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Thread: MEP Elections

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    mush-mushroom b0redom's Avatar
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    MEP Elections

    Surprised there's not already a thread about this. Does anyone have a handy link summarising the policies of the major parties for the EU elections?

    It's quite clear what Mr Griffin stands for.
    It's reasonably clear what Mr Farrage's views are.

    I've seen nothing for the three main parties.

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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: MEP Elections

    Broadly speaking:

    Lib Dem - pro europe
    Conservative - use threat of referendum to try and improve bargaining position in europe
    Labour - seem to be trying to say what people want to hear rather than having a clear position. My take is they are actually really close to the conservative position but can't say so as that gets you no-where if you're in opposition.

    How that affects MEP elections is slightly nuanced, but it still drives attitude/helpfulness in european parliament.
    Last edited by kalniel; 21-05-2014 at 11:43 AM. Reason: added links to parties EUP pages

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    mush-mushroom b0redom's Avatar
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    Re: MEP Elections

    Wow, the labour party website is really awful. It would be interesting to see a proper debate on Europe to hear the various view points.

    I don't believe in Farage's extremist 'they're all coming over here to steal your jobs' views, but neither do I believe in Clegg's headline 3 million jobs are solely dependent upon us being in Europe, and think of all the criminals who would escape without pan European arrest warrants.

    I think the reality is somewhere in the middle, but I guess that's not sensational enough for the press....

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    Re: MEP Elections

    I was in a european school and the EU administration has a power struggle with the local governments, i think that EU is well enough established as it is, it needs 10 20 years to mature before any further integrations happen.

    It simply doesnt make sense to integrate any more until the current systems are balanced out. Previously, labour was fairand strict with the eu, conservative fair strict and wary. lib dem, are lovely but they never have clear policies, it's a scandal.

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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: MEP Elections

    Thing is, these aren't really the elections to decide what Britain's role in the EU is, these are more about what alliances we make within Europe that help sway the EUs position on things. Hence Labour being part of a wider socialist party confederation. To go into what the parties MEPs would do is largely a case of going into European politics, which is an even more exasperating task than UK politics, which is why no-one bothers. The exception is the parties who go in with the aim of being a waste of money and disruptive. They are horrendous IMHO, but they're getting in on the back of national politics, which are kind of a different matter - but still, you might be able to see how helpful individual MEPs would be on the basis of their parties, though when they're in a confederation there's probably even less direct tie in.

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    Re: MEP Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by b0redom View Post
    ....

    I don't believe in Farage's extremist 'they're all coming over here to steal your jobs' views, ....
    To be fair, that 's not what Farage said. It's what the other parties keep saying he said. What he actually said, paraphrasing not quoting, is that "they all can come over here ...".

    It's a more nuanced position than is being portrayed. The point is because we're in the EU, we CANNOT control our borders. We cannot determine how, who or how many, come here, ftom the EU.

    In other words, do we want to be able to control our borders, or is not being able to do so a price worth paying as part of the price of EU membership? Make no mistake, not being able to control our borders has a cost. That is not an argument against immigration, much (but not all) of which is good for the UK. It's an argument about lack of control .... versus, if you like, an argument about the upside of free movement of labour.

    I just wish we could get an actual, proper, sensible debate over these things out of our politicians (of all parties) instead of the usual trite distortions and mis-quoted soundbites, often with a side portion of accusations of either xenophobia or outright racism.

    There is an argument saying why we should be out if the EU. In fact, several, and on grounds of both economics and democratic legitimacy. And there are arguments ehy we should be in, as well as exactly what we are in should be .... I.e. EU reform. It seems to me that most, if not all, UK parties want reform, but not necessarily the same reforms. It also seems that most other major EU nations want reform, though definitely not all want the same reform.

    In theory, MEP elections SHOULD be about us, the people, being represented in the European Parliament. But the simple fact is it won't be, because most people feel disconnected enough from UK politicians, and don't really give 3/4 of 5/8ths of a fig about EU politicians. Instead, it'll be a mix of a semi-referendum on EU membership and a protest vote at UK politicians. And that is among the relatively small proportion of the electorate expected to get up off their lazy, apathetic or disenchanted behinds and actually bother to go to vote at all.

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    Re: MEP Elections

    I had to laugh when the LibDems leaflet came through, apparently they are the only party to be actively working to "keep British jobs".

    Presumably by giving the jobs to europeans, who then live here and the LibDems can claim they are classed as British on residency grounds.

    Failing that, its just their fear of the unknown, ie that leaving the EU would immediately cause massive job losses in the UK, so we should keep the status quo and bend over for our regular EU mandated shaftings.

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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: MEP Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    In theory, MEP elections SHOULD be about us, the people, being represented in the European Parliament. But the simple fact is it won't be, because most people feel disconnected enough from UK politicians, and don't really give 3/4 of 5/8ths of a fig about EU politicians. Instead, it'll be a mix of a semi-referendum on EU membership and a protest vote at UK politicians. And that is among the relatively small proportion of the electorate expected to get up off their lazy, apathetic or disenchanted behinds and actually bother to go to vote at all.
    It would be nice if we heard anything about any of the main EUP groups and their policies, but we don't. We don't even have anyone standing (as far as I know) who would join the largest grouping in the EUP (the centre-right EPP) - a quite ridiculous situation.

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    Re: MEP Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    It would be nice if we heard anything about any of the main EUP groups and their policies, but we don't. We don't even have anyone standing (as far as I know) who would join the largest grouping in the EUP (the centre-right EPP) - a quite ridiculous situation.
    I sort-of agree, but I wonder what proportion of UK voters (and maybe other EU states, for all I know) know anything about groups, what they stand for or who is in them?

    The most natural party for the EPP would probably be the Tories (and, IIRC, they were until Cameron took them out). The problem us that the EPP are formly behind ever-greater integration and while basically centre-right, the Tories most definitely aren't behind that policy.

    So, voters now not only have try to undestand UK party policy positions, but EU group policy positions, and which party is in which group? Too much like hard work for most, I suspect, so they transfer UK voting intentions and vote for the same party in the EUs as they would in a UK general election (except for protest or anti-EU votes) which, of course, is about largely different issues.

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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: MEP Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    The most natural party for the EPP would probably be the Tories (and, IIRC, they were until Cameron took them out). The problem us that the EPP are formly behind ever-greater integration and while basically centre-right, the Tories most definitely aren't behind that policy.
    Quite, but it leaves anyone who might want that option with no means to express it - and far from talking about lack of representation for some minority view, this is the largest EUP party!

    (Apart from the pro-London 4 Freedoms party, but if you're outside of London you're out of luck, true of so many things..)

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    Re: MEP Elections

    Probably going to vote UKIP even if some of the people behind it are slightly nutty. In the context of European elections a simple 'no' is enough for me - who cares about other policies. I'm not even rabidly anti-EU, and am quite pro the old idea of an economic free trade zone, BUT, I just want a clear limit to EU growth and nobody else really seems to give that option. Tories, almost, but not quite - strategically i probably vote for them in general elections to get the referendum as UKIP are a non-starter there.

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    Re: MEP Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by wasabi View Post
    .... Tories, almost, but not quite - strategically i probably vote for them in general elections to get the referendum as UKIP are a non-starter there.
    Well, traditionally, yeah. But that (IMHO, of course) is a by-product of two things - a natural bias (from reluctance to change, electoral inertia, if you like) for "established" parties under FPTP, and a lack of credibility in electoral chances. That might, and I stress MIGHT be changing.

    For a start, independent of overall party loyalties, a lot of people are either sceptical about EU membership working for this country, and the more all our major political parties take that line without giving US, the people, a say, the more pee'd off a lot of people are getting, and the more entrenched in an 'anti' position. It adds to the sense of disconnect between 'normal' people and the political elite, and the sense that they don't trust us to get it right if they let us decide.

    But also, a lot of people, me included, seem to have reasoned, over the years, that there's no point in voting for X party because they won't win, and it might let in Y party, that I really don't want. However, UKIP have done very well in the last EU and local elections (where they stood) and in a couple of by-elections, and that has gained them credibility.

    If, as seems very possible, they win the EU elections, and polling suggests the worst result that's reasonably plausible is a close second) then THAT will add considerably to credibility for a general election.

    I don't, personally, think the odds are at all good of winning the GE. In fact, I'd say it's very long odds indeed. BUT .... they could well grab a few seats. They just might either become the 3rd party, given the dire predictions for LDs, or perhaps, end up as 3rd or 4th in a new 4-party system, and THAT changes electoral maths significantly. We could, possibly, end up with a Tory/UKIP coalition rather than a Tory/LD one.

    Or, very possibly, even succrss at the EU's doesn't translate to similar at a GE. Who knows.

    My point, really, is that IF (as expected) UKIP do REALLY well in the EUs tomorrow, we will be in entirely uncharted political waters, and it's going to make the transition to the GE, and the inreroretation of intermediate polling results, quite hard to interpret.

    We could well be looking at the end of the two-party domination, and a political world in the UK containing much more coalition politics. Or, UKIP could fizzle out. And, if we get an EU referendum and the population vote "stay in" it could boost the LD stance and be a UKIP death sentence. Ironically, if we vote "leave" that could also finish UKIP, as their raison d'etre kinda vanishes at that point.

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    Re: MEP Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Well, traditionally, yeah. But that (IMHO, of course) is a by-product of two things - a natural bias (from reluctance to change, electoral inertia, if you like) for "established" parties under FPTP, and a lack of credibility in electoral chances. That might, and I stress MIGHT be changing.
    I suspect a more likely result of FPTP is that UKIP decimate the Tories by splitting the natural centre-right voter base, plus LibDems flop with their natural supporters returning to Labour. Thus I predict a Labour landslide, worse-luck. Which I'll hate but take consolation in Cameron suffering under his anti-PR stance.

    Only gotcha in my theory is that Miliband is a naturally unpersonable slimeball that many people simply won't get off the sofa to vote for.

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    Re: MEP Elections

    Anti-PR, or anti-AV?

    After it, it was us, the peeple, wot decided no to AV. And it was AV, not PR, that we were offered.

    The next GE, under PR, though .... well, I'm sure that notion would have Farage salivating, if current EU polls are accurate.

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    Re: MEP Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by wasabi View Post
    ....

    Only gotcha in my theory is that Miliband is a naturally unpersonable slimeball that many people simply won't get off the sofa to vote for.
    Did you hear the Radio Swindon (I think) radio interview with Miliband today, where basically he was shown up as not knowing who the local Labour leader was, or even who (Tories) controlled the local council? Yet, he pretended, stupidly, to know, and it was so, SOOOO obvious that the interviewer had him confused, and pretending to know who Jim something was?

    It was replayed on Daily Politics today. On again, IIRC, on the DailyPol rerun at midnight-ish on News 24. It's only a couple of minutes, but it's worth listen just to hear a politician lying his ass off, caught and knowing it, but refusing to admit it. If you want a first-class, solid gold and diamond-encrusted example of why people don't trust politicians, that's it.

  16. #16
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    Re: MEP Elections

    Might go for either Conservatives or UKIP.

    I am completely against mass immigration by Eastern Europeans.
    Our country's infrastructure simply cannot cope with so many people. We already have immigrants coming from rest of the world in the form of students and asylum seekers ( half of Africa due to civil wars in their countries, Iraq, Afghanistan ). Now, we have the whole of East Europe coming here. And, why wouldn't they? Their countries are poor, pay is low and facilities are lacking. In the UK, you can earn more money, get free money even if you don't work in the form of benefits and lead a better life.
    Immigration is good, but uncontrolled immigration can ruin you. We should follow the Middle Eastern countries and have a quota and a work visa system , where you only get to enter the country if a company from the UK has offered you a job and they then arrange for your work visa. When your visa expires, you go back. You also do not get citizenships.

    Our job market has already been left devastated. Years ago, teens could get jobs in fast food outlets during summer or even work part-time for the whole year. The new generation of teens cannot get those jobs because there are no spots available as they have been taken by full-time East European workers.
    Let's say there's an Office Junior role, the employer will favour an EU person more rather than a British worker as they might be more overqualified and have an undergrad or a postgrad degree. The British worker won't stand a chance in these type of scenarios. I read recently that the number of British workers who worked in the construction of the Olympic stadiums was only a few %.

    Personally, I have been affected a bit. When I have early morning flights... At 5 am, when the first LU trains start operating, they used to be empty. Nowdays, the trains are packed even at 5 am! These days I start work at 9 and I can't remember the last time I sat down on my way to work. Forget about getting a seat, train is so packed that you are lucky to even get on! With my local GP, I could get appointments for the same day if I called in the morning. Now, they tell me , we are fully booked for 3 weeks! So, where do I go if I am ill ?

    And, let's not forget the illegal begging. They just sit down wherever they feel like and beg! Most of the squatters are from EU. Crime has also increased - home break-ins, car thefts, pick-pocketings, assasults.

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