so negligence, cruelty to animals, and killing a man by proxy = 1 year jail? WTF?

[peterb]

A friend of mine had a dog from a rescue centre (a German shepherd cross - can't remember what the cross was) Lovely dog, very friendly and appeared good natured. They used a dog trainer to help assess the dog and all seemed to going well. Then after there months or so, one evening the dog started growling. Next day all was fine. That night, the same thing happened. This continued for a few days, then, in the evenings, the dog started barring its teeth. During the day, all was fine. This carried on for two days, with increasing concern to my friend, who contacted the dog trainer. The dog was taken back to the rescue centre that day.

The main problem was that there was no known history about the dog, but it appeared entirely docile for about three months. There was nothing obvious that triggered the aggressive behaviour, it was unpredicted and unpredictable.

[peterb]

You managed to exemplify stupidity, animal cruelty and cause and effect all in 2 sentences. Bravo.

As a pack animal, the (dog) leader of a pack won't hesitate to use 'violence' - a nip, or a bite - to re-enforce his position as leader of the pack and to subjugate a threat. Eventually the leader will be deposed in a fight with a stronger, more agile younger animal. A dog does not understand human social mores. However,

That is not to condone cruelty, I think it unlikely that in the wild, a pack leader would punch another dog on the nose with its paw!

A pack leader will look after the animals in his pack by leading it in hunting, and reward the pack by letting it feed after the kill. Consequently a reward system of training is more likely to be successful than one based on physical punishment.

[opel80uk]

As a pack animal, the (dog) leader of a pack won't hesitate to use 'violence' - a nip, or a bite - to re-enforce his position as leader of the pack and to subjugate a threat. Eventually the leader will be deposed in a fight with a stronger, more agile younger animal. A dog does not understand human social mores. However,

That is not to condone cruelty, I think it unlikely that in the wild, a pack leader would punch another dog on the nose with its paw!

A pack leader will look after the animals in his pack by leading it in hunting, and reward the pack by letting it feed after the kill. Consequently a reward system of training is more likely to be successful than one based on physical punishment.

Of course a pack leader would happily use violence, but part of the point of training a dog for domestic use is to remove some of their natural instincts, and part of that is to remove (some of) their aggressive tendencies. Your comparison of an animal pack leader is misleading, because in the pack violence is the norm, whether it be inside or outside of the pack, but for domestic animals you don’t want them to behave how they would within a pack of other dogs. You want to manipulate their pack mentality and instinct, not reinforce their natural pack behaviour which is dominated in the main by strength and violence.

[wasabi]

Comments like the one of Opel's you quote are why he stays on ignore.

The dog was from a rescue shelter from a year earlier having had a previous life mostly on an industrial estate chained to a portacabin. Not well socialised and very aggressive at first. My mother who in theory was the keeper couldn't cope with the large alpha-male dog so my brother (who lives with them) took over.

I don't advocate going round punching dogs - yet after that the dog got on famously with me. Played ball went for walks, would sit calmly at my feet. Happy. Sadly the upbringing mixed with genes meant it was always going to potentially be trouble and need a top dog to respect. Thus he got put down when only my mother was in charge. Thankfully the dog got 4 to 5 years of freedom that otherwise would have been in the Blue Cross or put down.

[opel80uk]

Comments like the one of Opel's you quote are why he stays on ignore.

The dog was from a rescue shelter from a year earlier having had a previous life mostly on an industrial estate chained to a portacabin. Not well socialised and very aggressive at first. My mother who in theory was the keeper couldn't cope with the large alpha-male dog so my brother (who lives with them) took over.

I don't advocate going round punching dogs - yet after that the dog got on famously with me. Played ball went for walks, would sit calmly at my feet. Happy. Sadly the upbringing mixed with genes meant it was always going to potentially be trouble and need a top dog to respect. Thus he got put down when only my mother was in charge. Thankfully the dog got 4 to 5 years of freedom that otherwise would have been in the Blue Cross or put down.

[deleted, no need for that]

Sadly, what he doesn't understand is that, although by punching the dog may well have asserted his dominance over it, it would have done little to help, and may have reinforced its aggressive behaviour towards others, and is indicative of why some people are just not suitable to look after animals.

[TheAnimus]

Well handbags at dawn aside, animals of any kind, just like humans are best handled if you can get them to respond well to the threat of violence.

From dogs to monkeys to even northerners, raising the back of your hand for a slap staring them straight down works 90% of the time.

When travelling through Northern Thailand / Myanmar I stopped off in Chaing Rai, they had a big of a problem with feral dogs, I'd just parked a car and 3 of them came up barking loudly at me. It's funny because I was getting ready to grab my tripod and a small hunting knife, just like that they lost interest in me, guess they picked up on some change in my stance or some other signal I'm not even aware of.

Plenty of people think of dogs as sweet lovable pets, some are definitely not, it's no different to feral or your pet, if it challenges me in any manner that I find unreasonable, I will disable it, with no care for it's well being, only mine.

Now that bloody monkey on the other hand, such speed. I'd rather fight three dogs than one monkey. I was very lucky I had a 'tech tee' base layer on, it bit right through my top shirt, luckily couldn't puncture my skin through that base layer. He had run away half way up a tree before I'd even realised what had happened. Guess he thought I was intruding on his patch or something.

[BradIey]

Dogs and children must always be watched very carefully regardless of how well behaved the dog is. My last dog I had for 14 years before he passed never once attacked a human but I would still watch him like a hawk when children are around it's just not the kind of risk you can take.

[opel80uk]

Well handbags at dawn aside, animals of any kind, just like humans are best handled if you can get them to respond well to the threat of violence.

From dogs to monkeys to even northerners, raising the back of your hand for a slap staring them straight down works 90% of the time.

Numerous studies have shown that dogs respond far better with positive reinforcement as opposed to those trained with positive punishment, so it’s simply not true to assert that they ‘are best handled if you can get them to respond well to the threat of violence’. In fact, I read a study somewhere (I will try to find it) that dogs trained with the punishment method, when observed by animal behaviourists, displayed far higher levels of fear and aggression, which are both key stressors that can lead dogs to snap.

[peterb]

Of course a pack leader would happily use violence, but part of the point of training a dog for domestic use is to remove some of their natural instincts, and part of that is to remove (some of) their aggressive tendencies. Your comparison of an animal pack leader is misleading, because in the pack violence is the norm, whether it be inside or outside of the pack, but for domestic animals you don’t want them to behave how they would within a pack of other dogs. You want to manipulate their pack mentality and instinct, not reinforce their natural pack behaviour which is dominated in the main by strength and violence.

Which, if you read my post again, you will see that in my last sentence I advocated training by reward rather than one based on violence. But nothing I said earlier about pack behaviour is untrue.

It is breeding that has reduced the more aggressive aspects of dog behaviour to the extent they can be domesticated and trained. However, I agree that training does play a part as there is always the risk of instinct taking over, either because the pack genetic instinct hasn't ben fully bred out, or there is some odd genetic throwback. As I'm neither a dog breeder, nor a geneticist, I can't comment further.

Wasabi announcing that he keeps me on ignore is akin to being told that the local pervert doesn’t fancy me.

Hardly constructive to the discussion - your posts are usually better than that. However, I won't be using punishment based training on you.. this time

Well handbags at dawn aside, animals of any kind, just like humans are best handled if you can get them to respond well to the threat of violence.

I'll remember that when I meet you again

[TheAnimus]

It surely depends on the action.

If any animal does anything remotely aggressive to me, I think it's best to remind it that it won't be tolerated. I don't think some kind of 'nice' reinforcement can work in that setting. You can't allow a bad action to continue unabated.

I'm not saying that you never show kindness.

I'd also say that a well trained dog will not ever require any physical action, just the threat. Hence why so many people use high pitch whistles.

[Zak33]

I'll state again.. not every single dog is capable of turning nasty

some will never ever turn nasty and will die before even snarling.

[wasabi]

I'll state again.. not every single dog is capable of turning nasty

some will never ever turn nasty and will die before even snarling.

I'd take it on 99.9% for some dogs like well cared for golden retrievers or some sheepdogs for example. Mostly. No guarantees. See the big row of sharp teeth, good sense of smell and forward facing eyes? Chances are there are parts of the brain still wired to use that stuff.

But the dog doesn't exist in a vacuum - you need a combination of good training, rewards, appropriate punishment when necessary, care, bonding. But they're not human - we're apes, they're canines.

[Zak33]

/surrenders