soduko/checking Hexus/similar. Good luck to them...

    If they really needed to hack people's private webcam sessions to work out that
    it would appear that a surprising number of people use webcam conversations to show intimate parts of their body to the other person
    then frankly they don't have the intelligence to be doing the job in the first place. The use of the 'net for so much porn shows that a lot of folk use the internet in just that way. Invading privacy is not necessary to be able to draw that conclusion. I wonder what it is exactly that they're looking for. It's the same as just blanket recording EVERYONE's phonecalls (which they've done for years) just with added visuals. It's the storing of the stuff that is way out. IIRC echelon was supposed to scan for keywords and only log stuff if flags got triggered. People who were specific targets were supposed to be more closely monitored and everything recorded after approval from a strict chain of command. In theory. IIRC Maggie spied on her own cabinet using Echelon via the Canadians... This sort of thing has been going on for yonks. I have no problem the security services monitoring stuff. I do have a problem with indiscriminate data collection and storing of private data on such a mass scale without good reason. That is just too far.

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    Re: UK government spying on your webcams!

    Quote Originally Posted by ik9000 View Post
    If they really needed to hack people's private webcam sessions to work out that then frankly they don't have the intelligence to be doing the job in the first place.
    To be fair, they said it was surprising, not that it was new to them. I fear it would probably surprise me as well.

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    Re: UK government spying on your webcams!

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    I know nothing about how the Kinect works, but surely if you were concerned about privacy issues you could unplug it? Or if that's not possible, turn it around to face the wall?

    Personally, I wouldn't like the idea that I'd effectively paid extra for something I'd be unable to use, but that's a different issue altogether.
    On XBox 360, yes you could.

    On XBOne, it's built-in, and (unless MS changed the design criteria at the last minute) always-on.

    I suppose you could always turn the entire XBO to face the wall, or physically unplug power, but that's a nuisance, all because of a facility that used to be an optional extra (that I didn't want) to one that's built-in, included in the price, and that puts a camera in your home?

    Each to his own, but for me, that's enough to rule out XBO. On at least a couple of grounds.

    First, a camera in my home with limited abiluty to control it, I.e. I can't choose when it's turned on. Domestic CCTV security cameras are not connected to the web, losing me the ability to view remotely, or store images remotely, for the same reason.

    Second, they jacked the price by including something I didn't want. I had that argument years ago with a BMW dealer. When I considered replacing an M3, it turned out the new one had aircon, which I didn't want, but it was "free". Of course, the car it was "free" in had gone up by over £5k, but the aircon was "free" .... and yes, that actualky is a direct quote.

    I couldn't, I was told, even have it removed as a delete option, but the dealer could, for a price, take it out after delivery. So I ended paying heavily for a "feature" I actively didn't want, then get to pay again to remove it.

    Instead, I didn't buy the car. Or the XBOne.

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    Re: UK government spying on your webcams!

    Quote Originally Posted by ik9000 View Post
    If they do the same with smart phones then some poor sod is having to look at a number of pictures of my face when I'm sat on the bog playing soduko/checking Hexus/similar. Good luck to them...

    If they really needed to hack people's private webcam sessions to work out that then frankly they don't have the intelligence to be doing the job in the first place. The use of the 'net for so much porn shows that a lot of folk use the internet in just that way. Invading privacy is not necessary to be able to draw that conclusion. I wonder what it is exactly that they're looking for. It's the same as just blanket recording EVERYONE's phonecalls (which they've done for years) just with added visuals. It's the storing of the stuff that is way out. IIRC echelon was supposed to scan for keywords and only log stuff if flags got triggered. People who were specific targets were supposed to be more closely monitored and everything recorded after approval from a strict chain of command. In theory. IIRC Maggie spied on her own cabinet using Echelon via the Canadians... This sort of thing has been going on for yonks. I have no problem the security services monitoring stuff. I do have a problem with indiscriminate data collection and storing of private data on such a mass scale without good reason. That is just too far.
    I sympathise, but as I undersrand it, that isn't quite what was happening, or at least, alleged to be happening. From what I could make out, snapshot images about every 5 minutes were grabbed, at metadata analysed looking for matches with targets. Only then was it referred to analysts. There apparently was discussion of using facial recognition software, matched to FR data of known targets, to pre-select data for referral.

    Personally, I 'm a LOT less bothered about government and intelligence services using such methodology to hunt terrorists, etc, than I am about commercial organisations using similar capabilities just to market/advertise to me, when I explicitly don't want to be marketed to or advertised at, and CERTAINLY not using targeted ads based on data that company collects on me.

    I don't really much care if GCHQ have my face (or, were I stupid enough to put it on webcam, which I'm not, other bits of me) on file, but I most adamantly object if MS, Google, Tesco, etc, do.

    And if government agencies are at it, I'd bet it won't be long before companies are, though I'd point out I mean privacy-intrusive collection of facial images and FR analysis, not (illegally) intercepting web cam data.

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    Re: UK government spying on your webcams!

    The XB1 works without kinect if you want it to, it was one of the u-turns and the requirement was patched out in the day1 update.

    not that it makes buying an X1 a clever idea...

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    Re: UK government spying on your webcams!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_B View Post
    The XB1 works without kinect if you want it to, it was one of the u-turns and the requirement was patched out in the day1 update.

    not that it makes buying an X1 a clever idea...
    But I have an inate distrust of how things are put. It comes from listening carefully to politicians.

    Re: the car aircon analogy, I could use the new M3 without turning the aircon on, but it's still there, and I'm still paying for it.

    If I cannot physically turn it off, and/or disconnect Kinect, then "XBO works without" doesn't actually say that Kinect is disabled and not functioning. It could, for instance, simply be that games don't react to it. It doesn't mean the camera is turned off. For something like a camera in my home, that's of good enough. If I can't disconnect it, I'm not putting it in my home. In kinect's case, I don't want it, and personally, am NOT paying for it.

    If MS come up with an XBO-Lite that is, first, Kinect-less, and second, otherwise acceptable to me at an acceptable price, I'll revisit the buying decision. But I have no real interest in having, much less paying for Kinect, and unless it's detachable BY ME, it's not going in my house.

    Anyway, this is getting a bit off-topic. Back on-topic, the webcam issue is part of the picture, but other adpects, like Kinect either are, or will be, soon enough.

    There are three possible futures.

    1) Secure, encrypted services for all such tech.
    2) Don't use such tech.
    3) Loss of any real privacy becomes the norm.

    As most people either don't seem to care, or don't bother to think about it at all, I'm betting on 3). I'll do all I can to minimise it, especially by corporates, but there's no avoiding it entirely.

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    Re: UK government spying on your webcams!

    You don't need to plug it in Saracen, so you're one step closer

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    Re: UK government spying on your webcams!

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post

    There are three possible futures.

    1) Secure, encrypted services for all such tech.
    2) Don't use such tech.
    3) Loss of any real privacy becomes the norm.

    As most people either don't seem to care, or don't bother to think about it at all, I'm betting on 3). I'll do all I can to minimise it, especially by corporates, but there's no avoiding it entirely.
    LOL @1 secure for how long?
    2) probably what I'll end up doing eventually
    3) sadly i share your sentiment. Only once it's far too late will people realise their mistake, if at all, but by then it will be too late. Privacy and freedom. Will they even get taught about in the future? Who knows.

    Anyone remember Demolition Man? How they have that regularized (and sanitized) society.... eep.

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    Re: UK government spying on your webcams!

    Quote Originally Posted by ik9000 View Post
    LOL @1 secure for how long?

    ....
    Well, we don't know.

    Part of the Snowden allegations are stories about either cracking some current encryption methodologies, or at least, serious, heavyweight, high-powered and very well-financed attempts to do so.

    I would put money on :-

    1) Such attempts have been made, and

    2) NSA/GCHQ aren't the only ones trying. I'd bet other major state players, at least the likes of China, Russia, Israel etc are at it, and I'd bet others are too, and

    3) IF any such attempts have been successful, THAT will be among the most closely-guarded of state secrets.

    So, we may safely assume they've tried, but have no way to know if they have succeeded, and probably never will.

    The only way to be sure of privacy over such services, most definitely including not just webcams but email, etc, is don't use them for anything you care to keep private. I've been using email encryption for private, personal or financial matters for, oh, 20 years-ish. I'm reasonably confident, but by no means 100% so.

    Ir's a bit like home security. If you implement basic measures like good locks, not leaving windows open or doors unlocked, secure ladders and tools, etc, maybe security lighting and perhaps alarms, CCTV, etc, you can certainly prevent/deter casual thieves, but anyone determined enough can burgle you. You can prevent most burglars, but cannot be sure to prevent them all.

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    Re: UK government spying on your webcams!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooms View Post
    I don't see the need to have it unplugged and facing away. They aren't hacking your webcam and watching you when you least expect it, they are intercepting webcam chats.
    Sure, that's all they've admitted to so far.... but if they are willing to intercept, then nothing is stopping them from simply gaining access and snooping. They have already established that "morals" are infact an old wives tale over at GCHQ.

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    Re: UK government spying on your webcams!

    I get the idea that governments/corporations are just using slack, out of date laws to explain their position. We think, 'who cares what I say/do?', but to them it's an open intelligence source. Only if an anomoly shows up will they focus in on your life(you've seen Enemy of the State!). Do we start using our own encryption, or do we force governments to change the law?

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    Re: UK government spying on your webcams!

    I have to say, the 'storing' of the images is quite disturbing. Thankfully my paranoia has had me in the habit of sticking post-it notes over my built in webcam for a long time...

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