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Thread: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by OilSheikh View Post
    Would you like a whole forum for yourself ?
    Uncalled for OilSheikh. If nothing else he is allowed to create and add to threads like everyone else. Considering this is a massive international event it's even less remarkable.

    Personally, I'm keeping an eye on the events, and it's nice to have one place where different people contribute their findings.

    Either way, it's nice to have the freedom to bash this one back and forth. If Putin gets a hold of it he will have it all for himself.
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    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by OilSheikh View Post
    Would you like a whole forum for yourself ?
    Trust me if I wanted to spam every single story I would, and if you are not interested then why did you click the thread link and take the trouble to post? seems strange.

    I'm simply keeping people informed of some of the latest major news and some of the lesser theories springing up, as and when they happen. For example I posted about the Russian Special Forces guy on 16th, 6 days later the same guys picture is on Newsnight.

    You might not like what I write, but I don't really care, until a mod tells me to stop posting I will carry on. I feel it's my duty... to try and inform as many people as possible about what Putin is doing in Ukraine, and how he is the biggest threat to the world since Hitler.

    I'm not as tactful or patient as people would like, but I am telling it how it is.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    some more links / stories

    600 US troops to Eastern Europe
    http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/cris...urope-23431968

    USS Taylor to backup USS Donald Cook in the Black Sea. (not sue about USS Mount Whitney)
    http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=80507


    Russian media lock-down continues to tighten.
    VK / Vkontakte founder (Russian facebook copy) flees after refusing to release user data
    http://bluemarbletimes.com/archives/...source=twitter

    Skype and gmail could face a Russian ban.
    http://translate.google.com/translat...-text=&act=url

    Crimean Tatar TV station to be censored in Crimea, (comes after their leader was exiled from Crimea)
    http://euromaidanpr.com/2014/04/22/r...mean-tatar-tv/
    http://windowoneurasia2.blogspot.co....ars-under.html

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    ........I'm not as tactful or patient as people would like, but I am telling it how it is.
    No, what you are doing is telling it from what appears to be a Ukrainian Nationalist viewpoint, whereby any kind of dissent or alternative viewpoint is dismissed out of hand. If that's what floats your boat, I've no problem with that really, but don't try and kid me that what you offer is a fair and balanced view. I don't buy it, and nor do many others on here, I suspect.

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    The late but legendary peterb - Onward and Upward peterb's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Given that the whole situation is now the focus of international diplomatic effort, and widespread news coverage, I am wondering if there is any more merit in this thread? The situation in Ukraine is reported on an almost daily basis.

    A diplomatic solution will inevitably be some sort of compromise - the status quo as it was three months ago is not going to be restored - at least not in the foreseeable future.
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    Given that the whole situation is now the focus of international diplomatic effort, and widespread news coverage, I am wondering if there is any more merit in this thread? The situation in Ukraine is reported on an almost daily basis.

    A diplomatic solution will inevitably be some sort of compromise - the status quo as it was three months ago is not going to be restored - at least not in the foreseeable future.
    I don't mind discussion, but if the thread is just one person posting after themselves then it's not much discussion. Forum ettiquette is usually to edit ones own post to add more information, not create another post - this way it's easier for others to see the thread of the conversation and join in.

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    Grumpy and VERY old :( g8ina's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    I am also inclined to think that the thread has run it's useful course. We can all see the news and read the papers if we want any more updates. It does seem to have settled into one persons blog. Sorry.
    Cheers, David



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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by opel80uk View Post
    No, what you are doing is telling it from what appears to be a Ukrainian Nationalist viewpoint, whereby any kind of dissent or alternative viewpoint is dismissed out of hand. If that's what floats your boat, I've no problem with that really, but don't try and kid me that what you offer is a fair and balanced view. I don't buy it, and nor do many others on here, I suspect.
    So you are still sticking to that point of view.

    The UN (United Nations Human Rights Council) has slated the Russian point of view, as has the OSCE. Yet you still buy it.

    The world has almost universally condemned the Russian perspective as fabrication and contrary to true events. Yet you still buy it.

    I suspect, many on here reading this can see through the Russian lies, just you, Nigel Farage and a few hard liners seem to buy the Russian propaganda. They keep coming up with more and more outlandish claims, yet you still buy it.

    "Pro-Putin Protesters in Moscow this weekend" (they all shop at the same clothes store apparently)

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    To be fair the situation hasn't completely died down and is not entirely diplomatic. The US have sent troops to Europe. There are clear signs that Russia have agents on the ground, a politician has been killed and the threat of force from the Ukraine is heating up again against the "pro-russian" groups occupying different Ukrainian locations.

    It might not be of full interest to everyone any more, but I'd say the situation hasn't died down. A whole region has been annexed and a sovereign territory arguably infiltrated. Were it not that Putin has to test the waters I can easily believe he would have marched right into the Ukraine.

    It's possible to argue that he is destabilising eastern Ukraine to cement his takeover of the Crimea - essentially pushing the firm border so that a push back into Crimea is impossible. International moves, though, suggest the possibility of something more significant. And to me, when a nation as large as Russia starts throwing its weight around, it's of interest.

    The fact j1979 posted the "From Russia With Love" photos in here well before the mainstream media distributed them, was of note to me too.

    j1979 might be biased, but as per the rules of Bulverism, any influence of his bias can only be analysed once the truth of premise has been established or refuted. That is, he might be biased, but that doesn't necessarily make him wrong - or right. Throughout this whole incident I've never once heard a convincing defense of the Russian 'side of things'.
    Last edited by Galant; 23-04-2014 at 01:48 PM.
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by g8ina View Post
    I am also inclined to think that the thread has run it's useful course. We can all see the news and read the papers if we want any more updates. It does seem to have settled into one persons blog. Sorry.
    My job here is done, the world has backed up my version of events, since I started posting in December, more and more of Putin's lies have been exposed.

    Human rights groups have universally congratulated the new Ukrainian government on it's massive progress since it took over in February as well as expressing deep concerns about the dire situation in Crimea / East Ukraine.

    Only a few people remain that still think Putin is on their side and fighting their corner, simply because he is sticking a finger up to the current world order of the EU, NATO, UN and US. The Russian attempt at media lock-down will continue, voices will be silenced, true stories will be watered down by the Russian FUD and some people will continue to buy it.

    It's only the biggest world event since 9/11 and probably bigger. But if Hexus want to close the thread due to one sided activity, then fine, but it's only one sided due to the fact it reflects the real world, the evidence is one sided, there is no credible Russian argument to invade, occupy and annex parts another country. People that support the Russian point of view can't find credible evidence to backup these Russian claims, therefore we end up with a one sided forum thread.

    But the situation is far from over, and it will escalate further. This thread is part of the history that will record it, and from that perspective it is valuable, to keep it open.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    saw on reuters yesterday a fire bomb attack against a jewish synagogue , and the letters being given to east Ukraine jews - forced registration etc.

    does Russia really want to start a fight with Israel? the jewish state will use its nukes if it comes to it.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    So you are still sticking to that point of view.

    The UN (United Nations Human Rights Council) has slated the Russian point of view, as has the OSCE. Yet you still buy it.

    The world has almost universally condemned the Russian perspective as fabrication and contrary to true events. Yet you still buy it.

    I suspect, many on here reading this can see through the Russian lies, just you, Nigel Farage and a few hard liners seem to buy the Russian propaganda. They keep coming up with more and more outlandish claims, yet you still buy it.

    "Pro-Putin Protesters in Moscow this weekend" (they all shop at the same clothes store apparently)
    No, you're missing the point.

    By saying you're putting it from one perspective, he's NOT saying he buys the other point of view. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.

    That's what's wound a lot of people up in this thread, is that immediately someone doesn't take the Ukrainian nationalist line hook, line and sinker, you immediately go on the attack.

    About the one thing that seems clear to me, and pretty much indisputable, is that cold, hard, independently verifiable FACTS are pretty hard to come by .... as is the case in just about every war scenario, for example.

    But being sceptical about one point of view doesn't mean you accept the other. I have reservations about some of the claims of the Ukrainian nationalist perspective .... and a LOT of doubts about where the line in the Pro-Russian side is truth, and where it is active disinformation.

    Similarly, over the years (decades) I listened to 'claims' of both sides in Northern Ireland, but because I don't, and never have, lived there, it's hard to decide which set of diametrically opposed claims you find most credible.

    Ultimately, Ukraine (or at least, some parts of it) seem to have lots of people that are Pro-Russian, and they aren't all special forces or agitators. Though, from what I can tell, there are very likely, if not certainly, a fair few of those too.

    By being sceptical about one side, it does NOT imply you accept or support the view of the other. And that's what's winding a lot of people here up. The situation is simply not clear black and white. Personally, there is NO justification in my view for Russian intrusion into Crimea, let alone anywhere else in Ukraine. It's a sovereign country. But then, so was Iraq, Libya, Syria and a host of others, and it hasn't stopped various Western powers from deciding it's "justified" to go in with military power .... and FAR more bloodily in several of those instances than Russia has managed.

    Personally, I'm FAR more inclined to the Ukrainian viewpoint than the Russian one, BUT .... there are people, including quite a lot in Crimea and less but still a lot in Eastern Ukraine, that are actively Pro-Russian. So be guarded about accepting everything about the Ukrainian Nationalistic position certainly doesn't mean I'm buying Putin's spin. Far from it. But nor do I buy everything from the Ukrainian perspective either, not least because a lot of both sides is easy to claim, and much harder to prove.

    That (as I read it) is Opel's point .... if you are 100% one on side, you aren't putting an objective, balanced case. You're putting one side, and as I've said right from the start of this thread, there is more than one viewpoint. Being aware of more than one way of looking at it doesn't mean I accept, or reject, EITHER.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    So you are still sticking to that point of view.

    The UN (United Nations Human Rights Council) has slated the Russian point of view, as has the OSCE. Yet you still buy it.

    The world has almost universally condemned the Russian perspective as fabrication and contrary to true events. Yet you still buy it.

    I suspect, many on here reading this can see through the Russian lies, just you, Nigel Farage and a few hard liners seem to buy the Russian propaganda. They keep coming up with more and more outlandish claims, yet you still buy it.
    Again, and I think you have quite succinctly shown why this has turned primarily, into a one man blog, as nowhere have I said that I buy anything. Do I think that Putin and Russia are engaged in propaganda? Of course I do. Do I believe that Russian armed forces were not involved the annexing of Chimera? Not in the slightest. But I’m also not so naïve to believe that the West would not also be engaged in propaganda either, or that the EU would not use this as an opportunity to further its own agenda. That’s just the way world works; it wasn’t that long ago that the West was cosying up to Stalin when it was in its own interests.

    You accuse anyone of even considering the Russian point of view as ‘buying Russian propaganda’, which is, if I may say so, a somewhat childlike attitude. You keep harping on about Putin and Hitler, but anyone with even a vague interest in history will know that it was precisely the dismissive attitude that others had towards Germany that enabled someone like Hitler to seize power in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    To be fair the situation hasn't completely died down and is not entirely diplomatic. The US have sent troops to Europe. There are clear signs that Russia have agents on the ground, a politician has been killed and the threat of force from the Ukraine is heating up again against the "pro-russian" groups occupying different Ukrainian locations.

    It might not be of full interest to everyone any more, but I'd say the situation hasn't died down. A whole region has been annexed and a sovereign territory arguably infiltrated. Were it not that Putin has to test the waters I can easily believe he would have marched right into the Ukraine.

    It's possible to argue that he is destabilising eastern Ukraine to cement his takeover of the Crimea - essentially pushing the firm border so that a push back into Crimea is impossible. International moves, though, suggest the possibility of something more significant. And to me, when a nation as large as Russia starts throwing its weight around, it's of interest.

    The fact j1979 posted the "From Russia With Love" photos in here well before the mainstream media distributed them, was of note to me too.

    j1979 might be biased, but as per the rules of Bulverism, any influence of his bias can only be analysed once the truth of premise has been established or refuted. That is, he might be biased, but that doesn't necessarily make him wrong - or right. Throughout this whole incident I've never once heard a convincing defense of the Russian 'side of things'.
    You have, interestingly, left out the part of a (deemed fairly by observers) elected government being overthrown in circumstances that would, if had happened in any Western democracy, deemed the incoming government illegitimate, yet the West recognises it. Now, throw in that a large percentage of the country is ethnically Russian, and that members of far-right, anti-Russian parties have been installed in cabinet, and you have a slightly different complexion. Again, if this were to happen in say Britian, we would be up in arms. Does any of this mean that I am supporting or excusing Putin? Of course not. j1979 may well be proved, in the future, right or wrong about the facts, but he is wrong to dismiss anyone that tries to look at the Russian point of view as either a Russian sympathiser, supporter, or someone falling for propaganda. I suggest it's that attitude that has effectively turned this thread into less of a discussion, and more of one persons biased ramblings.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by g8ina View Post
    It does seem to have settled into one persons blog. Sorry.
    For what it's worth, doesn't Hexus threads about "personal projects" alone? Personally I do not have a problem if this is bumped every few days (with updates in between conducted via edits). It's a story I probably follow less than I should given the importance, and whenever I do, I only check mainstream news like BBC and CNN and take a glance here for what I expect to be an alternative view from someone who, while likely biased, also put a lot more effort into digging up news than I can be bothered. Besides, just because there is not a whole lot anyone has to say of the events as they are developing right now, it doesn't mean that it won't happen eventually. At worst, I'd be inclined to see it shifted to "Question Time". But the way I see it, this forum does not move that quickly anyway so I never really feel like the act of bumping this thread is making me miss a story by making it move to the next page. *shrug* Basically it's not a thread I will miss (there have been other, personally more entertaining thread which I found regretful that mods decide to close), nor one that bothers me particularly to keep alive.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by opel80uk View Post
    Again, and I think you have quite succinctly shown why this has turned primarily, into a one man blog, as nowhere have I said that I buy anything. Do I think that Putin and Russia are engaged in propaganda? Of course I do. Do I believe that Russian armed forces were not involved the annexing of Chimera? Not in the slightest. But I’m also not so naïve to believe that the West would not also be engaged in propaganda either, or that the EU would not use this as an opportunity to further its own agenda. That’s just the way world works; it wasn’t that long ago that the West was cosying up to Stalin when it was in its own interests.

    You accuse anyone of even considering the Russian point of view as ‘buying Russian propaganda’, which is, if I may say so, a somewhat childlike attitude. You keep harping on about Putin and Hitler, but anyone with even a vague interest in history will know that it was precisely the dismissive attitude that others had towards Germany that enabled someone like Hitler to seize power in the first place.




    You have, interestingly, left out the part of a (deemed fairly by observers) elected government being overthrown in circumstances that would, if had happened in any Western democracy, deemed the incoming government illegitimate, yet the West recognises it. Now, throw in that a large percentage of the country is ethnically Russian, and that members of far-right, anti-Russian parties have been installed in cabinet, and you have a slightly different complexion. Again, if this were to happen in say Britian, we would be up in arms. Does any of this mean that I am supporting or excusing Putin? Of course not. j1979 may well be proved, in the future, right or wrong about the facts, but he is wrong to dismiss anyone that tries to look at the Russian point of view as either a Russian sympathiser, supporter, or someone falling for propaganda. I suggest it's that attitude that has effectively turned this thread into less of a discussion, and more of one persons biased ramblings.

    My ramblings as you call it are backed up and supported by reports issued by the UN human rights council and OECD.

    OilSheikh, asked me to answer how many have been killed in Crimea since Russian invasion. Well, how many were killed before invasion.

    Russian case should be baked up with some facts. But facts are thin on the ground. Some people want to stand up to my argument because the words i write don't fit with the left wing (UK US EU are the enemy) narrative. I agree there were no WMD's in iraq & afgan, libya was a bad idea. But i feel it's time for unity and over time most people will unite over this common foe. The parallels and similarities with build up to WW2 are there.

    I understand why people are arguing the opposite to me, and that social media etc is flooded with the bad things happening in Kiev. As the UN and OECD have concluded there is an element of truth in these stories, however they have asserted these events are "neither widespread nor significant" they go on to assert that Russian version of events are simply their native, based very little on fact.

    As for Yanuchoytch, read the UN and OECD reports on Ukraine, him and his government. Also please understand that he signed an agreement to share power and the next day he fled.

    Ukraine's "Right Sector" are not in power, they are not in the government, they have never been in the government, and whats more they have left the Dnipro Hotel in Kiev. This is why I find it frustrating. Facts reported are quite often not fact. Russia report the whole Kiev government are Nazi's.

    When versions of the Russian story make their way to Hexus, I just despair, that this Ruski diatribe, makes it out as fact, when there is only a shred of truth. There are plenty of outlandish ideas and stories coming out of west Ukraine... I choose not to add them to the thread because, they are not credible.

    also, please take a look at the so called Right Sector convoy that killed 3 unarmed people from a group of 10 in sloviansk. Their cars were totally burned out, except for the number plates. strange that.

    I understand why some people detest me. Because I will dismiss out of hand, arguments that are seeded from Russian sources, because unfortunately there is no free press in Russia. I trusted Vice news's Simon Ostrovsky 100% he was risking it all, to show the rest of the world what is happening. He's now missing (pro-russians) say he's safe and working with them.

    Like i said before journalists that find out information that could seriously damage Russia's version of events, are under extreme risk.

    In my opinion, In the same way Germany should have been totally defeated in WW1 to avoid the follow on that became WW2. The follow on of that was the cold war, and USSR was never defeated it just collapsed due to financial pressure, and was in turn humiliated. Many, many people in the Russian Federation blame America for everything, many people including Putin want to rebuild the USSR bit by bit. There are only 2 outcomes, either Putin loses power or they keep pushing until there is a NATO tipping point.

    We are on a collision course with Putin's Russia, I think this thread should show more solidarity with the Ukrainians, because they are seriously under the cosh, and they will soon be dying for there freedom.

    Ukraine matters, the Ukrainians matter and they are being painted by some as the bad guys and aggressors. It's not true and plain wrong IMHO.

    I think we should all be fighting the same corner, I am sure we will soon, as more and more truths come to light.


    EDIT:

    I also, find it hard to understand why people see a nationalistic west Ukraine as anything but inevitable. They have been suppressed for centuries. The Ukrainians have been under the Russian thumb. East, West they all just want a chance to choose there own destiny. All the trouble in the east Russian funded, Russian orchestrated, and is conducted by a percentage of Russian citizens and Russian special forces.

    I actually think the very far right in Ukraine is surprisingly low given the circumstances.

    There are no special rights for Ukrainians in Russia. There is a Ukrainian saying for people that want the USSR back, "Suitcase, Station, Train". Let them break free. let them choose in their own elections, with the new constitution in May. But Russia can't and won't let this election go smoothly. Like I said in December, they will throw as many spanners in the works as possible and if that does not work they will go to war and if they can get away with it ethnically cleanse east Ukraine.


    2nd EDIT:

    Russia testing all kinds of reactions at the moment. UK, Denmark and Netherlands all scrambled jets to intercept the Russian bombers. Why don't the BBC report these events? Scared of the reaction, I guess.

    http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/2532077...#axzz2zjMKwvBR


    More on U.S. Journalist Simon Ostrovsky
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ournalist.html
    Last edited by j1979; 23-04-2014 at 06:33 PM.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    Russia testing all kinds of reactions at the moment. UK, Denmark and Netherlands all scrambled jets to intercept the Russian bombers. Why don't the BBC report these events? Scared of the reaction, I guess.

    http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/2532077...#axzz2zjMKwvBR


    More on U.S. Journalist Simon Ostrovsky
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ournalist.html
    sometimes you have to let governments govern.......

    if you dislike it you leave the country and go elsewhere.. or you march out with a banner.

    but sometimes to not scare the masses is better that telling everyone everything.

    I'm of a mind to agree that this is now news page and not a discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Advice Trinity by Knoxville
    "The second you aren't paying attention to the tool you're using, it will take your fingers from you. It does not know sympathy." |
    "If you don't gaffer it, it will gaffer you" | "Belt and braces"

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