Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

[opel80uk]

And my view point is different to yours, and you are doing exactly the same as me, by saying my view is wrong. How is my arguing, any different from your arguing of the point? I am reading what you write and responding with counter arguments. That makes it somewhat hypocritical on your part. Just as I won't submit to your points, you won't submit to mine. it's six of one and half a dozen of the other.

You’ve missed the point, again. I don’t mind at all you saying that viewpoint is wrong, that is perfectly valid. What I object to, and what I have not done, is your assumption that, because I question some of the pro Ukrainian claims and try to look at it from the Russian view, that it amounts to support for Russia’s actions. I have said, numerous times, I do not support Russia’s actions, and in fact disagree with them, but I can understand them. Support and understanding are 2 very different things.

I don't know your definition of a Nazi like party. Can you clarify it for me please?

Why are you asking me the definition of a Nazi like party? I never, as far as I remember, mentioned the Nazi’s when talking about Svoboda - you did, and have seemingly convinced yourself that I must have too. I said that they were a far-right party, which they are. My definition of a far right party is pretty much the same that can be found on Wikipedia:

……usually involve support for social inequality and social hierarchy, elements of social conservatism, and opposition to most forms of liberalism and socialism. Both terms are commonly used to describe fascist, neo-fascist or other ideologies and organizations that feature extreme nationalist, chauvinist, xenophobic, racist, or reactionary views.

After researching the party, I think they tick a lot of those boxes.

But after the collapse of the Soviet Union, more pressure should have been put on Moscow to give independence to people / distinct groups who wanted it. For example Chechnya, It's now full of Putin's puppets that claim to die for Allah and fight for Putin, but it was very different before he ethnically cleansed it. Areas that were historically Japanese like Karafuto, Kuril Islands, and areas disputed by other nations along it's boarders.

That’s a valid point, although I think it may have been asking a bit much of Russia at that time, and also stored up a lot of problems for the future, as we’ve seen in Georgia and now Ukraine. But it does lead me to ask you this – If there was a fully observed referendum, and it was deemed fair and free by those international observers, for the East of Ukraine to join Russia, would you support it and the outcome?

You have stopped discussing about, most of my views, and as you are not coming back with any arguments I presume, you now have conceded most of my other points…….

I’m not sure what I have conceded. Some of your points I agree with, and did from the start, others I do not. I certainly do not buy a lot of, what appears to me at least, the pro-Ukrainian propaganda you post. Again, that is NOT to say that I support Russia, or that I do not think Russia are engaged in their own propaganda campaign. Of course they are.

…. and you are now simply focusing on if Svoboda is a racist far right party

I don’t think, if you read all of my posts, that that is all I have done, but you have spent a lot of time trying to suggest that they are not. I am merely responding to that assertion. And there’s no ‘if’ in my mind.

You have already stated you think they are all a bunch of Far-right extremists. I think you judge them by a different set of rules.

A different set of rules to whom?

As for the Euro-vision representative, we will need to agree to differ. With a black population of less then 0.01% It's hardly representative of Ukrainian Culture.

My understanding was that the singer was born to a Ukrainian mother and an African father. Are you suggesting that because she is not entirely Ukrainian, she cannot be considered ‘representative of Ukrainian Culture’?

If you deny them to speak out against this (without calling them racist) then well, you need to take a look at your own views imho. Someone who thinks that, this is racist, is living in the thought police, political correctness bubble that exists in the UK.

Firstly, I would never deny anyone the right the express their views, even if I thought they were deplorable. But, I categorically would state that suggesting a singer should not represent, or is not representative of, the land of her and her mother’s birth, simply because the singer has an African father and/or is black IS racist. Perhaps it is political correctness – it’s interesting how many times I have heard Nick Griffin and other far right nut jobs use that exact same accusation whenever they are spouting their racist nonsense.

Also you only have to go to Italy, southern Spain, Greece, Turkey, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania parts of Germany, Denmark, Poland and even France these days to see exactly the same behavior. As for football hooligans, the ones in Lazio are probably the worlds worst.

We are going very off topic, but as someone who has been all over Europe, following a team that has always had black players, by far the worst are the Eastern European countries, though I must say I have never been to Ukraine. After watching matches on telly, and reading

I was really asking you what your point is about the Ukraine / Russia situation.

Because Russia say that Svoboda are anti-semetic and that is the threat. You say they are far-right, and that is a threat to who exactly? How in your mind does Svobada having 3 seats in the government effect the situation in Ukraine? The whole of the EU is littered with far left and far right political parties. How does it make Ukraine any different?

What makes this (far-right) party as you call it a threat to Russia or anyone else?

I’m not saying that the far right party are a threat to Russia. I am saying that, given that almost 20% of the Ukrainian population identify themselves as Ethnically Russian, and that Svoboda have expressed quite extreme anti-Russian views, and now make up part of the Government, that a) it gives those ethnic Russians valid concerns, and b) it gives Russia an excuse to further their own agenda in the areas with large ethnic Russian populations. Again, me stating this does not mean I support Russia’s actions in the East, I do not.

[j1979]

You’ve missed the point, again. I don’t mind at all you saying that viewpoint is wrong, that is perfectly valid. What I object to, and what I have not done, is your assumption that, because I question some of the pro Ukrainian claims and try to look at it from the Russian view, that it amounts to support for Russia’s actions. I have said, numerous times, I do not support Russia’s actions, and in fact disagree with them, but I can understand them. Support and understanding are 2 very different things.

This ongoing, back and forth is just outlining our differences rather than the point you are making. Your view point I see as a little strange, and does show some Kremlin bias, even if you don't see it yourself. I will explain why I think this.

Why are you asking me the definition of a Nazi like party? I never, as far as I remember, mentioned the Nazi’s when talking about Svoboda - you did, and have seemingly convinced yourself that I must have too. I said that they were a far-right party, which they are. My definition of a far right party is pretty much the same that can be found on Wikipedia:

……usually involve support for social inequality and social hierarchy, elements of social conservatism, and opposition to most forms of liberalism and socialism. Both terms are commonly used to describe fascist, neo-fascist or other ideologies and organizations that feature extreme nationalist, chauvinist, xenophobic, racist, or reactionary views.

After researching the party, I think they tick a lot of those boxes.

I asked the question because, many people see a extremist far-right party and a Nazi-like party as the same. So in calling a party "far-right" so are calling them nazi like. It doesn't really matter.

As for Svobada, i don't see them as a far-right party, or a nazi party. I see the as a political party with some far-right views. They are strongly opposed to any Russian influence in Ukraine, and they appeal to those that identify more closely with Poland than Russia.

That’s a valid point, although I think it may have been asking a bit much of Russia at that time, and also stored up a lot of problems for the future, as we’ve seen in Georgia and now Ukraine. But it does lead me to ask you this – If there was a fully observed referendum, and it was deemed fair and free by those international observers, for the East of Ukraine to join Russia, would you support it and the outcome?

Fair and valid points about Russian territory. As for a referendum. My view is this, the future should be decided by the people, and the majority should get to decided on their future but minorities in whatever area also need to have their rights protected (if they are genuine human rights). It makes the situation difficult to achieve. I would support the results if it were done fairly, not behind enemy lines with no guns, and both sides media, where forced to say, which of their propaganda had been falsified or exaggerated. India or Yugoslavia type split, would be very bad.. there will be massive upheaval and massive human rights issues, if this were to happen.

So in answer to your question yes, I would support it in theory but, in practical terms though it's almost impossible to reach that goal. I also think that, in Donbas and Lugansk oblasts there is a small chance of a Russian win, outside of these oblasts it's highly unlikely. After all, under these conditions a fair referendum in Crimea would have been very close IMHO, based on population demographics and previous opinion polls.

I’m not sure what I have conceded.

Well, ok you just did not come back with responses. so we will leave it there.

Some of your points I agree with, and did from the start, others I do not. I certainly do not buy a lot of, what appears to me at least, the pro-Ukrainian propaganda you post. Again, that is NOT to say that I support Russia, or that I do not think Russia are engaged in their own propaganda campaign. Of course they are.

The Ukrainian propaganda, this is my point.
There are plenty of Ukrainian stories out there that are totally unfounded, and have no basis in truth. I choose not to post these stories. I am only posting stories that have some credibility and in most cases come from multiple sources. I am trying really hard not to post something that is FUD. If a story is a maybe, I will present it as such.

And one of my points is that many negative stories about Ukrainians, quite often do come from multiple sources, but Russian media is not as free as Ukrainian media, and many of the multiple sources are in fact coming from various Kremlin funded places. The world is being bombarded with negative stories about Ukraine, the political parties, the government and the legality of the situation.

If a lie is repeated several times, from several sources it becomes true.

For a party to become popular and win votes, the people either shift towards the parties views or the party needs to shift to the center. So if you take your point of view the growth in popularity of Svoboda either reflects that the population have become far right extremists or reflects my point of view that Svoboda have moved closer to the centre.

Now I don't see a huge shift to the far right in Ukraine. What I see a population that are totally sick and tired of Putin and the Russians with the superiority complex, where the average Russian sees the average Ukrainian as a second class citizen. I see that the people of Ukraine want to make a clean break from this snooty, paranoid, manipulative and aggressive nation.

I see a country that wants to break free from this, and Svoboda party is one of the stronger ways to show this. I also see that Svoboda have brought themselves more mainstream to reach the status quo. In more dramatic way but similar to what UKIP is trying this here.

To call a party's a far-right party is different to a party with some members that have far right views. Is UKIP trying to genuinely change, or are they trying to hide their true colors. Is Svoboda trying to cover up their past and mask their true intentions or are they actually changing? The truth in both case is usually somewhere in the middle. In the Ukraine election (if it goes ahead), expect the Svoboda party to gain ground, does this show that the people of west Ukraine is getting more like the following that you posted?

……usually involve support for social inequality and social hierarchy, elements of social conservatism, and opposition to most forms of liberalism and socialism. Both terms are commonly used to describe fascist, neo-fascist or other ideologies and organizations that feature extreme nationalist, chauvinist, xenophobic, racist, or reactionary views.

No, I don't think the Svoboda party members or their leader represent the above definition any longer . The reason is because after the Yanukovych years, they can see the real threat to their national identity. Yanukovych and the party of Regions initially tried to softly russify Ukraine and roll back the progress since independence.

The Svoboda party members have changed, the voters have responded, by becoming party that promotes Ukrainian rather than attack other groups. As a result the members of Svoboda party that exited when it was the Socialist-National party's have shifted over to the Right sektor. And the Right Sektor, is where you will find many of the hardliners that have moved from Svoboda.

I think that to currently call them a far right party now is unfair, and is just a Kremlin stab at the Kiev government. Some of the quotes mentioned by Svoboda are the same as you might get on a UKIP tweet! They are a nationalistic party with certain members that have far-right views.

I don’t think, if you read all of my posts, that that is all I have done, but you have spent a lot of time trying to suggest that they are not. I am merely responding to that assertion.

No it's not, you make wild accusations where to call me outlandish and then when I prove it's not the case, you move on to a different subject. Now you are merely saying 14% of the Ukrainian government is far right.

And there’s no ‘if’ in my mind.

Well that's the problem, No "if" in your mind.... you want to judge the party, on the party they came from, not the party they are trying to become. You need to give them a chance.

There is no "if" in my mind on Putin's United Russia Party. And like I have said several times, they have already proved they are far right, by ethnically cleansing and they have moved to ban homosexual "propaganda". How can you possibly point out that there may be a small right wing element in Ukrainian government, when the people asserting this claim are the Kremlin.

A different set of rules to whom?

Anyone outside of the "UK political correctness bubble" aka rest of the world, that have not developed a social national identity based on their colonial history. We are pretty unique country in the UK. When Lenny Henry wrote "too many whites on TV" he was not criticized by the mainstream media, but the person that responded with a comment was. That kind of thing is seen as strange outside of the UK.

My understanding was that the singer was born to a Ukrainian mother and an African father. Are you suggesting that because she is not entirely Ukrainian, she cannot be considered ‘representative of Ukrainian Culture’?

Firstly, I would never deny anyone the right the express their views, even if I thought they were deplorable. But, I categorically would state that suggesting a singer should not represent, or is not representative of, the land of her and her mother’s birth, simply because the singer has an African father and/or is black IS racist. Perhaps it is political correctness – it’s interesting how many times I have heard Nick Griffin and other far right nut jobs use that exact same accusation whenever they are spouting their racist nonsense.

Like the UKIP, Lenny Henry reply tweet...context is everything, for example.

Eurovision is a big deal in Ukraine, they take it quite seriously. out of the 100's of Ukrainian bands and artists, some felt this girl was chosen, because it make Ukraine look more cosmopolitan and modern European. People in Ukraine thought she was chosen because she is black not due to the level of talent, to appeal to countries like the UK, France, etc. She came second last (25th) in the final. To me, choosing someone for there race (be it black or white) and not on talent...that is racist. Martin Luther King had a dream of equality not, special treatment. Klitchko, said the comments were "unfortunate", he is right, but as many Ukrainians felt, it was wrong to choose this girl because there were better people out there.

I didn't know her mother was Ukrainian. That does change what he said to make it controversial. but still if she was given the nod because of the color of her skin, that's also controversial. But it's not a "far-right" comment imho.

We are going very off topic, but as someone who has been all over Europe, following a team that has always had black players, by far the worst are the Eastern European countries, though I must say I have never been to Ukraine. After watching matches on telly, and reading

Fair enough, being in Ukraine I have never personally witnessed any racist incidents, but I have only seen one black guy outside of Kiev.

But only today there was a banana on the pitch in Spain.

I’m not saying that the far right party are a threat to Russia. I am saying that, given that almost 20% of the Ukrainian population identify themselves as Ethnically Russian, and that Svoboda have expressed quite extreme anti-Russian views, and now make up part of the Government, that a) it gives those ethnic Russians valid concerns, and b) it gives Russia an excuse to further their own agenda in the areas with large ethnic Russian populations. Again, me stating this does not mean I support Russia’s actions in the East, I do not.

How does it differ from Party of Regions? They came into power under the manifesto of promotion of the Russian language, but actually turned out to be suppressive of the Ukrainian language and culture. They ended up sending bus loads of thugs to suppress, beat & murder the people of Ukraine, that we opposed to pro-Russian agenda and government.

Svobada in government has not killed anyone, and have not yet took any steps to pass anti-Russian laws, apart from to make Ukrainian the only official language. Russian is still and will remain a national recognised language. This is why I see a Kremlin bias, because party of regions killed Ukrainians. Judge them on their actions. Maybe you will be proven right on Svoboda, but i think you need to wait before making that judgement.

And this is your assertions of the threat from the Kiev government, but the UN and OSCE have said over and over there is no threat to ethnic Russians. There is only a threat to those that want to break away. I will say it again. It these people want to be part of Russia they should .. pack up an go to Russia, if not they should learn to love Ukraine . The problem is many pro-Russian think Ukrainians are their poor cousins.

You will notice all Ukrainians, call their Country "Ukraine" and all Russians and pro-Russian Ukrainians call the country "the Ukraine". It's very deliberate, and implies that Ukraine is actually a part of Russia. That's why the BBC no longer call it "The Ukraine".

The country is Ukraine after all, Ukrainian should be allowed to be the main language and only official language. if that's what the majority want. How can Russia now play this card? after what they and their puppet Government did in Kiev to try and suppress pro European and Ukrainian culture.

Read the U.S. Government's official blog about the disinformation spread by Russia Today, other Russian sources then regurgitated by people like yourself and cat-the-fifth

http://blogs.state.gov/stories/2014/...ation-campaign

[j1979]

an example of why I feel, neo-nazi, far right themes, should only be pointed at Russia and it's supporters, not Ukrainians or even Svoboda party.

http://news.yahoo.com/several-wounde...162141325.html

This story reported by Russian media as.

Russian Life! News reported "Donetsk Self-Defense disperses Neo-Nazi rally in Donetsk."










Simon Ostrovsky's full report on what happened in Sloviansk



@CAT-THE-FIFTH who keeps popping into the thread to click thanks! do you still think we can trust Russia?



Here is another example of the Russian hypocrisy and FUD. It's fine to celebrate Lenin, Stalin the USSR in Ukraine every year and have a national holiday, pop up the Lenin statues in every corner of Ukraine, but a march in Lviv connected very loosely with the Nazis is proof apparently of neo-nazis in Ukraine. They did fight alongside the Nazis as in the 1940's, kind of understandable when the Soviets were oppressing, starving and killing them.

http://rt.com/news/155364-ukraine-nazi-division-march/

The Lion is the Cities symbol. Lviv means Lion in Ukrainian. This march has nothing to do with Nazi Germany. Do a little reading it will be clear to most readers the Galician identity has existed long before Grand Duchy of Moscow and long before the Nazis too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia...tern_Europe%29

[opel80uk]

I asked the question because, many people see a extremist far-right party and a Nazi-like party as the same. So in calling a party "far-right" so are calling them nazi like. It doesn't really matter.

Well, many people would be wrong then. There are far right organisations all over the world, some of them having displayed no anti-Semitic sentiments at all, depending on their own interests. For example, much of Asian far-right politics doesn’t feature Semitism, but they are still far right. Equally, many European far right parties have expressed support for Israel and the Jewish state, in the face of a growing tide across Europe of Anti-Islamic sentiment. So do say it doesn’t matter is naïve at best, and dangerous at worst.

As for Svobada, i don't see them as a far-right party, or a nazi party. I see the as a political party with some far-right views. They are strongly opposed to any Russian influence in Ukraine, and they appeal to those that identify more closely with Poland than Russia.

Some far-right views? That is disingenuous. You only have to read what is their policy is (not individual members views) to realise that they are a far right party, meeting almost every widely accepted criteria. If you choose to ignore that, along with their official stances on homosexuality, ethnic minorities, insisting that only ethnic Ukrainians fill civil service jobs (imagine if the Tory party said only White Anglo-Saxon people could be state employees), and convince yourself they are simply a pro Ukrainian party then that’s your prerogative. But I would suggest that fools no one on here.

….. So in answer to your question yes, I would support it in theory but, in practical terms though it's almost impossible to reach that goal. I also think that, in Donbas and Lugansk oblasts there is a small chance of a Russian win, outside of these oblasts it's highly unlikely. After all, under these conditions a fair referendum in Crimea would have been very close IMHO, based on population demographics and previous opinion polls.

That’s fair enough.

The Ukrainian propaganda, this is my point.
There are plenty of Ukrainian stories out there that are totally unfounded, and have no basis in truth. I choose not to post these stories. I am only posting stories that have some credibility and in most cases come from multiple sources. I am trying really hard not to post something that is FUD. If a story is a maybe, I will present it as such.

But you are doing it yourself, perhaps without realising it. You yourself posted that Russia were flying bombers all around Europe, and that Western media were not reporting it. Not only were western media reporting it (I found the BBC article seconds after reading your post), and provided by the link, but there was nothing wrong with what Russia was doing as, according the RAF spokesman, the bombers stayed in international airspace and the flights were common place, as was the scrambling of jets to the edge of British territory. Yet someone reading your initial post would be under the impression that Russia was invading.

And one of my points is that many negative stories about Ukrainians, quite often do come from multiple sources, but Russian media is not as free as Ukrainian media, and many of the multiple sources are in fact coming from various Kremlin funded places. The world is being bombarded with negative stories about Ukraine, the political parties, the government and the legality of the situation.

If a lie is repeated several times, from several sources it becomes true.

But that would work both ways, surely? In fact, given that there is clear support for Ukraine from within the West, I would suggest it is Russia that would lose any propaganda war.

For a party to become popular and win votes, the people either shift towards the parties views or the party needs to shift to the center. So if you take your point of view the growth in popularity of Svoboda either reflects that the population have become far right extremists or reflects my point of view that Svoboda have moved closer to the centre.

Now I don't see a huge shift to the far right in Ukraine. What I see a population that are totally sick and tired of Putin and the Russians with the superiority complex, where the average Russian sees the average Ukrainian as a second class citizen. I see that the people of Ukraine want to make a clean break from this snooty, paranoid, manipulative and aggressive nation.

I think that to currently call them a far right party now is unfair, and is just a Kremlin stab at the Kiev government. Some of the quotes mentioned by Svoboda are the same as you might get on a UKIP tweet! They are a nationalistic party with certain members that have far-right views.

I fully expect the UKIP councillor to be expelled from the party, as they have done with other members who have expressed those types of views. And that’s the difference – remind me what happened to the party members who attacked that TV executive? I suppose only time will tell whether Svoboda are changing, or whether they are moderating their views simply to garner votes and support while the eyes of the world are on them. I know what I’d put my money on. Regarding UKIP, I find them pretty reprehensible too.

….. you make wild accusations where to call me outlandish and then when I prove it's not the case, you move on to a different subject. Now you are merely saying 14% of the Ukrainian government is far right.

Well, I gave an example of an outlandish claim above regarding the bombers and the BBC article that you posted about, and you just ignored it. What would you like me to do, continue to press you on it till you give an answer? And again, I never gave any figure regarding what percentage of the Government is far right, you did. I merely said that there were members of a far right party in Government. That Svoboda are in Government is fact, and I, amongst others, think they are a far right party.

Well that's the problem, No "if" in your mind.... you want to judge the party, on the party they came from, not the party they are trying to become. You need to give them a chance.

Well ok, I’ll judge them on the fact that as soon as they got into power, one of the first things they done was to go and beat up some TV guy who dared show something they didn’t like. Were those members suspended, or expelled? No, of course not. I’m trying to like them, really I am.

There is no "if" in my mind on Putin's United Russia Party. And like I have said several times, they have already proved they are far right, by ethnically cleansing and they have moved to ban homosexual "propaganda". How can you possibly point out that there may be a small right wing element in Ukrainian government, when the people asserting this claim are the Kremlin.

Because there are no posters on here trying to suggest that Russia are great. If CAT was explicitly defending Russia’s actions, or suggesting that the Kremlin was a haven for liberal thinkers, I, and others, would be arguing with him too. But he isn’t. And I’m not saying what I am saying because the Kremlin are pointing it out, I am saying it because I think it.

Anyone outside of the "UK political correctness bubble" aka rest of the world, that have not developed a social national identity based on their colonial history. We are pretty unique country in the UK. When Lenny Henry wrote "too many whites on TV" he was not criticized by the mainstream media, but the person that responded with a comment was. That kind of thing is seen as strange outside of the UK.

Firstly, Lenny Henry didn’t write anything, it was a Lecture he gave, and secondly, he never said there were ‘too many whites’. What he said was that there wasn’t enough ethnic minorities represented on TV and that it was unrepresentative of British society. Why would, or should, he be criticised for saying that that, if the statistics back up what he is saying? Furthermore, there are plenty of countries outside of the UK where the suggestion that a black person, in response to something similar to what Henry said, being told to ‘go and live in a black country’, would be met with widespread disgust. So just because you seem to have an interest in a country that takes a laissez-faire attitude towards racism, don’t tar all countries outside the Uk with the same brush.

Eurovision is a big deal in Ukraine, they take it quite seriously. out of the 100's of Ukrainian bands and artists, some felt this girl was chosen, because it make Ukraine look more cosmopolitan and modern European. People in Ukraine thought she was chosen because she is black not due to the level of talent, to appeal to countries like the UK, France, etc. She came second last (25th) in the final. To me, choosing someone for there race (be it black or white) and not on talent...that is racist. Martin Luther King had a dream of equality not, special treatment. Klitchko, said the comments were "unfortunate", he is right, but as many Ukrainians felt, it was wrong to choose this girl because there were better people out there.

I didn't know her mother was Ukrainian. That does change what he said to make it controversial. but still if she was given the nod because of the color of her skin, that's also controversial. But it's not a "far-right" comment imho.

Firstly, she never came 25th, she came 15th. Secondly, plenty of people came out in support of her ability, including previous singers, so she can’t have been that bad, and thirdly, she seems to have won a public vote that allowed to represent Ukraine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine...g_Contest_2012

I think, frankly, what you are saying is laughable.

Fair enough, being in Ukraine I have never personally witnessed any racist incidents, but I have only seen one black guy outside of Kiev.

But only today there was a banana on the pitch in Spain.

And the person that threw it has been banned for life from attending Villarreal’s matches. Again, that’s the difference.

How does it differ from Party of Regions? They came into power under the manifesto of promotion of the Russian language, but actually turned out to be suppressive of the Ukrainian language and culture…….

It’s not. When did I suggest it was?

I will say it again. It these people want to be part of Russia they should .. pack up an go to Russia, if not they should learn to love Ukraine.

Not if there are large areas where pro Russians are the majority, territorial disputes do not work that way.

The country is Ukraine after all, Ukrainian should be allowed to be the main language and only official language. if that's what the majority want. How can Russia now play this card? after what they and their puppet Government did in Kiev to try and suppress pro European and Ukrainian culture.

Of course Ukraine can pass whatever laws they want. But if they are allowing, shall we say, dubious, individuals make up Government, refusing to offer certain rights or concessions to ethnic minorities (in this case offering to make Russian an official language), and insist on taking a certain course that is sure to antagonise Russia, then the powers that be shouldn’t expect the West to run to their rescue when they kick the hornets’ nest. If Ukraine wants to be the big man with Russia, then so be it, but don’t expect others to play big brother.

[j1979]

Well, many people would be wrong then. There are far right organisations all over the world, some of them having displayed no anti-Semitic sentiments at all, depending on their own interests. For example, much of Asian far-right politics doesn’t feature Semitism, but they are still far right. Equally, many European far right parties have expressed support for Israel and the Jewish state, in the face of a growing tide across Europe of Anti-Islamic sentiment. So do say it doesn’t matter is naïve at best, and dangerous at worst.

I always understood the definition of a Nazi is a national socialist (far-right) group as opposed to a (far-left) socialist group. The ideology almost exactly the same but the socialist (in theory, all are equal) in practice persecutes the rich, privileged and educated, the national socialist blames and persecutes another usually specific ethnic group. Where as a nationalist wants the promotion of a national identity. A Nazi party can exist and blame an entirely different ethnic group. Some people see some Jewish and some Muslim groups as national socialists.

Some far-right views? That is disingenuous. You only have to read what is their policy is (not individual members views) to realise that they are a far right party, meeting almost every widely accepted criteria. If you choose to ignore that, along with their official stances on homosexuality, ethnic minorities, insisting that only ethnic Ukrainians fill civil service jobs (imagine if the Tory party said only White Anglo-Saxon people could be state employees), and convince yourself they are simply a pro Ukrainian party then that’s your prerogative. But I would suggest that fools no one on here.

You keep saying this but I am asking for proof, since Svoboda got 14% of the government, what has been the result? where is this threat to ethnic Russians? Show me, what they have done.

But the UN and OSCE have compiled reports on the Situation in Kiev and the Kiev government, the threat to the east and Crimea. They have concluded there is not any threat.

There is going to be nationalistic sentiment it's impossible to avoid, but the government including Svoboda party have been almost resoundingly congratulated on their restraint, of action. ethnic Russians living in west Ukraine (Svoboda heartland) are substantially safer than ethnic Ukrainians living in the east.

You say there is a threat but no proof. So far we are over 1000 dead who support Ukrainian side, and about 25 pro-Russians. ethnic Ukrainians are the ones under threat here, they are the ones in danger from the Kremlin backed forces, and have been for years.

That’s fair enough.

But you are doing it yourself, perhaps without realising it. You yourself posted that Russia were flying bombers all around Europe, and that Western media were not reporting it. Not only were western media reporting it (I found the BBC article seconds after reading your post), and provided by the link, but there was nothing wrong with what Russia was doing as, according the RAF spokesman, the bombers stayed in international airspace and the flights were common place, as was the scrambling of jets to the edge of British territory. Yet someone reading your initial post would be under the impression that Russia was invading.

Yes I posted that, but it's not out of context, Russia had done several flybys on a US ship in the black sea. They sent 2 bombers, and a ship. It was not just the UK that reacted, but they did enter Dutch air space. and the Danish also scrambled jets. Like I said, the Russians are testing the waters and testing reactions.

I never said they were sending the bombers on a mission. There mission would have failed anyway. But the Russian timing is not a coincidence. It's a reminder on purpose.
http://www.voanews.com/content/us-co...a/1893062.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/23/wo...s-intercepted/
http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/def...ters-1-6017646

But that would work both ways, surely? In fact, given that there is clear support for Ukraine from within the West, I would suggest it is Russia that would lose any propaganda war.

They are losing it, the Ukrainian side will win because it has a lot more basis in fact. Sure there are complete FUD stories coining out of Ukraine from both sides. But Russia takes that to an official level. The whole Russian government and press in general follow the party line. Russian Journalist that offer a Ukrainian standpoint are in extreme danger, I said that from day one. And it's true, there are roughly 150 (pro-Ukrainian) journalists detained (including Crimea) and missing and to my knowledge 0 (pro-Russian).

It's a one sided propaganda war where one plays by the rules and the other side does not imho.

I fully expect the UKIP councillor to be expelled from the party, as they have done with other members who have expressed those types of views. And that’s the difference – remind me what happened to the party members who attacked that TV executive? I suppose only time will tell whether Svoboda are changing, or whether they are moderating their views simply to garner votes and support while the eyes of the world are on them. I know what I’d put my money on. Regarding UKIP, I find them pretty reprehensible too.

Well the cameras were there to tell the story, the TV station is still broadcasting and the incident was broadcast to the world, he was not brandishing a gun. It tells me a lot. Of the 5 TV Broadcast stations stations in Crimea and the 2 now taken at gunpoint in East Ukraine. Where were the TV cameras then? where was the free press then?

As for the Svoboda member comparing his punishment to UKIP, he's in a country, where it's almost a war situation, his blood is boiling, and I understand his frustration. There will be no action against him. but that's to be expected.

To pick up on this one incident to me shows your bias, that you don't see.

Well, I gave an example of an outlandish claim above regarding the bombers and the BBC article that you posted about, and you just ignored it. What would you like me to do, continue to press you on it till you give an answer? And again, I never gave any figure regarding what percentage of the Government is far right, you did. I merely said that there were members of a far right party in Government. That Svoboda are in Government is fact, and I, amongst others, think they are a far right party.

The outlandish claim you said I made was the double agent snipers in Kiev. I posted the credible links.

And I did not say the Russians were coming to bomb the UK, I said they were testing the waters. so how is that outlandish?

Svoboda in government yet ethnic Russians safer in Lviv than ethnic Ukrainains in the east. this is a fact.

Well ok, I’ll judge them on the fact that as soon as they got into power, one of the first things they done was to go and beat up some TV guy who dared show something they didn’t like. Were those members suspended, or expelled? No, of course not. I’m trying to like them, really I am.

again, it's almost a war situation and you think he should be reprimanded for a bitch slap? Get real!
How many TV stations taken off air in Ukraine? and what areas? I will answer that... all TV that has been taken off air in in Russian controlled areas.

Because there are no posters on here trying to suggest that Russia are great. If CAT was explicitly defending Russia’s actions, or suggesting that the Kremlin was a haven for liberal thinkers, I, and others, would be arguing with him too. But he isn’t. And I’m not saying what I am saying because the Kremlin are pointing it out, I am saying it because I think it.

With regards to CAT. He said that he thought i was paranoid for not trusting Russia, he seemed to suggest they were a normal modern progressive nation. I simply want to know if he changed his mind since December.

You think it because of he way you have been brain washed. Because the freedom of the press in Ukraine is vastly better off than their freedom in east Ukraine, Crimea and Russia. You don't see that, and you don't see how it has clouded your perspective.

Firstly, Lenny Henry didn’t write anything, it was a Lecture he gave, and secondly, he never said there were ‘too many whites’. What he said was that there wasn’t enough ethnic minorities represented on TV and that it was unrepresentative of British society. Why would, or should, he be criticised for saying that that, if the statistics back up what he is saying? Furthermore, there are plenty of countries outside of the UK where the suggestion that a black person, in response to something similar to what Henry said, being told to ‘go and live in a black country’, would be met with widespread disgust. So just because you seem to have an interest in a country that takes a laissez-faire attitude towards racism, don’t tar all countries outside the Uk with the same brush.

i will try to get back on topic now...
Well he shouldn't be critizied for saying that, if he never said the words "too many whites on TV". but if he did, that's Racist.

Firstly, she never came 25th, she came 15th. Secondly, plenty of people came out in support of her ability, including previous singers, so she can’t have been that bad, and thirdly, she seems to have won a public vote that allowed to represent Ukraine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine...g_Contest_2012

I think, frankly, what you are saying is laughable.

Strange you think a country with the rise of the far right such as Ukraine would vote for a this girl.... Why is that? I knew you'd fall into my trap sooner or later.

You think it's laughable. Fair enough. It's off topic, but there is positive discrimination happening in the western world imho and it causes problems too.

And the person that threw it has been banned for life from attending Villarreal’s matches. Again, that’s the difference.

You only have to go on YouTube and type in "racist chants football" to see many from all over the world. It's not relevant at all to the debate. and you are bias. If you want to tar the whole of eastern Europe with the Racist brush, do it. Yes it's a problem like a lot of the world, but it's not unique to Ukraine, and not relevant to the Russia / EU debate. Ukraine has some racists so does every other country.

-----------------------------------
"How does it (Svoboda) differ from Party of Regions?"

It’s not. When did I suggest it was?

thanks for admitting it. So the Party of Regions government replaced by 14% Svoboda government... you know where i'm going so i will leave it there.

Not if there are large areas where pro Russians are the majority, territorial disputes do not work that way.

There are not large areas. There are pro-Russians from Russian, Crimea and some local , taking over towns, taking over TV, broadcasting Russian lies, creating hysteria, division, hate and stirring this. People that show there views are kiddnapped or worse in East Ukraine / Crimea.

Thats what I keep saying over and over, but you have your fingers in your ears again.

Of course Ukraine can pass whatever laws they want. But if they are allowing, shall we say, dubious, individuals make up Government, refusing to offer certain rights or concessions to ethnic minorities (in this case offering to make Russian an official language), and insist on taking a certain course that is sure to antagonise Russia, then the powers that be shouldn’t expect the West to run to their rescue when they kick the hornets’ nest. If Ukraine wants to be the big man with Russia, then so be it, but don’t expect others to play big brother.

That's where we have to disagree.

Because as I have said about 20 times now. The new government has been congratulated on it's massive progress on Human Rights, and the East and Crimea have been roundly condemned.

Russian should be protected as a "Recognised regional language" as it is now.

Russia can be antagonised all it likes, let them dig their own political grave, they have already lost Ukraine, let the people decide what they want, and lets hope Russia don't try and stop the democratic process.

[Galant]

Just as an FYI:
As someone who has been following, and is interested in, this thread, the last few super-long exchanges have made it rather difficult to follow. (Bit of an education for me there as I do have that tendency myself).

Accuracy is, of course, important, but accuracy that isn't widely read isn't going to help anyone (I understand I'm open to the charge of laziness here - but honestly, all the short back and forth is hard to keep track of).

May I request a TLDR or just a more of a succinct approach rather than a full dissection?

One lesson I've been learning lately is that my best communication/instruction comes when I keep it short. I tend to want to get everything I know across, but I end up getting very little across that actually stays with people. I've been trying, lately, with some success I think, to not worry about every detail. Just get a few, well delivered points across to stay with people, and the details can be added later, or questions asked. As they say, Rome wasn't built in a day.

Would be appreciated!

[j1979]

Just as an FYI:
As someone who has been following, and is interested in, this thread, the last few super-long exchanges have made it rather difficult to follow. (Bit of an education for me there as I do have that tendency myself).

Accuracy is, of course, important, but accuracy that isn't widely read isn't going to help anyone (I understand I'm open to the charge of laziness here - but honestly, all the short back and forth is hard to keep track of).

May I request a TLR or just a more of a succinct approach rather than a full dissection?

One lesson I've been learning lately is that my best communication/instruction comes when I keep it short. I tend to want to get everything I know across, but I end up getting very little across that actually stays with people. I've been trying, lately, with some success I think, to not worry about every detail. Just get a few, well delivered points across to stay with people, and the details can be added later, or questions asked. As they say, Rome wasn't built in a day.

Would be appreciated!

You are right !

I feel I am trying not to overlook his points and answer all of Opel's views with each counter argument. I will leave it there because I feel I made my point and Opel made his.


EDIT:

the problem is, he is using what I see as a problem that is much more a pro-Russian problem to justify the counter Ukrainian argument. For example.

There are "Racist far right" on the Ukrainian side and in government. Yet, all the evidence suggests, non Russians are in extreme danger in pro-Russian areas.


3000 tartars displaced in Crimea and Roma, Ukrainians and other minorities in the east, moved on, while no ethnic Russians have been moved on in west Ukraine.

He uses this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nnmbR-MWFA to suggest, it's somehow to be taken as a serious issue, meanwhile TV stations in the east and Crimea were systematically taken down and censored wholesale.

He sits on the fence claiming not to support Russia at all, yet his arguments don't balance. At least I am willing to say I support Ukraine.

He actually still thinks events in Crimea and east Ukraine were organic, but any sane person can see it was fomented by Russia. While the Ukrainian government has asked for calm and restraint over and over, Russia has just kept making threats.

His fence sitting, "I don't support Russia but I will relay the Kremlin's unfounded and hypocritical concerns" stance, is crazy.

safe in L'viv or Kiev not safe in Sevasotpol or Donetsk. That's the reality that he can't see.

[j1979]

The man in charge in East Ukraine...Igor Strelkov, or actually to give him his alleged real name Igor Girkin of the Russian GRU.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Strelkov_%28GRU%29
http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/202596.html
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs...tist-militancy



I will quote wiki, before the Russians get it deleted.

"Igor Vsevolodovich Girkin also known as Strelkov (born 17 December 1970)[1] is a Russian citizen and a leader of pro-Russian forces in Ukraine. According to Ukraine[2] and the EU[3], he is also a Russian military intelligence agent leading alleged Russian covert operations in Eastern Ukraine.

On April 15, the Security Service of Ukraine opened a criminal proceeding against the Russian citizen "Strelkov" for intended assassination. He was described as the leader of the "saboteurs" in Sloviansk, and in March had allegedly coordinated Russian military takeovers of Ukrainian units in Crimea.[4] The next day, he allegedly sought to recruit Ukrainian soldiers detained at the entrance to Kramatorsk. There was some indication that he may be connected to sniper attacks on protesters in Kiev.[5][6][7]

On April 26, Igor Strelkov gave a video interview to the Komsomolskaya Pravda where he said that his militia in Slaviansk was formed in Crimea and comprised of military veterans; it included Russian citizens but was two-thirds Ukrainian.[8] He publicly announced that his militia would not release the |OSCE observers that it had taken hostage.[9] The Ukrainian government claimed he was behind the kidnapping, torture, and murder of Ukrainian politician Vladimir Rybak and a 19-year-old college student.[9]

Strelkov was subsequently identified by Ukraine as Igor Girkin. On 28 April, the EU sanctioned "Igor Strelkov" as a GRU staff member believed to be a coordinator of armed actions and a security assistant to Crimea's Sergey Aksyonov.[3]

On April 29, he appointed a new police chief for Kramatorsk.[10]"



Putin: "this whole Crisis was driven by the US from the start"
as the guy below shows his Russian Passport.


Donetsk Peoples Republic (AKA Little Russia / Pro-Russian)
The guy below is not a typical example but these people always pop up at times like this to spread hate.





And in case anyone missed it.

Read the US Department of States official blog. words expressed, far better than I ever could, but the same points I have been arguing since December.

[opel80uk]

Just as an FYI:
As someone who has been following, and is interested in, this thread, the last few super-long exchanges have made it rather difficult to follow. (Bit of an education for me there as I do have that tendency myself).

Accuracy is, of course, important, but accuracy that isn't widely read isn't going to help anyone (I understand I'm open to the charge of laziness here - but honestly, all the short back and forth is hard to keep track of).

May I request a TLDR or just a more of a succinct approach rather than a full dissection?

One lesson I've been learning lately is that my best communication/instruction comes when I keep it short. I tend to want to get everything I know across, but I end up getting very little across that actually stays with people. I've been trying, lately, with some success I think, to not worry about every detail. Just get a few, well delivered points across to stay with people, and the details can be added later, or questions asked. As they say, Rome wasn't built in a day.

Would be appreciated!

It’s a fair point, but it can be difficult when you are discussing complex and multi-faceted issues. Although to be honest, I think that when it gets to the point of discussing something with someone who, on a specific point, gets almost every detail wrong, then misrepresents what I had actually said, and then claims I fell into a trap, it’s time to bow out of a thread anyway.

[j1979]

It’s a fair point, but it can be difficult when you are discussing complex and multi-faceted issues. Although to be honest, I think that when it gets to the point of discussing something with someone who, on a specific point, gets almost every detail wrong, then misrepresents what I had actually said, and then claims I fell into a trap, it’s time to bow out of a thread anyway.

I have not misrepresented you. you have three main points. And for some reason you decided to say i misrepresented you when you make a distinction between far-right/fascist extremists and neo-nazis. I don't really see a difference, the same ideology with a different name. Fascists, neo-fascists, nazis, neo-nazis and far-right extremists are all different words for the same thing in my opinion.

Opel makes these 3 points.

1. The Kiev Government is illegitimate.
2. The government has far right members that are a threat to the human rights of ethnic Russians in Ukraine.
3. That racist football hooligans, somehow are representative that Ukraine has a far-right element and Ukraine along with other eastern European countries are the only place in the world this is tolerated.

I am simply saying...

1. The Kiev Government is legal, (he calls it his opinion) but under the Ukrainian constitution and international law, his option is actually wrong. Nothing more a denial of fact, and if he wants to produce proof of the "Coup" then I'm listening. But until he provides these illusive facts his point remains nothing more that Kremlin funded fud.

2. There is no proof that Svoboda in government are a threat to the human rights of ethnic Russians. Which is in contrast to the human rights of minorities in east & Crimea. The support of the Ukrainians in areas where they are a minority is the priory of Svoboda.

3. Racism in football, is there in Ukraine, but it's not a Ukraine only problem, it exists in almost every country in the world, by the fans and the players and it's not relevant to the (Ukraine, Russia, Crimea) situation, in any way at all. Because if there are racist extremists on both sides (Ukrainian and pro-Russian), how does that make it relevant? Especially as Human rights of minorities in the east are under more of a threat than the west.

Opel's version of points, 1 and 2 have been mentioned by UN, OSCE, US & EU, and have been refuted with strong supporting evidence. These view points are Kremlin manipulation of the truth. Point 3, is simply his stereotyping of the Ukrainians.

So forgive me when I say... Do svidaniya, comrade!

[g8ina]

and on that note of farewell, I really do think this thread has run its useful course.

A personal blog would be far more beneficial I believe. It's had a great run with over 14000 views and 440 replies. It's also attracted a lot of reports to the Mod team, and so that is yer lot.

[g8ina]

Reopened for a short while while Jon edits his posts to link to his blog. Will be locked after that.

[g8ina]

UPDATE : THE BLOG :-

http://ukrainestory.com
The blog should be up by Sunday 4th.