Ebay buyer question

[Flibb]

Sort of a warranty guarantee question.

I am looking at buying a laptop on ebay, and one that I am considering was made by Rock who are no longer around.
The laptop in question is listed as new and from a business seller and is sold as buy it now. I assume that the Sale of Goods Act applies, and that I could expect the laptop to last a year, and so should have more than the quoated 30 day warranty. Just wondered if others see things the same, or have dealt with this kind of thing.

[0iD]

One for the almighty Saracen to answer with his accustomed brevity ...

[g8ina]

Yes.

[Saracen]

Yes.

... and no.

The thing to remember, Flibb, is that "warranty" ( in UK law at least) and Sale of Goods Act (SoGA) rights are different things. Part of the confusion comes from EU directives that refer to a minimum "warranty", but what that directive means in UK law isn't actually about "warranty" but about a minimum period for which SoGA laws must apply.

In the UK (well, except Scotland which, as usual, does things a bit differently) SoGA rights mean, essentially, things must be fit for purpose, as described and of "reasonable" quality. And if they're not, the seller is in breach of contract and you can sue them, if they don't rectify the situation willingly.

However, there are two main limitations on that. First, it ONLY applies to faults that existed, even if not obvious or visible at time of purchase . And the issue is often proving whether a fault was "inherent", in that way, or whether it's the result of subsequent accident, abuse, misuse, etc. So, the law changed a few years ago so that any fault is presumed to be inherent for 6 months, and the seller is liable unless THEY can prove otherwise. After 6 months, that burden of proof reverses, so the seller has no such liability unless YOU can prove the fault was inherent.

So, because another law says the limitations on most civil claims is 7 years, the SoGA means you can sue for up to a maximum of 7 years provided that,

a) the goods are less than 6 months old and the seller cannot prove accident, misuse, etc, or
b) the goids are more and 6 months old but you can prove the fault was inherent at time of purchase, and

c) in either case, they did not last a "reasonable" length of time.

Helpfully (not) "reasonable" is not defined. It is, ultimately, what the court is convinced it is. There are some guidelines, but no fast rules. Why? Well, goods vary. You'd expect a house to last longer than a car, which lasts longer than a banana. But they're all "goods".


Okay, so that's the (very) simplified version of SoGA rights. Now to "warranty". As generally meant in the UK, it's essentially a guarantee offered by the manufacturer, and or seller.

The seller CANNOT avoid their SoGA obligations, but they don't have to offer a warranty at all. If they do offer one, then they can be held to it, and there are laws about what they can say, and how they can say it. For instance, in must be in plain English, not pages of legal mumbo-jumbo designed to obfuscate and periphrase .... if you get my point.


So ..... if I'm a business selling you, say, a laptop, I don't have to offer you a warranty, but I AM bound by the SoGA. If I offer a warranty, then you get what I offer you, subject to terms of that warranty. If I say 14 days, you have 14 days. If I say, 30 days, 6 months or until the sun goes supernova, that's what you get. If I offer a warranty subject to goods being unused, so be it. If I offer 1000 years of warranty against your laptop being sat on by an elephant, it's not covered for elephant backside damage at 1000 years and a minute, but it is until then. Just don't get it sat on by a rhinoceros because, that not being an elephant, you're not covered at all.


Anyway, despite the rather silly examples, the point is two-fold. First, SoGA cover is mandatory and unavoidable, but you get what the law says you get, and not a thing more or less, whatever you or the seller claim. And ONLY the retailer is bound by it, not the manufacturer.

Second, warranties are basically whatever the seller or manufacturer chooses to offer, or not, but they can be held to them.



And one overall caveat. Just because you have theoretical cover doesn't mean it can necessarily be enforced.

Suppose I want to sell on eBay. I set up a small limited company, and sell you a laptop. I'm honest, but not very good at business, and the company is barely solvent, has little or no assets .... and you sue. Fine. I close the company, and there's nothing for you to sue against. Providing, as a director, I was acting within the company constitution, haven't given personal guarantees and am not acting fraudulently, MY assets are beyond your reach, or that of a court.

So .... SoGA or not, neither a court not debt collectors can enforce a decision when there's nothing to seize.

So .... is the eBay seller someone likely to honour either warranty or SoGA obligations, or are they likely to vanish in the event of problems? Theoretical legal rights don't always help in the real world, and WILL involve time, hassle and costs if you try to use them, perhaps for no gain in the end.

[Saracen]

One for the almighty Saracen to answer with his accustomed brevity ...

Wot, me?

You must be getting me confused with someone else, mate. I'm the very essence of brevity, being concise and insightful to the brink of being terse.


I'll get me coat. And hat. And shoes, scarf and umbrella. Anyone seen where I left my briefcase. And .....

[Flibb]

Cheers for the advice. I did a bi of searching on ebay and various sites including some of the local trading standards, its interesting when you compare what some fo the large business sellers on ebay put on the T&Cs that are against SOGA.

I will have a bit of a think about this particular laptop, its well over my inital budget, but it packs a significant punch per ££.

[OilSheikh]

My 2 cents - Warranty is provided by the manufacturer not the seller. And, since ROCK no longer exist, there goes your warranty.

[Saracen]

My 2 cents - Warranty is provided by the manufacturer not the seller. And, since ROCK no longer exist, there goes your warranty.

Can be either. Or both.

Argos, as a retailer, provides a 16(??) day warranty if you change your mind. My tailor provides a 6-day warranty against ANY reason you wish to return, including that your dog ate a shirt sleeve. Or, I have a food processor with a 20-year warranty on the motor. John Lewis, as a retailer, provide a 2-year warranty on a lot of items, and if I remember correctly, 5 years on TVs.

[OilSheikh]

Is it 16 days now for Argos ? Used to be 30 days. I remember buying a Gameboy , playing with it, didn't like it and I returned it for a full refund.

[Saracen]

It used to be 16 days (or maybe 14) but I've just checked their website, and now it's 30 days .... for "most" products. But the terms under which you can take non-faulty oroducts back are, if memory serves, quite a bit more restricted than they used to be. Now, it's 'unused, in original undamaged condition, re-saleable and with receipt'. Without receipt, you get a replacement or voucher refund. And so on.

Which illustrates my earlier point about retailers offering pretty much whatever they like, in terms of cover and (within some statutory limits) restrictions. But they also carefully add "does not affect your statutory rights". So, no attempt to (illegally) restrict SoGA, DSR, etc.

[machapman]

No-one has also mentioned parts availability. I have bought secondhand laptops in the past and have always bought a tier 1 supplier business laptop because I know that I can get parts when something fails.

Regardless of the legal situation once parts become unavailable when something fails your laptop will become junk. Something to bear in mind, particularly when buying secondhand.

[Saracen]

No-one has also mentioned parts availability. I have bought secondhand laptops in the past and have always bought a tier 1 supplier business laptop because I know that I can get parts when something fails.

Regardless of the legal situation once parts become unavailable when something fails your laptop will become junk. Something to bear in mind, particularly when buying secondhand.

True, but it doesn't affect your statutory rights. If such a laptop fails, from an inherent fault, within a "reasonable" period, it doesn't let the retailer off the hook, though it'll change what the remedy is.

If a device cannot be repaired or replaced, you will be entitled to a refund, albeit that it may be partial.

If, in such circumstances, "reasonable life" was 5 years (60 months) and your laptop was, say, 23 months old, the retailer is entitled to make a deduction reflecting that from a refund of the purchase price. So, for an £800 laptop, you shoud get 37/60ths of £800 back. Of course, it's for a court, presumably small claims variety, to determine if "fair use" is 5 years, 7 years, 2 years, or whatever.