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Thread: Labour party position and EU Referendum

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    Labour party position and EU Referendum

    Does it make sense?

    To me, no. Here's why.

    Today, we got another piece in the slowly-developing Labour platform for the next election, as the next piece of the picture was announced.

    As I understand it, the position is that

    1) Being in the EU is right for Britain, so as long as the status quo holds, we, the people, don't get a say in it.

    2) Labour will NOT hold a referendum unless they have already agreed to a treaty change that cedes new powers to Brussels. Well, fair enough. Not my view, or that of quite a few Labour MPs, but it's a party position, so fair enough.

    3) If they DO agree such a treaty change, they will hold a referendum, prior to ratification, but not on the change, but on in/out.

    4) The current coalition Act on treaty change requires a referendum if treaty changes are made, ON THE NEW TREATY, not necessarily on in/out.


    So, if Labour get into power, they will change the law in such a way as to make maintaining the current position, which they say they support, the one thing we, the people, cannot vote to have.

    For argument's sake, the "unlikely" (I'll come back to that likelihood later) position of a treaty change occurs. We will get a referendum allowing us to pick between accepting the treaty change, or leaving the EU. The option to simply reject the treaty change, which would leave us and the EU as we are now won't be on offer, but that's precisely what Labour currently won't give us a say on.

    So, right now, we can't opt to reject the current situation, but Labour's policy and proposed law prevents us from picking the situation we have now, that Labour won't let us change.

    If the current situation is right, why is that the one option a referendum will not offer?

    If it's not right, why aren't we getting a referendum on changing it?

    After all, that's EXACTLY current Tory party policy, that is, seek to negotiate improvements, but then offer us in/out, based on a negotiated change, provided the changes are acceptable, but that "in" is recommended.


    Now, "likelihood" of treaty change?

    Labour are right, IMHO. Treaty change is unlikely. But note I said [b]treaty[b] change, not just non-treaty change. Why? Because, nake no mistake, changes are coming, The financial situation and Euro mess make that absolutely clear. But "treaty" change is unlikrly precisely because treaty change will trigger a series of natiobal referenda, which the EU know full-flaming well would be highly problematic in many countries, if the actual people get a say. So, they will come up with a legalistic way of implementing change without triggering a treaty .... or referenda. And, by the way, the paving powers laying the framework for that were in Lisbon.

    So yes, treaty change is "unlikely" because they (being the EU powers and Brussels bureaucracy) have already stitched things up so that they won't need to ask for permissions they suspect, or know, they wouldn't get.

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    Re: Labour party position and EU Referendum

    Its a smoke and mirrors exercise. I heard Mandelsson on R$ this morning defending the proposal, and very plausible he was too. But as a policy, it is designed to ensure a Yes - stay in vote, should it ever come to one, while being dressed up as a logical position.

    The problem with the Conservative position is that we still don't really know how the question will be phrased. It is touted as an In/Out question, but under what circumstances - as I don't think the Conservative party really want out. Again, a Conservative spokesman was on R4, spelling out the concessions the UK has won in the last 4 years (such as reform of the common fisheries policy) which seem to be very worthwhile, but they have not been widely reported (wonder why.... - but thats another issue - to be charitable, I'll say that they make dull news), so I foresee a huge backlash vote for UKIP at the next European elections (huge in terms of numbers returned, rather than vote, which will probably be the usual low turnout because of antipathy towards Europe.)

    In one sense that will be a pity, because UKIP seems to have no interest in reform, on the other hand, it may serve as a big wake up call that there is antipathy towards membership of a European (political) Union.

    Which leads to what (IMHO) is the real question (that is - again IMHO - being ducked) of whether we should be part of a Common Market, but out of the political union and stop the transfer of legislation making from London to Brussels/Strasburg - wherever the European gravy train is convened this month.
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    Re: Labour party position and EU Referendum

    I agree that the Tory party position, and I stress party position, as opposed to a vocal minority within it, isn't entirely coherent.

    From what I can tell, the position is that they want to stay in, but that what we're in both is, and needs to, change. It is changing because of the requifements of the Euro debacle, and needs to on a range of issues. There is SOME ageeement with many other EU states that changes are needed, but that's a long way from agreeing what needs to change, and/or what it needs to change to.

    So, they say, no point in a referendum now, because the EU as it is now is changing. Therefore, we need to try to negotiate the best pisition we can going forward, THEN decide if we're better off in or out, with current policy being 'in'.

    The position, therefore, is logical.

    The incoherence is about what the position needs to be to determine whether the party will support in or out, what the mi imum improvements would be, and if we can't get any material changes, quite what the party position would then be, re: in or out.

    For me, personally, the situation is pretty simple. We need a referendum, and for a couple if reasons. One is that the EU now, and the Common Market we joined, are WAY different, and that our current membership has no democratic mandate from the people.

    And second, the first point a large part of why the eurosceptic position has quite a lot of traction with the people. And the only way to defuse that is, whether we end up in or out, to get a democratic mandate.

    So, my position would be, by all neans try a renegotiation, but then, like Scotland, both the in and out camp ought to make their case to the people, and then the people decide in a referendum.

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    Re: Labour party position and EU Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    So, my position would be, by all neans try a renegotiation, but then, like Scotland, both the in and out camp ought to make their case to the people, and then the people decide in a referendum.
    And should it come to that, lets hope they word the question in the right way.

    The Scottish one is terrible, and certainly isn't the question they're campaigning for, it should be "Do you want Scotland to be an independent country"

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