Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 33 to 48 of 91

Thread: Natwest are trying to be seen to be doing the right thing

  1. #33
    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    In the middle of a core dump
    Posts
    12,978
    Thanks
    778
    Thanked
    1,586 times in 1,341 posts
    • DanceswithUnix's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus X470-PRO
      • CPU:
      • 5900X
      • Memory:
      • 32GB 3200MHz ECC
      • Storage:
      • 2TB Linux, 2TB Games (Win 10)
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Asus Strix RX Vega 56
      • PSU:
      • 650W Corsair TX
      • Case:
      • Antec 300
      • Operating System:
      • Fedora 39 + Win 10 Pro 64 (yuk)
      • Monitor(s):
      • Benq XL2730Z 1440p + Iiyama 27" 1440p
      • Internet:
      • Zen 900Mb/900Mb (CityFibre FttP)

    Re: Natwest are trying to be seen to be doing the right thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And a second method is simply to pay in cash in supermarkets.
    You are Jack Reacher, outed!

    Actually I do wonder if you try really hard to stay off the radar if that flags up red on government databases.

    What they keep, and/or how they use it, I don't know.
    Well that is pretty easy, having worked in the payment card industry in the past they seemed pretty open about it. They store everything, for as long as they feel they can, as a database of items bought by you. They mine this for trends, then they use the trends for it seems two purposes. Firstly, they want to keep you going to their store not anyone else's, secondly they want you to buy more stuff by recommending things that people with similar spending patterns like.

    So, my local store is a Tesco. Not a great fan of the company (to put it mildly), but I have the club card and use it. They send me money off vouchers for stuff I actually buy rather than random junk, because they know what I buy. They give me money off petrol to try and make me go there, and while I am there I just might buy something in the shop (they hope). Occasionally they send me Tesco shopping vouchers, which I used to get a free Hudl tablet and my wife gets free dresses from the Figleaf website.

    Sainsbury's have much the same with their nectar card and currently 10p off per litre if you spend £60 in store.

    So they are buying my loyalty and giving me targeted adverts. I think I am pretty resistant to advertising, and am happy to take their money.

    I did wonder in my post above if the "to me" bit should be in bold

  2. #34
    Admin (Ret'd)
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    18,481
    Thanks
    1,016
    Thanked
    3,208 times in 2,281 posts

    Re: Natwest are trying to be seen to be doing the right thing

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    You are Jack Reacher, outed!

    Actually I do wonder if you try really hard to stay off the radar if that flags up red on government databases.
    What, 6 foot 5 (or whatever), MP-trained to deal with special forces, knee-dragging arms like a gorilla and fists and feet the size of mid-range battle tanks?

    Shhhh. Everybody'll recognise me in the supermarkets, and start a file.

    I do tend to wash clothes, not throw them away and buy new ones every few days, though.

    As for government databases, dunno. Maybe. Spooks are more than welcome to follow me round supermarkets and read my emails though .... if they are suffering from insomnia, it'd be a great treatment for it.

    On a more serious note, I don't actually use email much these days. When I do, what's in it will either be trivial and meaningless to spooks, or encrypted and therefore perhaps of interest .... until they get past the encryption. I certainly wouldn't be surprised to discover encrypting emails raises eyebrows, but if it's personal (like health or financial matters) to family, or some business emails where confidentiality is involved, damn right it's encrypted. If such activity, or minimal credit card activity for that matter, raises any governmental eyebrows, well, so be it. They're in a for boring conclusion to any investigation, but hey guys, go to it. I can't really believe they need to get a life quite THAT badly, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    ....

    Well that is pretty easy, having worked in the payment card industry in the past they seemed pretty open about it. They store everything, for as long as they feel they can, as a database of items bought by you. They mine this for trends, then they use the trends for it seems two purposes. Firstly, they want to keep you going to their store not anyone else's, secondly they want you to buy more stuff by recommending things that people with similar spending patterns like.

    So, my local store is a Tesco. Not a great fan of the company (to put it mildly), but I have the club card and use it. They send me money off vouchers for stuff I actually buy rather than random junk, because they know what I buy. They give me money off petrol to try and make me go there, and while I am there I just might buy something in the shop (they hope). Occasionally they send me Tesco shopping vouchers, which I used to get a free Hudl tablet and my wife gets free dresses from the Figleaf website.

    Sainsbury's have much the same with their nectar card and currently 10p off per litre if you spend £60 in store.

    So they are buying my loyalty and giving me targeted adverts. I think I am pretty resistant to advertising, and am happy to take their money.

    I did wonder in my post above if the "to me" bit should be in bold
    That was pretty much what I assumed was kept, and from what I understand of it, how it was used. And, I object to it, personally. Information given merely to pay for purchases should not, IMHO, be able to be used for marketing, or processing of personal behavioural patterns, without express, explicit and most importantly, informed consent. And that's not "consent" buried in para 138 of the unintelligible garble that the legalese of most T&Cs is, because that's not really 'informed' let alone consent, but rather, in clear, simple English.

    And this is one place where I draw a clear line between processing card payment, and handing over a reward card. If you use a card for payment, it ought (IMHO, of course) simply be used as payment, not as a key to creating, or updating, detailed personal buying data. However, I don't trust that to not be happening.

    If you hand over a "reward" card, it's certainly clearer to anyone that thinks about it for a moment what the "deal" is. Discounts for data. If, knowing the implications, people want to do it, fine. Not a problem, in my view. But ..... "if".

    I won't use a reward card because I won't agree to that deal. No amount stores offer, or that ever is going to be practical to offer, is ever going to be enough to induce me to agree to that. I value my privacy far more highly than that.

    I do take steps to ensure as much Reacher-style privacy as I reasonably can. That includes, for example, keeping my finances diverse, with multiple banks. And not all are in the UK. Privacy isn't the only reason for that, but it sure helps. I do not, however, hide anything (including money, or bank accounts) from "government", like HMRC. First, I don't have the level of assets that would justify it, and second, it's far more risk and hassle than, to me at least, it's worth.

    But I do take what measures I can to keep corporation's data on me to the absolute minimum.

    I, too, am very advert-resistant. But it's not just that I very rarely let ad's influence me, but also that I get very annoyed when I get pestered. Advertising at me, especially after being asked not to, is distinctly counter-productive. It doesn't influence me to buy, but it might get that firm put on my blacklist.

    Among the litany of things that pi.... irritated the hell out of me, two rank highly. One is junk-mailing me when I've never, ever had a dealing with the company. Saab did that. I'm on the MPS, and don't EVER want unsolicited mail. Period. No exceptions. Yet, mail arrived from Saab. However, when I contacted Saab and, politely, pointed that out, credit where credit's due, they never did it again. Saga, on the other hand, are blacklisted, because after being told I didn't want junk mail, some years ago, it still arrives, the latest being last week. If that wasn't bad enough, they're pestering me with junk for services I'm not even eligible for. So, no way will I EVER use Saga. These days, junk from them arrives and it either ends up on the bonfire, if I'm having one, or I open it, remove and shred any personal info, and recycle the rest. What I don't do is look at the offer, because no way am I taking it.

    Not only am I ad-resistant, but if a company wants to put my back right up, junkmail me. It works very well at that.

    So .... keeping my name out of store databases is, in part, about stopping transaction storage, data warehousing and data mining, but it's also about minimising any incentive for mailing me. If they don't have my name, they can't claim a pre-existing relationship so don't have that excuse for not filtering me out via the MPS. It cuts my junk mail volumes down, at least from those that apply MPS filters.

    As for Tesco, years ago I had a dispute in-store. The duty managed refused to supply something they are legally required to supply (long and boring story). I complained to Customer Service at Head Office, who promised (hah!) to "investigate", and get back to me. That was the last I heard from them. Well, they'll (perhaps) get more business from me after HQ honour their promise, but not until. Tesco is my nearest store, but I took to going out of my way to go elsewhere. That happened to be Waitrose, and guess what? I found I FAR preferred both store, and for the main part, product range.

    So now, I mainly use Waitrose, sometimes Sainsbury or Asda, periodically get certain things from Aldi and others from LIDL, and, when we're away and not close to Waitrose, we use a local Morrisons. But Tesco? Nah. Haven't bought anything in one for, oh, 10 years? More? Nice going, Customer Service.

    But NONE of them get credit or debit card. Not even Waitrose, and I am generally impressed with their customer service, and company ethos. Reward cards? I don't have, or want, any.

  3. Received thanks from:

    Noxvayl (01-08-2014)

  4. #35
    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    In the middle of a core dump
    Posts
    12,978
    Thanks
    778
    Thanked
    1,586 times in 1,341 posts
    • DanceswithUnix's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus X470-PRO
      • CPU:
      • 5900X
      • Memory:
      • 32GB 3200MHz ECC
      • Storage:
      • 2TB Linux, 2TB Games (Win 10)
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Asus Strix RX Vega 56
      • PSU:
      • 650W Corsair TX
      • Case:
      • Antec 300
      • Operating System:
      • Fedora 39 + Win 10 Pro 64 (yuk)
      • Monitor(s):
      • Benq XL2730Z 1440p + Iiyama 27" 1440p
      • Internet:
      • Zen 900Mb/900Mb (CityFibre FttP)

    Re: Natwest are trying to be seen to be doing the right thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And this is one place where I draw a clear line between processing card payment, and handing over a reward card. If you use a card for payment, it ought (IMHO, of course) simply be used as payment, not as a key to creating, or updating, detailed personal buying data. However, I don't trust that to not be happening.
    It is actually rather hard. I know Tesco for one wanted to cross reference purchases to card account number some years ago, but the encryption rules for credit cards were such that they couldn't. I have been out of the industry for a few years now, that might have changed, but I suspect not.

  5. #36
    Admin (Ret'd)
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    18,481
    Thanks
    1,016
    Thanked
    3,208 times in 2,281 posts

    Re: Natwest are trying to be seen to be doing the right thing

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    It is actually rather hard. I know Tesco for one wanted to cross reference purchases to card account number some years ago, but the encryption rules for credit cards were such that they couldn't. I have been out of the industry for a few years now, that might have changed, but I suspect not.
    You may well be right. But, data warehousing and data mining bring what they are, it's impossible to be sure what may happen in the future.

    Suppose, for instance, all item data on a transaction is given a unique key, generated by hsving the same credit dard number on the transaction. Maybe what gets stored is an MP5 hash. That way, no credit card data is stored, or reverse engineerable, but yet, transactions can still be key linked. The key and credit card number don't have to be stored together, but if at ANY point, thay unique ID gets linked to a real person's name, tnen ALL associated data is linked. And, they have your name from the credit card transaction. Depending on that name, it's very likely it could be linked to an address, especially local to a store. And if you have any other services, like insurance, bank account, whatever ....

    It may sound like paranoia, but I do know the power of links and data mining, and once a link is established just once, even to previously "anonymous" data, it's established for good.

    Hence, I don't give corporates ANY information I don't absolutely have to, and more than a few times, have walked away entirely rather than supply, for instance, phone number. An example of that would be Anglian double glazing. I wanted a quote for whole house external replacement. Every single door and window. Without a phone number, Anglian wouldn't even book the appointment. Fair enough. They didn't get the phone number, and a competitor got the work.

  6. #37
    The Old Fox csgohan4's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    The Fox Hole
    Posts
    1,057
    Thanks
    172
    Thanked
    57 times in 52 posts
    • csgohan4's system
      • Motherboard:
      • MSI Z97 Gaming 9 AC
      • CPU:
      • I7 4770K with Noctua-D15
      • Memory:
      • G SKILL 2400Mhz 8GB
      • Storage:
      • Samsung 840 Evo 500 GB| Seagate 1TB + 1.5TB
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVGA GTX 780 ACX
      • PSU:
      • Corsair AX 860
      • Case:
      • HAF X with NF-S12B FLX, TY-140, X4 Coolermaster Megaflow 200mm and Demciflex Dust Flters
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 8.1 Pro
      • Monitor(s):
      • LG 24inch LCD W2468L
      • Internet:
      • Sky Fibre Unlimited with Asus DSL N66U

    Re: Natwest are trying to be seen to be doing the right thing

    The Natwest credit card is pretty pants for those who pay their balances in full every month plus you have to pay an annual fee. I prefer credit cards that have cash back for free or offer incentives for a fee like the santander 1-2-3 credit card/ account. Saved quite a bit over the years.
    Trust Profile HEXUS Forum FAQ and Colour coding/Post Count awards

    'The Fox is cunning and relentless, and has got his Fibre Optic Broadband'

  7. #38
    Ninja Noxvayl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    In the shadows
    Posts
    2,451
    Thanks
    748
    Thanked
    215 times in 173 posts
    • Noxvayl's system
      • Motherboard:
      • GigabyteZ87X-UD4H-CF
      • CPU:
      • Intel i7 4770K
      • Memory:
      • 16GB Corsair Vengaence LPX + 8GB Kingston HyperX Beast
      • Storage:
      • 120GB Snadisk + 256GB Crucial SSDs
      • Graphics card(s):
      • 4GB Sapphire R9 380
      • PSU:
      • ENermax Platimax 750W
      • Case:
      • Fractal Design Define S
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10 64bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • ATMT + Dell 1024x1280
      • Internet:
      • Sky Fibre

    Re: Natwest are trying to be seen to be doing the right thing

    Very interesting discussion, my tinfoil hat is definitely smaller than Saracen's, and it is getting smaller as well. I agree with Saracen that it is a judgement call that can't be labeled good or bad, or right/wrong for that matter. I'm not quite as comfortable sharing my data as DanceswithUnix is though.

    I've had a recent change of direction when it comes to how much information I share. I wanted to opt out of the data sharing the NHS offered when it went digital, but I didn't because my thoughts on the matter were conflicting and it was easier not to. Turns out my current thoughts agree with allowing my data being shared because I'm not bothered by Universities and drugs companies having access to aggregated data; I have a basic understanding of the risks and benefits and feel that the benefits far outweigh the risks. Sharing personalised data that included my contact details without me giving expressed permission is unacceptable though; forcing people to be part of something they disagree with is not the way it should be done, no matter how good the outcomes would be if they did that. The road to hell was paved with good intentions for a reason... no-one would allow the road to exist without good intentions, so if you want something done right you should expect your view to win out over the years the same way most, if not all, the prevailing idea's of our time did. History is teaming with good idea's that end up in the bin due to forceful strategy and even better idea's becoming mainstream despite excessive resources being spent on crippling them.

    I've chosen to share more data than I used to, but I'm still not comfortable with the status quo in our monetary system. Like Saracen I am not happy with companies getting too much of my data, but like DanceswithUnix I am not willing to expend the energy and effort required to hide my data from them. I am trying to find a middle ground that is in accord with my main philosophies but doesn't require me to expend too much energy to maintain my position. I am happy to share, but not with any company. I am also unlikely to share everything with one company, despite Google having access to more information on me than I am comfortable with.

    Going forward I intend on getting my second credit card after canceling the first due to the situation that I touched up earlier. I want to use it to work with the system to give it the information it wants to give me the benefit I want. But I'm not going to provide financial details all to one Bank though, I distrust them so much that I won't let myself have more than 2 accounts with a single Bank. Thankfully there are plenty to choose from, and even some building societies that I can use to help compartmentalise the information I share.

    I don't know how well this will turn out. I hope my middle ground is beneficial in the long run; in the short term the system will reward me enough for me to continue to do things this way but the longer term is where things get more difficult to judge. Saracen is probably at a point where the lengths he goes to, despite how stressful they sound to us, are second nature to him. I don't want to get to the point where I cut off my nose to spite my face though, I felt I was in danger of doing that with the way I went about my privacy. Some habits I have made will stick despite my change of mind, and I always have the option to change course later although it might be harder to do by then. My change of view tells me that being a part of the system is more beneficial, I have more influence over it the more I engage in it.

    As for the credit card option being offered by Natwest... I agree with csgohan4 and others when they say that it is not competitive for the bargain end of the market. I don't know what the premium part of the market is like, I'm stuck in the bargain basement for some time yet, but I'm sure there should be better offers out there. They have certainly been making some changes recently, I hear more news about Natwest than other banks, when you discount bad news anyway. This change is nice in principle. Perhaps it is marketing spin hoping to catch some new customers but all good spin requires something that resonates with the masses to work, and simplicity certainly resonates with me. Not enough for me to pick up the credit card, that is for sure. I'll be finding something else that better suits my needs.

  8. #39
    ALT0153™ Rob_B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    6,736
    Thanks
    468
    Thanked
    1,055 times in 687 posts

    Re: Natwest are trying to be seen to be doing the right thing

    FYI - RBS is aiming to simplify things and has/will stop offering 'teaser' rates, this just falls into that aim. It's one of their customer promise thingys to try to rebuild trust.

    The fact that it makes (at first glance) a good impression and in reality probably just saves RBS money by not having to offer low rates is a bonus for them I guess

  9. #40
    Admin (Ret'd)
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    18,481
    Thanks
    1,016
    Thanked
    3,208 times in 2,281 posts

    Re: Natwest are trying to be seen to be doing the right thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    ....

    Saracen is probably at a point where the lengths he goes to, despite how stressful they sound to us, are second nature to him. I don't want to get to the point where I cut off my nose to spite my face though, I felt I was in danger of doing that with the way I went about my privacy. Some habits I have made will stick despite my change of mind, and I always have the option to change course later although it might be harder to do by then. My change of view tells me that being a part of the system is more beneficial, I have more influence over it the more I engage in it.

    ....
    A couple of things about that.

    First, on cutting off noses .... for me, I don't see it as that. I know you weren't saying did, and were talking about you, but to address that issue, for me to be cutting off my nose to spite my face would imply some great sacrifice by losing what I lose. But, what do I lose by paying cash? The "rewards" from reward cards are worth some money, sure, but I'm not that cash-strapped that I even give that a thought. My needs aren't compkex, or expensive, these days. And my outgoings are modest. I do tend to buy quality products at supermarkets, for sure, but not in huge quantities. All told, any cash I'm foregoing by rejecting "reward" cards isn't enough for me to hesitate in rejecting it. I do, however, put considerable value on companies leaving me the hell alone. For me, the effort is minimal and the sacrifice .... irrelevant. If the 'reward' were 10x of what it is, I'd still not hesitate to reject it. At 100x, I might be thinking about it, but the answer would almost certainly be the same.

    If I were 30 years younger, I might see it differently, and my value judgrments woukd certainly be different, because my circumstances would be. For a start, I'm not looking to build, or even particularly to maintain, a good credit rating. Why? I struggle to see the circumstances under which I'll ever want credit again. I don't need or want a mortgage. There's nothing I want badly enough to be prepared to take out a loan that I can't afford without one. I don't even want a mobile phone on monthly contract. In fact, I'm not that sure I want one at all, never mind on contract.

    My situation, my values and judgements, my priorities, my needs from life, are determined by my situation and, Nox, are very likely different to yours. My privacy, and being left in peace and quiet by company marketing departments ARE important to me, but a bit of cashback off my shopping, or discount on what little petrol I buy, let alone vouchers for products I don't want, often at any price, aren't important at all.

    If I sold out being left alone in order to get "rewards", or loans, or more/better/cheaper credit cards, THAT would be cutting off my nose to spite my face.

    You are right about being careful being second nature, though. I'd never thought sbout it that wsy, but I guess it is. I certainly don't fund it stressful, though. on the contrary. I get a certain wry pleasure ftom paying cash knowing that every time I do it, I'm depriving some corporation of that extra little snippet of personal data they seem to so crave, and double the pleasure if, when the cashier asks if I want a reward card and me having said "no thanks, I don't believe in them", they're daft enough to ask "why not".

    As for sharing my medical data with researchers, let alone corporations, hell no. If you think I'm in the tinfoil hat camp over my supermarket shop, I'm about a billion times more adamant over sharing medical data. No way, no way in hell, under any circumstances, if I have anything to say about it. Absolutely, utterly not. I have made it explicitly clear to my doctor that ANY such sharing that can be blocked is to be blocked, and that if identifiable personal data is shared with any organisation other than for necessary NHS purposes in relation to administering my health care, I'll simply stop going to the doctor, regardless of the consequences. I made it clear that such sharing would be a gross and unforgivable violation of medical confidentially sufficient to totally destroy my confidence in NHS doctors. It was gratifying to know he agrees with me about such sharing without explicit and entirely willing consent being medically unethical and is not, personally, at all happy about the latest government attempt to violate that.

    I'm sure someone will say, or at least wonder, would I still refuse to share personal medical data if it meant not being eligible for any treatment developed as a result of such sharing. If such an option was available, yes, I'd still refuse, in a .... erm .... heartbeat. Show me where to sign that, and I'll sign it.

  10. Received thanks from:

    Noxvayl (01-08-2014)

  11. #41
    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    In the middle of a core dump
    Posts
    12,978
    Thanks
    778
    Thanked
    1,586 times in 1,341 posts
    • DanceswithUnix's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus X470-PRO
      • CPU:
      • 5900X
      • Memory:
      • 32GB 3200MHz ECC
      • Storage:
      • 2TB Linux, 2TB Games (Win 10)
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Asus Strix RX Vega 56
      • PSU:
      • 650W Corsair TX
      • Case:
      • Antec 300
      • Operating System:
      • Fedora 39 + Win 10 Pro 64 (yuk)
      • Monitor(s):
      • Benq XL2730Z 1440p + Iiyama 27" 1440p
      • Internet:
      • Zen 900Mb/900Mb (CityFibre FttP)

    Re: Natwest are trying to be seen to be doing the right thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Maybe what gets stored is an MP5 hash. That way, no credit card data is stored, or reverse engineerable, but yet, transactions can still be key linked.
    That is how you have to try and do it. MD5 probably wouldn't be enough, but here is the fun part. You are not allowed to store a credit card number such that the number can be recovered. The forward encryption method would have to be on the POS machine the cashier uses, and they can be easily stolen/compromised and as they are basically a PC the code to do that encryption easily recovered. A credit card PAN is 16 digits (can be 20 but usually not). The first few digits say who the card company is, so you can guess those and generally get it right. The last digit is a check digit for manual number entry that avoids accepting a number where one of the digits is wrong or two digits are transposed (common typos on card numbers). So lets day you dictionary attack the first 4 digits and compute the last digit, you have an 11 digit number to brute force, forward encrypt and compare the result. Congratulations, too easy, this system just failed security audit and doesn't get implemented.

    So to actually get this to stick, it needs pinpad encryption sent straight to a back end server in secure location at headquarters. If that slows down the checkout process by 1 second (which for a database wih 15000 checkouts hitting it I think is optimistic) then that would be considered a loss of millions because checkout throughput is that important to them, and it wouldn't fly on commercial grounds.

    There must be a way of them doing this, but I know how slow supermarket IT systems are to change so I wouldn't be surprised if none have managed it yet. But you are right, some finessed version of what you suggested will end up deployed.

  12. #42
    Ninja Noxvayl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    In the shadows
    Posts
    2,451
    Thanks
    748
    Thanked
    215 times in 173 posts
    • Noxvayl's system
      • Motherboard:
      • GigabyteZ87X-UD4H-CF
      • CPU:
      • Intel i7 4770K
      • Memory:
      • 16GB Corsair Vengaence LPX + 8GB Kingston HyperX Beast
      • Storage:
      • 120GB Snadisk + 256GB Crucial SSDs
      • Graphics card(s):
      • 4GB Sapphire R9 380
      • PSU:
      • ENermax Platimax 750W
      • Case:
      • Fractal Design Define S
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10 64bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • ATMT + Dell 1024x1280
      • Internet:
      • Sky Fibre

    Re: Natwest are trying to be seen to be doing the right thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    A couple of things about that.

    First, on cutting off noses .... for me, I don't see it as that. I know you weren't saying did, and were talking about you, but to address that issue, for me to be cutting off my nose to spite my face would imply some great sacrifice by losing what I lose. But, what do I lose by paying cash? The "rewards" from reward cards are worth some money, sure, but I'm not that cash-strapped that I even give that a thought. My needs aren't compkex, or expensive, these days. And my outgoings are modest. I do tend to buy quality products at supermarkets, for sure, but not in huge quantities. All told, any cash I'm foregoing by rejecting "reward" cards isn't enough for me to hesitate in rejecting it. I do, however, put considerable value on companies leaving me the hell alone. For me, the effort is minimal and the sacrifice .... irrelevant. If the 'reward' were 10x of what it is, I'd still not hesitate to reject it. At 100x, I might be thinking about it, but the answer would almost certainly be the same.

    If I were 30 years younger, I might see it differently, and my value judgrments woukd certainly be different, because my circumstances would be. For a start, I'm not looking to build, or even particularly to maintain, a good credit rating. Why? I struggle to see the circumstances under which I'll ever want credit again. I don't need or want a mortgage. There's nothing I want badly enough to be prepared to take out a loan that I can't afford without one. I don't even want a mobile phone on monthly contract. In fact, I'm not that sure I want one at all, never mind on contract.

    My situation, my values and judgements, my priorities, my needs from life, are determined by my situation and, Nox, are very likely different to yours. My privacy, and being left in peace and quiet by company marketing departments ARE important to me, but a bit of cashback off my shopping, or discount on what little petrol I buy, let alone vouchers for products I don't want, often at any price, aren't important at all.

    If I sold out being left alone in order to get "rewards", or loans, or more/better/cheaper credit cards, THAT would be cutting off my nose to spite my face.
    I agree with your assessment from a narrow and personal point of view. I have started to think in broader terms, perhaps to my detriment but I'll find out later. To me acting for my personal best interests doesn't help improve the environment that I am in, and being an Engineering student I want to sculpt the environment to encourage better outcomes. I feel the best way to do that is to behave in a manner that positively influences my environment and I think sharing is the best way to do that.

    Like yourself I too hate being pestered and go to lengths to prevent it. I tend to get it right but every now and then something slips through. When that happens I effectively put those companies on a blacklist and if I can help it I take my business elsewhere. It is about respect in the end, if they can't respect my desires why am I going to help them achieve theirs. I feel the best way we can participate in society is to carefully choose who we do business with so that we reward businesses that provide for our needs without encroaching on our autonomy and without trying to invade our lives to influence us. You might not have thought of it this way but I feel the spam messages companies produce are like an invasion into my life. You can't undo what has happened and they rely on that to get their marketing across, but I can control what the result of that invasion is and generally it results in those companies getting a very wide berth from me. That is the part of me that strongly agrees with you but I diverge from you when it comes to the sharing of my information. I don't just put it out there, but I don't actively guard against it getting out either. I carefully select who gets what and try to make sure the complete picture is kept safe behind multiple independent corporations and shielded privacy law we have in this country which I quite like.

    I feel that it is easy to make a decision for myself that would benefit me directly but doing so can act against what is beneficial for the community I live in or the country I am a part of. In that sense I feel that preventing my information being shared is working against the culture I am a part of and I have no idea how negative or positive my actions could be on a wider societal scale. But I am not willing to let my own considerations potentially hinder objectives I'd like my community and country to achieve. My change of mind is directly related to my belief that sharing is a positive force generally. It can be used against me but if I spread my information out enough I can get the benefit of sharing the information without allowing one company to get too much control over the information I have shared. I feel better about doing things this way.

    I agree that our preferences and needs are most likely different. That doesn't mean there isn't some commonality with them and how our decisions affect those things that are common to us. You've clearly outlined how you address your needs and balance your personal preference against the desires of corporations. My choice of dealing with that is very different, and most likely comes down to my different experience to yours. I am from a different part of the world, literally. The culture I grew up in over in Africa was directly influenced by the UK but it didn't go through the same changes that the UK did and as such a lot of what was abandoned here was kept very much alive back in Africa. These differences build up over time, and I only have 26 years behind me, you probably twice as much. I like conversing with you for that reason, we are the results of very different cultures but we both spend a large amount of effort thinking about how and why we do things. It fascinates me that I come to such different conclusions than yourself and I am certain it stems from experiences rather than information because we tend to consume similar media, we are on the same forum after all. In this case we disagree in how we address the situation we have identified, but our idea of the situation we are in I feel is probably very similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    You are right about being careful being second nature, though. I'd never thought sbout it that wsy, but I guess it is. I certainly don't fund it stressful, though. on the contrary. I get a certain wry pleasure ftom paying cash knowing that every time I do it, I'm depriving some corporation of that extra little snippet of personal data they seem to so crave, and double the pleasure if, when the cashier asks if I want a reward card and me having said "no thanks, I don't believe in them", they're daft enough to ask "why not".

    As for sharing my medical data with researchers, let alone corporations, hell no. If you think I'm in the tinfoil hat camp over my supermarket shop, I'm about a billion times more adamant over sharing medical data. No way, no way in hell, under any circumstances, if I have anything to say about it. Absolutely, utterly not. I have made it explicitly clear to my doctor that ANY such sharing that can be blocked is to be blocked, and that if identifiable personal data is shared with any organisation other than for necessary NHS purposes in relation to administering my health care, I'll simply stop going to the doctor, regardless of the consequences. I made it clear that such sharing would be a gross and unforgivable violation of medical confidentially sufficient to totally destroy my confidence in NHS doctors. It was gratifying to know he agrees with me about such sharing without explicit and entirely willing consent being medically unethical and is not, personally, at all happy about the latest government attempt to violate that.

    I'm sure someone will say, or at least wonder, would I still refuse to share personal medical data if it meant not being eligible for any treatment developed as a result of such sharing. If such an option was available, yes, I'd still refuse, in a .... erm .... heartbeat. Show me where to sign that, and I'll sign it.
    I only noticed it because most of your arguments on Hexus stem from others not agreeing with the actions you take after seeing the information presented. The recent one which made me laugh was your argument with Top_gun in the SSD thread about productivity. To me it looks like it is the most natural thing in the world to you, your arguments flow out like a river: naturally, quickly and with force. I sometimes agree with them, like I did in the SSD thread, but when I don't I find myself spending ridiculous amounts of time trying to justify why. Perhaps the time is my own fault for not having a good enough argument ready to produce at will because this post took me over an hour to construct but could easily have been much quicker if my thoughts on the matter didn't require editing and little bit of research to create in this form.

    I know I have a tin foil hat, and I like it. It is a useful thing to have, something I think everyone should be able to access when thinking about important decisions. This conversation puts the sizes of our tin foil hats into perspective for me, and probably for you. I feel mine needs to reduce in size and I think yours is much too big for my liking. This goes back to personal preference though, I suspect your assessment, in the same terms, would probably be that I should be careful with how much smaller I make my tin foil hat because it is dangerous to make it too small. I respect and enjoy reading about just how cautious you are with information, especially when it comes to banking. In this case I disagree with your choice of actions, and am alarmed by your decisions with regards to medical data. It works for you though and I find it useful to have access to views as cautious as yours that are so well thought out. I won't be taking them on myself but I do bare them in mind.

    I'm happy you noticed my comment wasn't targeted at you; I edited that paragraph numerous times so it is nice to see that the construction of it didn't have a negative impact. I know I can be blunt and I am proud of that, but I do try not to aggravate others when I recognise what I am saying could do so. It is time consuming not to just say what first comes in my mind though, my filter isn't well calibrated.

  13. #43
    Admin (Ret'd)
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    18,481
    Thanks
    1,016
    Thanked
    3,208 times in 2,281 posts

    Re: Natwest are trying to be seen to be doing the right thing

    Interesting, Dances. I hadn't taken the methodology quite that far, but you make a good argument. I guess my main point was that if the data is stored, it could be years later before it's used. All it requires is some way, any way, of linking relevant records together. It doesn't needed to be linked to an identifiable individual now, but if at any point in the future that link can be made, then all that data becomes available.

    ... but I know how slow supermarket IT systems are to change so I wouldn't be surprised if none have managed it yet ....
    At least as far as hardware is concerned, tell me about it. I've come across some systems, in major supermarkets, that's 20 years old. In the end, it was changed primarily because it was getting expensive to maintain, and because failure rates were too high.

    Software changes, however, can go far faster than that. There are some issues, one of them being Metrology certification of devices like scales linked to EPOS systems, so changes certainly aren't made on a whim, at least as far as software in checkouts is concerned. But whether that would even need to be changed would depend on what's being sent to back office systems, now. For sure, full data on items bought is being stored, for stock control and sales analysis purposes, if nothing else.

    The only way I can think of to be sure it is not possible for stores to identify me with transaction data is to not give them a way to identify me .... short of them installing facial recognition systems. If they ever go that far (and I doubt they will, at least in the forseeable future, for human rights reasons if nothing else) then we'll know they REALLY are determined to store our personal data.

    Put it this way. They can't use what they don't have. But if they do have it, sooner or later, they're likely to use it. And I object to them being able to do that, now or un the future. As it is, all they can store with me is item data for stock control purposes, and "cash" for individual identifying data.

  14. #44
    Admin (Ret'd)
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    18,481
    Thanks
    1,016
    Thanked
    3,208 times in 2,281 posts

    Re: Natwest are trying to be seen to be doing the right thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    ....

    I agree that our preferences and needs are most likely different. That doesn't mean there isn't some commonality with them and how our decisions affect those things that are common to us. You've clearly outlined how you address your needs and balance your personal preference against the desires of corporations. My choice of dealing with that is very different, and most likely comes down to my different experience to yours. I am from a different part of the world, literally. The culture I grew up in over in Africa was directly influenced by the UK but it didn't go through the same changes that the UK did and as such a lot of what was abandoned here was kept very much alive back in Africa. These differences build up over time, and I only have 26 years behind me, you probably twice as much. I like conversing with you for that reason, we are the results of very different cultures but we both spend a large amount of effort thinking about how and why we do things. It fascinates me that I come to such different conclusions than yourself and I am certain it stems from experiences rather than information because we tend to consume similar media, we are on the same forum after all. In this case we disagree in how we address the situation we have identified, but our idea of the situation we are in I feel is probably very similar.



    I only noticed it because most of your arguments on Hexus stem from others not agreeing with the actions you take after seeing the information presented. The recent one which made me laugh was your argument with Top_gun in the SSD thread about productivity. To me it looks like it is the most natural thing in the world to you, your arguments flow out like a river: naturally, quickly and with force. I sometimes agree with them, like I did in the SSD thread, but when I don't I find myself spending ridiculous amounts of time trying to justify why. Perhaps the time is my own fault for not having a good enough argument ready to produce at will because this post took me over an hour to construct but could easily have been much quicker if my thoughts on the matter didn't require editing and little bit of research to create in this form.

    I know I have a tin foil hat, and I like it. It is a useful thing to have, something I think everyone should be able to access when thinking about important decisions. This conversation puts the sizes of our tin foil hats into perspective for me, and probably for you. I feel mine needs to reduce in size and I think yours is much too big for my liking. This goes back to personal preference though, I suspect your assessment, in the same terms, would probably be that I should be careful with how much smaller I make my tin foil hat because it is dangerous to make it too small. I respect and enjoy reading about just how cautious you are with information, especially when it comes to banking. In this case I disagree with your choice of actions, and am alarmed by your decisions with regards to medical data. It works for you though and I find it useful to have access to views as cautious as yours that are so well thought out. I won't be taking them on myself but I do bare them in mind. ....
    There's a couple of things in there.

    Firstly, bear in mind, GD is a discussion forum, so discussion is central. When you get two or more people, or groups, with differing viewpoints, you're going to get discussion. And, in my experience, rarely do the arguments made actually change anyone's opinion. So, discussion on here is about exactly that .... discussion.

    I don't expect anyone else to change their mind, especially if they've already got a settled view. If it's an issue someone, usually younger people, haven't thought about a given subject, then just maybe a discussion here helps them reach a view, or amend a 'settled' view. And if so, whether they end up agreeing with me or not, that's great. But mainly, it's just about having a discussion.

    I've been accused before of being, erm, tenacious. Of not letting go of an issue. But here's the thing, every single time someone's said that, they've expected to get the last word, and this is not a discussion or debate forum that works like that. It's not formalised, like an Oxford Union debate, each side doesn't get a limited number of posts, or words. It just goes on until it doesn't .... usually morphing into something else along the way. Like now.

    But if you read my arguments carefully, you'll notice that the vast bulk of the time, I'm not trying to convince anyone else yo change their mind. Since you raised the SSD thread, take a look at it. The original question was asking for opinions. Lots of them were along the lines of "they're great, fantastic, perfect for everyone, get one" type of view. But what did I say? Merely, they're not great for everyone, and have limited benefit, in some circumstances. When people make sweeping generalisations, and I know that to be untrue, I put the exceptions. That is, in that thread, what was asked for. Views.

    So, on SSDs, I don't have anything against them. I certainly wouldn't try to convince anyone not go get one. I will, however, put the counter view to sweeping generalisations. For me, for my use, an SSD is, I guess, nice. It's quiet, small, and a very small part of my PC use is "snappier". BUT .... for the vast bulk of what I do, they make no real difference.

    So when someone says "are they worth it" my view, and that's all it is, MY view, is that whether they're worth it or not depends on, first, how much the money they cost means to someone, and second, what they do with their PC. It may well be that for many, even most, users of a forum like this they're the best value upgrade available. But I put the counter view because I can say for absolute certainty that they're not "essential" for everyone, because they're not essential for me.

    I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone not to buy them. I'm trying to point out that the "just get one" viewpoint is not universal.

    And, in regards to the thread you mentioned, I'm aware I'm not just talking directly to the the pdrson that started the thread, or just to the person (like you, in this thread) that I responded go, or even to any forum members that happen to read it, but also to anyone that comes across Hexus in months or years to come, perhaps as a result of a search on SSDs and value for money.

    I enjoy discussions, for discussions sake, mainly because I like to see if anyone comes up with an argument on a subject I haven't seen before, or better yet, manages to get me to change my mind. It also often really challenges me, and long held views. A number of members here are really good at that, including, off the top of my head and in differing ways, Santa, TheAnimus, shaithis and a number of others.

    But Nox, it's not about changing anyone's mind. I don't expect to change anyone's, and rarely does mine get changed. It has happened, both ways, but it's rare. But it's often merely about the challenge, because it makes me think. If someone, say Santa, managrs to come up with an argument on, say, the death penalty, that makes me sweat to counter, then it makes me consider whether I ought to be reassessing my 'settled' view.

    So, Nox, if a subject comes up that interests me, I'll "discuss" it. At length, if need be. I'll put the case as I see it, and respond either to counters to it, or to "sweeping generalisations". But I'm not trying to change your mind, on anything. I might put a case for an opposing view out there, but what you do with it is up to you. Agree or not, it's fine with me. Disagree with me publicly, and that's fine too. What I do expect, though, as an admin not a member, is for it to do done reasonably courteously, not laden with either outright insults or snide digs. THAT will get a robust response. One of the reasons HEXUS is generally well mannered is precisely because, from me or any other mod, we do insist things stay reasonably courteous. Or at least, we do if we see it.

    So, be it SSDs, or personal privacy, or whatever, I'm quite happy to have an extended discussion, and I'm happy to put my viewpoint as I see it. You're welcome to agree or disagree, to keep going as long as you wish, or to stop as soon as you want to. If anything I say makes you think, great. If you end up agreeing with me, or not, either way is fine. If what I say challenges you, makes you think, just as it does me when someone like Santa, etc, challenges me, then whichever viewpoint you settle on doesn't matter, if it made you think your view through.

    As for age, yeah, I'm over twice your age. That has some, but very limited relevance. It does mean my views are probably more settled than yours, mainly because I've had some of the same arguments over many years. The death penalty, for instance, is a debate I first had in, I guess, the early 1970s. So I've had more practice. And, by and large, heard all the arguments before.

    On personal info, the age difference is different perspectives. My agenda is different to yours, for instance. I'm not worried about credit rating, snd certainly not about mortgage eligibility. If you're happy to share some, or all, info, either for altruistic purposes or vested self-interest, that's fine with me, and also, outside of tne "discussion" context, none of my business.

    I'm not, for instance, trying to convince you to change your mind. Primarily, I'm just enjoying a forum debate. If, and I stress "if" anything I come up with either changes your mind, or makes you think and you end up reinforcing your existing view, either way is fine.

    For instance, and you've no doubt already considered it, bear in mind that personal info is like a genie .... except that it doesn't grant many wishes. But, once out of it's bottle, it's extremely unlikely to ever be put back in it. Like virginity, when it's gone, it's gone, whether you regret losing it in years to come or not. Just bear in mind, when giving up personal info to corporates, you can't ungive it if, in years to come, your priorities change. The same, with bells on, for medical info. Once you lose control, you've lost control permanently. You can, currently at least, restrict the future loss of more info, but what's gone is gone, period.

    For me, if, at some point, my doctor asked me to surrender limited personal info, for a specific project or study, to specific individuals or groups, I'd condider that, on it's merits, on a case by case basis. But simply conceeding control over my medical records to some faceless NHS bureaucracy to give or effectively sell to whomever they see fit, no way in hell. I will never, EVER agree to that, and I regard it as a fundamental breach of medical confidentiality. That doesn't, by the way, mean I expect you or anyone else to necessarily agree.

  15. Received thanks from:

    Noxvayl (01-08-2014)

  16. #45
    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    In the middle of a core dump
    Posts
    12,978
    Thanks
    778
    Thanked
    1,586 times in 1,341 posts
    • DanceswithUnix's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus X470-PRO
      • CPU:
      • 5900X
      • Memory:
      • 32GB 3200MHz ECC
      • Storage:
      • 2TB Linux, 2TB Games (Win 10)
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Asus Strix RX Vega 56
      • PSU:
      • 650W Corsair TX
      • Case:
      • Antec 300
      • Operating System:
      • Fedora 39 + Win 10 Pro 64 (yuk)
      • Monitor(s):
      • Benq XL2730Z 1440p + Iiyama 27" 1440p
      • Internet:
      • Zen 900Mb/900Mb (CityFibre FttP)

    Re: Natwest are trying to be seen to be doing the right thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Put it this way. They can't use what they don't have. But if they do have it, sooner or later, they're likely to use it. And I object to them being able to do that, now or un the future. As it is, all they can store with me is item data for stock control purposes, and "cash" for individual identifying data.
    I hope you turn off WiFi and Bluetooth on your phone when you approach the store

    There was some suggestion a while back that stock control use of rfid tags was so cheap that they could be permanently sewn into clothing. Once sold and no longer required for stock control, your shirt could be used to identify you entering and exiting the store. In reality the closest we have to this happening is the biometric enabled passports.

  17. #46
    Admin (Ret'd)
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    18,481
    Thanks
    1,016
    Thanked
    3,208 times in 2,281 posts

    Re: Natwest are trying to be seen to be doing the right thing

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    I hope you turn off WiFi and Bluetooth on your phone when you approach the store

    There was some suggestion a while back that stock control use of rfid tags was so cheap that they could be permanently sewn into clothing. Once sold and no longer required for stock control, your shirt could be used to identify you entering and exiting the store. In reality the closest we have to this happening is the biometric enabled passports.
    I don't turn bluetooth or wifi off, no. Mainly, that's because most of the time, I don't have my phone with me, but even if I do, it has neither bluetooth nor wifi. Honest, it doesn't. And personal privacy is probably the single biggest reason I don't have such a phone, though privacy in store isn't the biggest part of that.

    I do take your point, though.

    If clothes ever were to carry such ID capabilities, I would certainly do everything I could to either fry or remove such a capability, or to simply buy clothes eithout it. I'd also expect any such move to immediately provoke a rigorous and robust privacy claim under the HRA and/or ECHR. If it didn't (which I can't believe) I'd be extremely tempted to take out such a case myself.

    I wonder how such chips react to being microwaved, or subjected to intense electro-magnetic fields? I could arrange either.

  18. #47
    Ninja Noxvayl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    In the shadows
    Posts
    2,451
    Thanks
    748
    Thanked
    215 times in 173 posts
    • Noxvayl's system
      • Motherboard:
      • GigabyteZ87X-UD4H-CF
      • CPU:
      • Intel i7 4770K
      • Memory:
      • 16GB Corsair Vengaence LPX + 8GB Kingston HyperX Beast
      • Storage:
      • 120GB Snadisk + 256GB Crucial SSDs
      • Graphics card(s):
      • 4GB Sapphire R9 380
      • PSU:
      • ENermax Platimax 750W
      • Case:
      • Fractal Design Define S
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10 64bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • ATMT + Dell 1024x1280
      • Internet:
      • Sky Fibre

    Re: Natwest are trying to be seen to be doing the right thing

    Well said Saracen, I won't quote any of it because it will take up too much space, and time.

    I seem to have come across as either wanting to and expecting that views change during this discussion, at least that is what it seems from your response. It wasn't the best ending to my post, but it is something I tend to do when I feel I have put forward all I can in the discussion. I like to summarise and the last quote I took of yours was perfect fuel for me to make a summary of what I took from the discussion. I had not intended to portray my involvement in discussions as wanting to change other peoples views, it certainly is an intention to challenge and flex my mental muscle but, like you, I don't expect views to change. I like the diversity and quality of views at Hexus, which is why it is the forum I have remained on for the longest period of time.

    I agree with what you said, broadly and specifically, with regards to discussions and I make an effort to respect that idea of discussions.

    With regards to the genie being released from the bottle. I agree, very difficult to get it back. But I don't feel that you are powerless once you have let it out. If everyone adds their genie to the mix they can help influence how they interact, it is much harder to influence how our collective genies interact if yours is still locked up. Perhaps I'll find out later how bad a decision it was, and your cautions will be the first things to pop up should that happen. To me we are part of the system we are currently in, in the past we have shaped it to be what it currently is and we will continue to alter it to suit us going forward. I feel happier to be sharing within the system rather than withdrawing from it.

  19. #48
    HEXUS.social member Agent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Internet
    Posts
    19,185
    Thanks
    739
    Thanked
    1,614 times in 1,050 posts

    Re: Natwest are trying to be seen to be doing the right thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    I wonder how such chips react to being microwaved, or subjected to intense electro-magnetic fields? I could arrange either.
    It kills them, but you get one hell of a display if you do it for too long!
    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And by trying to force me to like small pants, they've alienated me.

Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •