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Thread: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

  1. #49
    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And given that, I will if you wish close this thread, temporarily at least.

    Everybody feels for anyone there, or in some ways worse, with loved ones there.

    But, we cannot control people making arguments, even when people don't like some of it.

    The thread stays open if you want it to, but we can't force people to agree with you. Is discussing this right now a good idea? It looks like it's just adding to the stress you're under??
    No need!

    I think we are both able to see the others point of view even if we could never agree.

    I would like to keep the thread open. Discussion is all I can do a the moment.

  2. #50
    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    That official (the new "Crimean PM") was placed there by Russian special forces!

    Not after 3 months of peaceful protest that was ended after the president banned protests and also banned people from wearing protective clothing. followed by clearing the protest and when they didn't move open fire on them.

    Now all Russia should do is wait for the democratic elections on May 25th.
    Listen to yourself, think of the contradictions.

    So this oppressive president, banned the protests, banned them wearing any protective clothing, and what? Suddenly threw in the towel?

    Violence happened.

    Then he threw in the towel.

    This has pissed some people off. They see it as the person I voted for, has been ousted by thuggs. The others see this as, the person who had a dodgy election has been ousted by heros.

    Those are the two view points. It will get messy. It will get nasty. Just as things in Thailand keep flashing up between the Red and Yellows, Just as the North and the South did in Vietnam. People are going to die.

    Why you think Russia is the evil aggressor in this I don't know. I think you've got a very biased anti-putin stance, and want to see things as black and white as possible. Myself I don't like Putin, but I am not going to get my knickers in a twist because some people do.
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  3. #51
    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    Listen to yourself, think of the contradictions.

    So this oppressive president, banned the protests, banned them wearing any protective clothing, and what? Suddenly threw in the towel?

    Violence happened.

    Then he threw in the towel.

    This has pissed some people off. They see it as the person I voted for, has been ousted by thuggs. The others see this as, the person who had a dodgy election has been ousted by heros.

    Those are the two view points. It will get messy. It will get nasty. Just as things in Thailand keep flashing up between the Red and Yellows, Just as the North and the South did in Vietnam. People are going to die.

    Why you think Russia is the evil aggressor in this I don't know. I think you've got a very biased anti-putin stance, and want to see things as black and white as possible. Myself I don't like Putin, but I am not going to get my knickers in a twist because some people do.
    I fail to see the contradiction. The Ukraine president fled after he killed his own citizens after failing to do something he promised in his election manifesto. The people protested, and he tried to stop them by passing new laws, he was someone that got into power and then passed laws to give himself more power.

    The Berkut killed 8 people while clearing the main square of peaceful protesters. then the next day the Berkut killed another 80 people that were armed with 2 air rifles. The government used sniper rifles from vantage points.

    Same with any protest group the vast majority are people are simply normal people.
    Russian / Ukrainian
    https://www.facebook.com/maidaners
    In English
    https://www.facebook.com/maidaners1

    Here is the massacre. don't see them attacking with weapons, + they were all head or chest shot. That is not crowd control.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2zYvCVkBeY
    sorry I don't see it as crowd control!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDid8...has_verified=1

    If you want to know why the last president has no validity and why millions of Ukrainians (Ukrainian and Russian speakers) are tired with this crook.
    http://yanukovychleaks.org/

    The president then agreed to share power the next day then the day after he fled. The people will get new elections on May 25th

    What is the problem? Why don't Russia back off and let the people have fair and democratic elections in May?

    It's all stirring on purpose by Russia. They have taken over the TV in Crimea and are actively provoking hatred talking about the "fact" that an army of fascists are coming to attack Crimea.
    Last edited by j1979; 02-03-2014 at 03:41 PM.

  4. #52
    The late but legendary peterb - Onward and Upward peterb's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Only seems to be getting worse

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26405635
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  5. #53
    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Answer this. If Ukip were elected on the main point of leaving the EU.

    Then when the time came they decided not to leave the EU.

    If then we had an "Occupy London" or "Occupy Wall Street" type movement...

    followed by a president passing laws to make this type of protest illegal then, he continues to try and force people to stop protesting with "titushki" (groups of wandering government hard-men). Then Berkut armed riot police, then he opens fire on unarmed people. If this happened in the UK what would you do?

    If the government then fled and a new interim government was formed with the promise of elections in May. I would say that was a very fair outcome under the difficult circumstances.

    I don't see how you can fail to acknowledge this point.

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    Senior Member grayg1's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    "You just don't in the 21st Century behave in 19th Century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped-up pretext," Mr Kerry told the CBS program Face the Nation.
    Yes Mr Kerry, the USA would never do anything like that

  7. #55
    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by grayg1 View Post
    Yes Mr Kerry, the USA would never do anything like that
    You will have to point that one out!

    When since John Kerry has been Secretary of State has the US invaded another country?

    or for that matter his predecessor Hillary Clinton?

  8. #56
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    "You just don't in the 21st Century behave in 19th Century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped-up pretext," Mr Kerry told the CBS program Face the Nation.
    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    You will have to point that one out!

    When since John Kerry has been Secretary of State has the US invaded another country?

    or for that matter his predecessor Hillary Clinton?
    In the 21st century US troops have gone into at least Iraq and Afghanistan.

  9. #57
    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    In the 21st century US troops have gone into at least Iraq and Afghanistan.
    Yes but not under Obama's admin.

    And John Kerry has since admitted mistakes made by America. The Democrats have a much better record.

  10. #58
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    Yes but not under Obama's admin.

    And John Kerry has since admitted mistakes made by America. The Democrats have a much better record.
    Sure, but it's a bit rich to say 'you don't do something' when your own democratic country (thus mandate from the people and all that) did exactly the thing you are saying not to do

    Clearly in the 21st Century people do - you can say 'we were wrong to do x', but saying 'you just don't' comes across very silly.

  11. #59
    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Sure, but it's a bit rich to say 'you don't do something' when your own democratic country (thus mandate from the people and all that) did exactly the thing you are saying not to do

    Clearly in the 21st Century people do - you can say 'we were wrong to do x', but saying 'you just don't' comes across very silly.
    No America use a "partially trumped-up pretext"

    and Russia are using a "completely trumped-up pretext"


    I'm Kerry with on this one

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    Hexus.Jet TeePee's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    Yes but not under Obama's admin.

    And John Kerry has since admitted mistakes made by America. The Democrats have a much better record.
    No they don't. They've attacked more countries and forced troops into more countries than Bush did. That's before we mention the drone strikes. Obama was elected on the promise of ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. AFG continues, Iraq lasted six more years, longer under Obama than Bush.

    Obama is a Neocon warmonger, just the same as Bush. The illusion of two parties in the US is exactly that.

  13. #61
    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by TeePee View Post
    No they don't. They've attacked more countries and forced troops into more countries than Bush did. That's before we mention the drone strikes. Obama was elected on the promise of ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. AFG continues, Iraq lasted six more years, longer under Obama than Bush.

    Obama is a Neocon warmonger, just the same as Bush. The illusion of two parties in the US is exactly that.
    Sorry.. looks like we are going off topic again. so I will say this on the matter

    there hasn't been any American troop invasions of another country under Obama.

    there has been plenty of covert operations and drone attacks like you say.

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    Pork & Beans Powerup Phage's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Oh bloody hell.
    Ukraine must know they can't win Crimea. If they're lucky, Russia will stop on the border. This looks like partition is unavoidable now, as Western Ukraine will never go back to Russian influence willingly.

    On the plus side, we welcome west Ukraine back in Europe.
    Society's to blame,
    Or possibly Atari.

  15. #63
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Phage View Post
    On the plus side, we welcome west Ukraine back in Europe.
    Another country to bail out A split would be ideal for Russia - they probably can't afford to (or don't want to) bail out the whole thing themselves.

  16. #64
    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Phage View Post
    Oh bloody hell.
    Ukraine must know they can't win Crimea. If they're lucky, Russia will stop on the border. This looks like partition is unavoidable now, as Western Ukraine will never go back to Russian influence willingly.

    On the plus side, we welcome west Ukraine back in Europe.
    I hope you are wrong! But I think you're probably right

    Western and European governments are stopping short of any military intervention threats at the moment with the exception of Turkey, which has said they may intervene.

    If Turkey do step in, then it's difficult to see how they can without a declaration of war on Russia. Under those circumstances we are in deep ****

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