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Thread: (M)eat to live... until the animals take over :-p

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    Senior Member SeriousSam's Avatar
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    (M)eat to live... until the animals take over :-p

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29007758

    On the back of Dr. Michael Mosley's two Horizon programmes about meat, covering health and environmental impact, we have an article discussing the latest report on the latter subject. As always the comments are rather comedic in the usual unfortunate way. Which highlights the initial assumption I shall make to initiate this discussion; people will by and large do what they want unless constrained by external forces.

    Setting aside the furore about man made climate change, the evidence is clear about being sensible in regards to the environmental impact of our behaviour. Even if limited to just its effect on us, e.g. air pollution in cities. So you would think that making a minimal adjustment to the amount and types of animal protein we consume would be a no brainer. We don't need to stop completely as it's healthier to eat a moderate amount when all health factors are considered. However in all likelihood we will carry on as we are, if not consuming more*.

    *Total consumption will go up irrespective due to the increase being primarily in China

    With this in mind what "external force" could be use to create the required change, at least in the UK?

    Personally I think that nothing short of completely restructuring the entire food network will have any significant impact. Which considering the economic trauma we'd have to go through during any transition period, isn't going to happen anytime soon.
    If Wisdom is the coordination of "knowledge and experience" and its deliberate use to improve well being then how come "Ignorance is bliss"

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    Moosing about! CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
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    Re: (M)eat to live... until the animals take over :-p

    Yet all the rich people and those with all the real power and wealth will still eat what they want and do what they want still,and all the plebs can eat Soylent Green instead living in tiny hovels indebted to the max!

    I think we should also stop this notion of different types of clothes or fashion. I vote for undyed clothes since dyes cause a lot of water pollution,and we can reduce the number of styles too since making 1000s of different types of clothes wastes energy and resources. We should standardise on only a few types based on practicality only.

    Soon all the plebs will be only allowed to have the following:



    Hopefully it comes in chocolate flavour!
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 01-09-2014 at 04:54 PM.

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    Senior Member SeriousSam's Avatar
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    Re: (M)eat to live... until the animals take over :-p

    Half & Half Vanilla plus Banana is the way forward in Protein shakes
    If Wisdom is the coordination of "knowledge and experience" and its deliberate use to improve well being then how come "Ignorance is bliss"

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    Re: (M)eat to live... until the animals take over :-p

    As Bagnaj97 was telling me earlier,its Cows which are the major issue as they fart too much,so ultimately maybe the debate needs to be first on what kind of meat we should be eating.

    Ultimately,I don't want it just to be another case of the government using it as a excuse to further impose stealth taxes TBH since none of the lot are poor themselves it makes no difference to them. A nutritional drink like Soylent with fibre supplements probably would be enough for most people to survive on and would be environmentally more friendly too.

    Edit!!

    Having said that things like Quorn and Soya Meat can work quite well if you know how to use them properly,so its not like you need to eat meat all the time TBH,but I am still wary of stealth taxes which is usually the way any government attempts to solve 90% of the problems here.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 01-09-2014 at 05:17 PM.

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    The late but legendary peterb - Onward and Upward peterb's Avatar
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    Re: (M)eat to live... until the animals take over :-p

    But the really problem (IMHO) and the real elephant in the room, is that the cause of the problem of increased energy consumption, whether it be food production or fossil fuel consumption is that their are too many human beings. At the moment the planet can sustain the current numbers, albeit with the very clever use of technology, but at some point the exponential growrth in the planet population will become unsustainable and there will (unless the problem is acknowledged and action taken) be some cataclysmic event to cull our numbers.

    It may be disease, or some natural phenomenon, maybe the Caldera under Yellowstone Park erupting, or an asteroid hitting the earth, or a large earthquake (San Andreas?) causing widespread devastation.

    The eruption of Krakatoa had a global impact, but the effect on the human population was minimized because there were fewer of us.

    Whatever or whenever the correction comes, it will reduce human numbers. We as a species could become extinct. Extinction is part of the evolutionary process. I think humans with their great adaptability probably would survive in small numbers, but civilisation may well be destroyed.

    You only have to consider the impact of total loss or severe restriction of electricity generation capacity for (say) a month to see what effect that would have.

    The survivors are likely to be tribes that have not embraced technology or abandoned an agronomic subsistence or hand to mouth survival model.
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    Re: (M)eat to live... until the animals take over :-p

    Well if humanity had stopped fighting among itself we probably would have had progressed further in things like fusion energy production or even trying to colonise space. Instead we just use it to find more ways to beat ourselves with a bigger stick.

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    Re: (M)eat to live... until the animals take over :-p

    7 billion people are the problem. Fewer people eating well in a planet with living space and nature is surely the objective to aim for. Rather than 20 billion eating biogloop is an overcrowded wasteland.

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    Re: (M)eat to live... until the animals take over :-p

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    As Bagnaj97 was telling me earlier,its Cows which are the major issue as they fart too much,so ultimately maybe the debate needs to be first on what kind of meat we should be eating.
    But they eat the grass which is where the carbon is stored, Methane is a much more powerful greenhouse gas but it also has a much shorter half-life. There is no conclusive proof that the long term negative effect of cow methane is greater than opposing benefit of the carbon they consume in the form of replenishable grassland.

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    Re: (M)eat to live... until the animals take over :-p

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    But they eat the grass which is where the carbon is stored, Methane is a much more powerful greenhouse gas but it also has a much shorter half-life. There is no conclusive proof that the long term negative effect of cow methane is greater than opposing benefit of the carbon they consume in the form of replenishable grassland.
    Why would you need cows to eat grass from an environmental perspective? The grass is storing carbon and releasing oxygen, that rather handy gas that keeps us alive... so your statements make no sense to me.
    If Wisdom is the coordination of "knowledge and experience" and its deliberate use to improve well being then how come "Ignorance is bliss"

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    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: (M)eat to live... until the animals take over :-p

    Quote Originally Posted by SeriousSam View Post
    Why would you need cows to eat grass from an environmental perspective? The grass is storing carbon and releasing oxygen, that rather handy gas that keeps us alive... so your statements make no sense to me.
    We don't need cows to eat grass, I'm saying there's no proof that they are anything else other than carbon neutral. Ie. there is no real proof that livestock farming has a negative impact on global warming. Outside of the deforestation debate.

    They don't eat the roots lol, the grass grows back, and in areas where there is no animals eating it, the grass height (and carbon storage) will reach a plateau. If eaten the grass will keep growing back.

    In a lot of farms the cattle eat grain, the straw can be used for some feed or even biofuel.

    Deforestation is a different subject, in that it's bad for the environment no matter what the land is used for after removal of the jungle or woodland.

    But as for the pastures that are already in use, unless new evidence comes to light, methane from cows is offset by carbon capture from grain or grass.

    Grass grows and store carbon.
    Cow eats grass.
    Grass re-grows.
    Cow farts.

    Farts are worse for the environment but they disappear faster (fart in the wind)
    Carbon dioxide is not a bad a green house gas, but it lingers for a lot longer.
    So cow farts are carbon neutral.

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    Re: (M)eat to live... until the animals take over :-p

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    We don't need cows to eat grass, I'm saying there's no proof that they are anything else other than carbon neutral. Ie. there is no real proof that livestock farming has a negative impact on global warming. Outside of the deforestation debate.

    They don't eat the roots lol, the grass grows back, and in areas where there is no animals eating it, the grass height (and carbon storage) will reach a plateau. If eaten the grass will keep growing back.

    In a lot of farms the cattle eat grain, the straw can be used for some feed or even biofuel.

    Deforestation is a different subject, in that it's bad for the environment no matter what the land is used for after removal of the jungle or woodland.

    But as for the pastures that are already in use, unless new evidence comes to light, methane from cows is offset by carbon capture from grain or grass.

    Grass grows and store carbon.
    Cow eats grass.
    Grass re-grows.
    Cow farts.

    Farts are worse for the environment but they disappear faster (fart in the wind)
    Carbon dioxide is not a bad a green house gas, but it lingers for a lot longer.
    So cow farts are carbon neutral.
    You realise how much energy it takes to heat the barns etc during the winter, transporting it to the shops etc? The better argument against cows specifically is that ehy're hugely space inefficient.

    They had one of the reports authors on the today programme who seeemed to suggest that their reccomendations were chicken whenever you like, then red meat once or twice a week, as well as no more than 500ml of milk daily. Personally that doesn't sound like too great a hardship - although I still think the assumptions are bollocks. For one that there will be no significant improvements in energy production (which seems to be a theme with these kidn fo reports) and for two that we won't all have progressed to eating vat grown steak in that time.

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    Re: (M)eat to live... until the animals take over :-p

    Quote Originally Posted by herulach View Post
    You realise how much energy it takes to heat the barns etc during the winter, transporting it to the shops etc? The better argument against cows specifically is that ehy're hugely space inefficient.

    They had one of the reports authors on the today programme who seeemed to suggest that their reccomendations were chicken whenever you like, then red meat once or twice a week, as well as no more than 500ml of milk daily. Personally that doesn't sound like too great a hardship - although I still think the assumptions are bollocks. For one that there will be no significant improvements in energy production (which seems to be a theme with these kidn fo reports) and for two that we won't all have progressed to eating vat grown steak in that time.
    In this country. But we are taking globally, besides transporting and heating vegetables takes energy too. Often light is supplemented with sodium or halide lamps, and that a kilo of meat contains more calories than a kilo of carrots so it's more efficient to transport calories/diesel. beef 200Calories carrots 50Calories per 100g.

    I doubt you could make an argument based on energy used to get to market.

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    Re: (M)eat to live... until the animals take over :-p

    INSECTS for the protein/fat win

    One can never stop saying Thank You

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    Re: (M)eat to live... until the animals take over :-p

    I'm surprised European govt hasn't mandated flame stacks on all cows to trap and burn off any methane they produce. It is clearly the most stupid solution and so right up their street

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    Re: (M)eat to live... until the animals take over :-p

    Quote Originally Posted by herulach View Post
    You realise how much energy it takes to heat the barns etc during the winter, transporting it to the shops etc? The better argument against cows specifically is that ehy're hugely space inefficient.
    I grew up on a diary and beef farm. Not once seen heating used in winter - the animals are packed in pretty tight and body heat is enough to keep the place warm.

    Pigs and poultry quite often have heaters in winter though. Maybe we should be redirecting our guilt at overpopulating the planet at them instead?
    Last edited by wasabi; 02-09-2014 at 09:29 AM.

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    Re: (M)eat to live... until the animals take over :-p

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post

    Grass grows and store carbon.
    Cow eats grass.
    Grass re-grows.
    Cow farts.
    What if they don't grow grass where the cattle are being "grazed"



    taken from:
    http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/blog/fo...orest-20090129

    This causes a problem further for the environment.

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