Guadian tired of Kremlin trolls.

[j1979]

None of these sources back up the explicit claims the article makes. You've completely missed the point of what I find so moronic about that article.

I'm not disputing that people pay people to comment and review stuff on the internet.

I'm suggesting that it's moronic to the highest order, in no way conducive to any kind of peaceful co-existence, to disregard anything you disagree with as some kind of paid shill.

Strange view. You see if i search on the internet for anything on google. I will never find a .ru website unless the article is in English.

Are you suggesting there is an army of Russians searching the internet in a different language with a different alphabet?

The same in reverse. Russians searching on яandex won't find English articles, unless they search in latin even then geolocation of search engines are unlikely to have a guardian article as the top search result.

So how are these Russians homing in on the Guardian? or are you suggesting they are all UK based Russians, if so where are the counter Ukrainian arguments who are equally passionate?

[peterb]

I suppose the lesson to be (re) learned is to remember that any post on any forum may be not be what it seems, and anything posted anonymously (or quasi anonymously) should be treated with suspicion as the poster may have a (not so) hidden agenda.

[TooNice]

So how are these Russians homing in on the Guardian? or are you suggesting they are all UK based Russians, if so where are the counter Ukrainian arguments who are equally passionate?

I tend to ignore the comment section in newspapers/YouTube etc. especially on extremely divisive subjects, so I am not planning to look for counter Ukrainian arguments though I would be surprised if there aren't any at all. But would it be reasonable to think that there is a far larger number of Russians in the UK than Ukrainians? I do not doubt the possibility of paid shill, but I question whether every comments are from a paid shill. I notice something similar on CNN. Whenever there is a sensitive topic involving China, there is a storm comments from Chinese posters criticising the articles. One could easily dismiss them as shills too, and again, I wouldn't be surprised some may be too. But at the same time, the population in China is so huge (as is nationalism), so it takes only a tiny fraction of a percent to voice their opinion to potentially overwhelm other voice.

I will add at this point, since Zak's thread was closed before I could submit my 2 cents, that it's a bit of a shame that you chose to resurrect a recently closed thread so soon. I do not agree that this subject is really "done", any more than the search for the MH370 etc. and other current, ongoing event. And the way I see it, Hexus's GD is over 50% about current event anyway. This forum has never stood out as a place for really random topics, forums games and such. Certainly there are more "serious" topics here than other places. And I am not a big fan of the (your) consistent re-bumping and would have preferred if it was done sporadically (with edits in betweens), but it is a bit of a shame that if some really big development (sorry, but I do not think this thread counts - at least relative to what else is happening) was to happen tomorrow, this subject would remain taboo to discuss. I do hope that the restriction exclude QT sub-forum, but it was not made really clear in the now locked thread Zak made.

[Zak33]

I do hope that the restriction exclude QT sub-forum, but it was not made really clear in the now locked thread Zak made.

you may debate it in there. Debate..

[Saracen]

@TooNice ...

I think Zak has addressed the QT question now.

As for the locked thread, it was turning into more of a blog than a discussion, kept on page 1 by constant bumping.

Personally, I don't see any problem with major events prompting a discussion in a new thread, but I would stress "major" events, and "discussion", not crusade. And the mods reserve the right to judge, and decide, on both points.


EDIT - dammit, beaten by Zak's ninja typing skills. Again.

[TheAnimus]

So how are these Russians homing in on the Guardian? or are you suggesting they are all UK based Russians, if so where are the counter Ukrainian arguments who are equally passionate?

Again, you are in no way providing any evidence that this is what is happening.

You take any pro russian voice, and say immediately, that they have to be a troll, a paid stooge, that no one would ever support their regime. People supported the worst political systems, people have throughout history aligned themselves with views that hinder what they claim to want. People are dumb.

Again, I am not doubting that there will be people who are in both senses of the word tools. But you've this horrible idea that any voice that is different, must be one of these. It's as if your views are so perfect, anyone who doesn't share them verbatim can not be real.

If they had traced say 80% of the pro-russian comments to an IP addy belonging to that company, you'd have a very good point. The fact is they didn't. To summise it's just people said something I don't agree with, someone pays people to say that sometimes, ergo all people who say something I don't agree with must be being paid.

It's frankly boring, infuriating and sickening.

[j1979]

Again, you are in no way providing any evidence that this is what is happening.

You take any pro russian voice, and say immediately, that they have to be a troll, a paid stooge, that no one would ever support their regime. People supported the worst political systems, people have throughout history aligned themselves with views that hinder what they claim to want. People are dumb.

Again, I am not doubting that there will be people who are in both senses of the word tools. But you've this horrible idea that any voice that is different, must be one of these. It's as if your views are so perfect, anyone who doesn't share them verbatim can not be real.

If they had traced say 80% of the pro-russian comments to an IP addy belonging to that company, you'd have a very good point. The fact is they didn't. To summise it's just people said something I don't agree with, someone pays people to say that sometimes, ergo all people who say something I don't agree with must be being paid.

It's frankly boring, infuriating and sickening.

you say it's a fact, yet you don't know that the guardian didn't check IP's!

Also out of 140 million people only 2500 list their first language as English. I was asking you where you think these people are coming from?

If Russian why are they searching in English/Latin, when they all have Cyrillic keyboards and mainly use yandex

and if you think they are UK based, then the sheer number is not representative.

seen as you have an interest in the thread, I was simply asking, where do you think they come from?

[TheAnimus]

you say it's a fact, yet you don't know that the guardian didn't check IP's!

I GIVE UP. Read what you are saying in that quote.

Where is this evidence they did so? I'm not saying that they didn't, I'm not saying that it isn't a possibility that they are all paid stooges..... I'm saying that claiming this to be the case whilst having a strong political opposing view is erm, well it just makes you look a bit conspiracy level ignorant, that type of wilful intolerance.

The police in the UK have some guns, that does not mean every shooting that happens is because of the police. Yet this is the exact kind of logic you are using. "look they have these people", yet presenting no evidence that it is entirely down to them, you claim it is.

I mean, read your bit of text I've quoted. Read it. Let it sink in. Your suggesting that they checked this and didn't publish this? How stupid is that. That would have been a great story, easily verifiable too.

You dismiss outright that anyone would support, or think that way. Look at how many people believe in religions that are insane, that stand up to no critical thought or thinking. People are really, really stupid. Why can't you accept that some, think differently to you, without them being a paid stooge?!

[kalniel]

Didn't the guardian article basically say it was a moderators 'feeling'? I can't remember the exact words, but it was definitely an opinion piece based off comments rather than a news piece in which statements would be carefully sourced and checked.

The other thing I got from the article was that the numbers were small, and by far the bigger problem was with posters accusing other posters of being shills than the actual supposedly shill comments themselves.

[walibe]

The smartest comment on this thread so far has been to basically not believe everything written on the internet.

Any of you that believe governments don't spend time trying to influence events through social engineering are living in a very delusional state.

I work in cyber security. Tracing an I.P address doesn't tell you a whole lot really. My I.P address isn't a UK one much of the time when I'm trying things out, yet I'm usually sat here in the UK. It's not exactly difficult.

Russia is at its heart a good country but with Putin in charge it just leads the country into further and further isolation after decades of reform and building of ties with the west.

Ukraine will one day be an EU member, and Russia dislikes this. Let's not forget how far the EU is starting to stretch now and I would say most of these former soviet countries have done very well and will continue to do so.

We have gone to war with countries that have done less than the Russians in recent months.

[TooNice]

You know, a lot of people can communicate very well with English as their second, or even third language. Japanese is my 4th spoken language (third written), and I have posted in Japanese online community even before coming to Japan. I am admittedly not familiar with Cyrillic keyboards, but I can say that Japanese and Chinese keyboards do not make it that difficult to type in English. But anyway, my view is that the Guardian should just introduce an "User Ignore" system (if there isn't one). In the end, if you really believe someone being a troll/shill/whatnot, it doesn't really believe if s/he is or not, you aren't going to listen anyway, so you may as well not bother.

Didn't the guardian article basically say it was a moderators 'feeling'?

"In fairness there is no conclusive evidence about who is behind the trolling, although Guardian moderators, who deal with 40,000 comments a day, believe there is an orchestrated campaign."

It is pretty hard to "prove" those things in my opinion, without a sure way of identifying the user behind each account.

[j1979]

I tend to ignore the comment section in newspapers/YouTube etc. especially on extremely divisive subjects, so I am not planning to look for counter Ukrainian arguments though I would be surprised if there aren't any at all. But would it be reasonable to think that there is a far larger number of Russians in the UK than Ukrainians? I do not doubt the possibility of paid shill, but I question whether every comments are from a paid shill. I notice something similar on CNN. Whenever there is a sensitive topic involving China, there is a storm comments from Chinese posters criticising the articles. One could easily dismiss them as shills too, and again, I wouldn't be surprised some may be too. But at the same time, the population in China is so huge (as is nationalism), so it takes only a tiny fraction of a percent to voice their opinion to potentially overwhelm other voice.

I will add at this point, since Zak's thread was closed before I could submit my 2 cents, that it's a bit of a shame that you chose to resurrect a recently closed thread so soon. I do not agree that this subject is really "done", any more than the search for the MH370 etc. and other current, ongoing event. And the way I see it, Hexus's GD is over 50% about current event anyway. This forum has never stood out as a place for really random topics, forums games and such. Certainly there are more "serious" topics here than other places. And I am not a big fan of the (your) consistent re-bumping and would have preferred if it was done sporadically (with edits in betweens), but it is a bit of a shame that if some really big development (sorry, but I do not think this thread counts - at least relative to what else is happening) was to happen tomorrow, this subject would remain taboo to discuss. I do hope that the restriction exclude QT sub-forum, but it was not made really clear in the now locked thread Zak made.

I'm not suggesting, 100% paid shill / troll. But from Russia Today's distortion service, to Россия24 (Russia24)'s outright lies, the world really should be fully aware of the scale of the propaganda flood. The Guardian is simply a drop in the ocean.

It's dangerous and weak minds are easily lead, that's why i feel so strongly and am overly passionate. Because in my view people that stand for nothing, will fall for everything.

I think some people should really concede that while some voices are silenced many fake stories and voices are coming from the within the Russia Federation.

I did try to edit more towards the end, but on some posts I reached the word limit for a single post. Actually I didn't start the main Ukraine situation thread in GD. It was split from another thread I took off topic. I only started this thread and the one that was moved to QT.

I just wanted a reason. If it's because they want more cozy threads that are family orientated then, just why doesn't one of the mods give this as a reason, it's a reasonable reason.

I am so involved with the situation now, that I can't see it fizzling out, sure the event may lose the lime light for a few days, weeks, or even months from time to time. But Russia are passing so many laws, they are gearing for war. and the internet paid or non paid trolls are part of that.

It's my last word on the greater situation around the wider subject. I will respect the Hexus admins and shut up about Ukraine/ Russia / Crimea.


However I would prefer it if the QT thread was left open, for updates because the situation will escalate further.

[j1979]

I GIVE UP. Read what you are saying in that quote.

Where is this evidence they did so? I'm not saying that they didn't, I'm not saying that it isn't a possibility that they are all paid stooges..... I'm saying that claiming this to be the case whilst having a strong political opposing view is erm, well it just makes you look a bit conspiracy level ignorant, that type of wilful intolerance.

The police in the UK have some guns, that does not mean every shooting that happens is because of the police. Yet this is the exact kind of logic you are using. "look they have these people", yet presenting no evidence that it is entirely down to them, you claim it is.

I mean, read your bit of text I've quoted. Read it. Let it sink in. Your suggesting that they checked this and didn't publish this? How stupid is that. That would have been a great story, easily verifiable too.

You dismiss outright that anyone would support, or think that way. Look at how many people believe in religions that are insane, that stand up to no critical thought or thinking. People are really, really stupid. Why can't you accept that some, think differently to you, without them being a paid stooge?!

You said it was a "fact" they didn't check IP's

where is your proof they didn't check them?

by the way, I never said they did check them. you just claimed a fact, where there is no fact.

[Zak33]

However I would prefer it if the QT thread was left open, for updates because the situation will escalate further.

its for debate.. not update

it's not a news thread

[j1979]

You know, a lot of people can communicate very well with English as their second, or even third language. Japanese is my 4th spoken language (third written), and I have posted in Japanese online community even before coming to Japan. I am admittedly not familiar with Cyrillic keyboards, but I can say that Japanese and Chinese keyboards do not make it that difficult to type in English. But anyway, my view is that the Guardian should just introduce an "User Ignore" system (if there isn't one). In the end, if you really believe someone being a troll/shill/whatnot, it doesn't really believe if s/he is or not, you aren't going to listen anyway, so you may as well not bother.


"In fairness there is no conclusive evidence about who is behind the trolling, although Guardian moderators, who deal with 40,000 comments a day, believe there is an orchestrated campaign."

Japanese, impressive! thats got to be a difficult one. I tried the first lesson on Rosetta stone once. Russian was hard enough but Japanese was a total head re-arranger.

I can communicate in Russian (just) with some help. but I don't really do my browsing in Russian, unless I am looking for something specific that can only be found in Russian.

I'm passionate on the subject, but I wouldn't dream of posting in a Russian forum or comments section, because the meaning is so easy to misinterpret and it's censored anyway.

[j1979]

its for debate.. not update

it's not a news thread

Point taken, but someone other than me may want to post on the subject in the future. This is not an overnight issue. it's ongoing.