The Iraqi Nightmare

[kalniel]

So perhaps wider distribution and education about the original Quran would be beneficial, and perhaps greater religious education world wide would help. Though that obviously wouldn't address bad people trying to hijack religion for there own aims, but it might help unknowing people being drawn into things so readily, and would certainly help other parts of the world understand that IS are not representing the Islam practised by most people (thus reducing phobias, abuse and ultimately perhaps reducing some conflict born out of misunderstanding).

[TooNice]

Probably.[...]

The other thing is, Islamic scholars were at the forefront of scientific and mathematical discovery, but now groups like ISIS and the Taliban eschew technology (other than the weapons they use) and progressive thought (banning women from education, teaching only what agrees with the Quran, etc).

I'd guess that it's mostly people using Islam as a tool for their own ends, just as other people have done with other religions in the past. How to counter it is tricky, but reducing poverty, increasing education and providing a grounds for all groups to be included and at least able to have communication with each other for better understanding would be a start.

The thing is that they are a relatively small group as far as I understand, yet despite their ways, they come across as a social network / technology savvy group. More so than we have seen in the past. They use Twitter, seem to understand "Internet humour", make rather high production videos in multiple languages and managed to attract citizens from Western countries. I do not have the impression that they are the least educated group in the world and yet have a shocking disdain for human life. There is something about this that simply does not compute.

Are you for real?

Personally, I think that he simply didn't care much at the beginning then decided to post outrageous comments to stir the pot given the reactions he is getting from j1979. Best to ignore and move on IMO.

[kalniel]

The thing is that they are a relatively small group as far as I understand, yet despite their ways, they come across as a social network / technology savvy group. More so than we have seen in the past. They use Twitter, seem to understand "Internet humour", make rather high production videos in multiple languages and managed to attract citizens from Western countries. I do not have the impression that they are the least educated group in the world and yet have a shocking disdain for human life. There is something about this that simply does not compute.

In the same way that toddlers often have a better grasp on technology than their parents?

[j1979]

The thing is that they are a relatively small group as far as I understand, yet despite their ways, they come across as a social network / technology savvy group. More so than we have seen in the past. They use Twitter, seem to understand "Internet humour", make rather high production videos in multiple languages and managed to attract citizens from Western countries. I do not have the impression that they are the least educated group in the world and yet have a shocking disdain for human life. There is something about this that simply does not compute.


Personally, I think that he simply didn't care much at the beginning then decided to post outrageous comments to stir the pot given the reactions he is getting from j1979. Best to ignore and move on IMO.

He will continue to get those reactions seen as the mods ignore him.

His opinion is could be wide spread. There is a chance this point of view is not a small section of the Muslim community.
Support for ISIS from within the UK seems to be, most support their aims and some support their tactics. Very worrying imho.

[peterb]

Thread closed - again - for review

[peterb]

Right, I have cleaned up some posts that, with the benefit of hindsight, added little to the topic. There are others, which although borderline trolling, can be left, for the moment to be discussed - but such discussions should not include personal attacks on a person - challenge the opinions, not the person. If a poster doesn't feel that is possible, then don't post.

IIRC, the original post referred as much to the short term requirement for humanitarian aid as much as the need to solve 'a problem'.

I hope I won't ned to close the thread again....

[TheAnimus]

I'm reminded of a joke, the setting takes place in a software development team.

A dev is chatting to a tester, and comments that just because the bible claims to be the words of an infallible god doesn't begin to establish it's credibility, after all the BAs make the same assertions about their work.

[j1979]

The Islamic States's plan for the future (past)



Interestingly it includes Crimea and Odessa

[kalniel]

A dev is chatting to a tester, and comments that just because the bible claims to be the words of an infallible god doesn't begin to establish it's credibility, after all the BAs make the same assertions about their work.

Very funny. A shame that the bible doesn't make such a claim, nor does it seem to be anything to do with the situation in Iraq because I don't think IS are using the bible to justify their actions :/

[drone567]

I think as people know, the US and UK didn't understand the subtle power balance in those areas, didn't have an end strategy(training Iraqui troops and arming them, against religious fanatics, was never going to end well. The army knew that! I also see a large radical islamic state being formed across large parts of Afganistan and Pakistan, after troops return. I think the way our troops were sent with little justification, should never happen again. I think they should be allowed to set up Islamic States if they want. But if they threaten us, we use modern drone, and cyber tech to contain them.

[TooNice]

In the same way that toddlers often have a better grasp on technology than their parents?

Most toddlers do not cut people's head off (or wish to if they could). On the other hand, educated/intelligent people with similar disregard for human life do exist (frighteningly). We tend to associate it with antisocial personality disorders. I am not in a position to know what goes inside the head of ISIS members (presumably there would be differences), but if we are dealing to something akin to thisat some level, then education may not necessarily fix it. And there is also the issue that the same experience can still affect two individuals with similar background differently. I strongly believe that violent video games won't turn most people (namely educated college students) into a murderers, yet I can't rule out the possibility that this is the catalyst needed for a very tiny fraction of the population to flip. In the same way, regardless of what is written in the Bible, Q'ran etc, I do not think that most people will turn into killers. But a tiny fraction out of around 2 billion can still add up to a small army.

[drone567]

Interesting related article http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/1...-violence.html

[kalniel]

Most toddlers do not cut people's head off (or wish to if they could).

I'm not for one moment suggesting they do - the comment was about use of technology/media. It's really not hard to pick up.

[OilSheikh]

I think as people know, the US and UK didn't understand the subtle power balance in those areas, didn't have an end strategy(training Iraqui troops and arming them, against religious fanatics, was never going to end well. The army knew that! I also see a large radical islamic state being formed across large parts of Afganistan and Pakistan, after troops return. I think the way our troops were sent with little justification, should never happen again. I think they should be allowed to set up Islamic States if they want. But if they threaten us, we use modern drone, and cyber tech to contain them.

Agreed. US isn't world police and we should stop being their pet Alsatian

[TheAnimus]

Very funny. A shame that the bible doesn't make such a claim, nor does it seem to be anything to do with the situation in Iraq because I don't think IS are using the bible to justify their actions :/

A religious purging has many drivers, often simply economic. But I'm amazed that people consider it to somehow be OK to allow these views to continue, the fact is that it provides a mechanism for people to refute reason, you need only look at the schools that teach evolution is not real. In this case we've got a purge, which is being justified entirely by religious beliefs, it's ok to kill someone for not converting, because they are an affront to god.

The reason I mentioned the joke, is so many take the bible to be immutable, hell the king james I was given by my god father had what amounts to a curse on the front page.

It reminds me of a gun debate, "oh well you would use that example where a kid shot up a school", "oh well you would point out the issues with HIV, ethnic cleansing, morals lagging behind society"

[TooNice]

I'm not for one moment suggesting they do - the comment was about use of technology/media. It's really not hard to pick up.

Perhaps the use of social network can be picked up without much difficulty, but making propaganda videos at that level is not exactly child's play. I don't think the analogy works here and I still find their behaviour puzzling. It is not a case of an immature person who hasn't been educated or taught morality. For recruits based in Western countries (and likely those based in that region as well), I would say that it is not a case of fearing some terrible disease either. And though we aren't exactly free from poverty, it is not quite as bad as many parts of the world, and those who answers the call of arms at the very least has accessed to the internet, enough money for a plane ticket and likely more. So as far as I am concerned, we have a group of educated adults with the means to lead the "normal life", who believe that a certain ethnic minority are devil worshippers AND need to be "cleansed" in brutal fashion. Aside from finding it puzzling (and terrifying), I wonder if there is really a fix.. or even a real mean to prevent the problem.