So .... devolution for England?

[Saracen]

Just when you all thought we'd finished talking about devolution and/or independence .....

So, Scotland stays in the UK but now, Westminster has to pony up with it's bribe of "extra powers".

And thus, the "West Lothian" becomes even more important.

The more powers are devolved to the Scotish government, the more iniquitous it becomes that Scottish MPs can vote on matters that affect English constituents, but not their own constituents. For example, income tax rates.

Suppose, for example, income tax is fully devolved. And then, we get a Labour government with a Scottish MP as Chancellor at Westminster. He can then raise income tax rates which affects English (and if it's not devolved, Welsh and NI constituents, but not his own.

Or, a Scottish Health Minister, or Education minister, or whatever, making decisions on those issues despite it not affecting their constituents.

And, if course, the potential for a Labour government only being able to get laws through that affect England by virtue of Scottish MPs when there is not a mandate among English MPs, and when those laws don't affect those Scottish MPs constituents.

There is no democracy in having laws made for us by people they don't affect and that aren't bound by them.

There is now a need, and an increasingly urgent need, for a solution to the WestLothian question, and I can't see a way of doing it without a major constitutional change in the UK.

What we need, IMHO, is a solution where either matters are devolved in all regions, or none. And thus, the benchmark will be Scotland, which sets the high water mark for devolved powers.

Treat the regions equally, the constituents of the regions with equal responsibilities and rights, and ONLY MPs (of whatever legislature) whose constituents are affected by an issue able to vote on it.

That is, some sort of federal arrangement.

[Galant]

Disclaimer: This is about as off-the-cuff as possible but since, in principle, I support the idea of giving as much power and responsibility to individuals and local governments as is possible and reasonable, to that end I'm for 'devo max' for all constituencies/regions.

EDIT - I posted this is the Scottish thread but it's relevant here since it addresses this issue directly. 'The Scottish referendum is bringing devolution to the rest of the UK - and not before time.'

[Saracen]

I rather agree, Galant, but it's a matter for the English to determine how to do that in England, for the Scottish in Scotland, etc.

[adidan]

A Federal system would enable the other nations and the regions who have suffered from lack of investment to at least work their way up to a level playing field I guess.

The West Lothian question will be addressed but I agree with the Welsh First Minister:

Carwyn Jones said: "I want to make clear now that promises made by three UK party leaders have to be delivered. Any reneging would be a gross breach of faith.

"The old union is dead. We need to forge a new one...now is the time to sit together, all four nations, & work this through

"Wales cannot, and will not, play second fiddle as we work up a new constitutional framework.

"We need to start these talks now. The British establishment almost lost the union - the people of these nations must rebuild it"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-29274994

[Galant]

Depending on how this is done it might actually turn into something rather significant with regard to Europe.

The fact that a supposed 'united Europe' suffers a lot of division and countries having their own divisions within themselves has always, in my mind, made a mockery of the idea. A devolved union moving away from centralisation and trusting its member parts/states might well be something of a combined inspiration/two-finger salute to Europe.


EDIT:

I rather agree, Galant, but it's a matter for the English to determine how to do that in England, for the Scottish in Scotland, etc.

I'm with you, though, not quite sure what the "but" is for?

[TeePee]

I'm for a Federal system, provided it has clear limits on where Federal powers end. And No Commerce Clause!

[The Hand]

A federal system is probably the most realistic option for the UK if it's going to hold together for the long term.

[Saracen]

....

EDIT: I'm with you, though, not quite sure what the "but" is for?

I wasn't clear, was I?

What I meant was that getting English matters decided by English ONLY MPs is a prerequisite for deciding what happens within England. I.e. whether we have a sole English Parliament, or choose to devolve some powers/money to regions, or to cities, is for the English to decide, not the current Westminster Parliament, inc. Scots, Welsh, etc. In the same way, if an issue (say, education) is devolved to Scotland and Wales, then it's for their MPs respectively to determine how they do it.

[Andy3536]

The smaller the councils the greater the incompetance.
No need for any changes, with the exeption that an agreement that Scottish MPs don't vote on English only debates. I don't see any would be against that. Probably wouldn't need to enforce it or write new laws at all.
The idea that local councils could have more power, greater powers over tax etc fills me with dread.

[SeriousSam]

The smaller the councils the greater the incompetance.
No need for any changes, with the exeption that an agreement that Scottish MPs don't vote on English only debates. I don't see any would be against that. Probably wouldn't need to enforce it or write new laws at all.
The idea that local councils could have more power, greater powers over tax etc fills me with dread.

The reason councils are full of incompetents is that anyone with any sense or ability becomes an MP / Senior Civil Servant etc. as that's where you can make real change. Besides this is not the question being asked as regionalism will go no further than England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to start with. Over time we may see further decentralisation but it will be a slow laborious process. Not least as rebuilding our ageing infrastructure to meet 21st century requirements is going to throw up some pretty heavyweight arguments... London for example is facing a losing battle against unwanted invaders from the animal kingdom with rats probably being the least of their worries

[wasabi]

Problem with devolving power is that you rarely get sensible regional decisions, just selfishness. e.g. if you give locals power to set transport policy, they set 20 mph speed limits everywhere even though they hate and ignore the very same 20 mph limits everywhere else.

[Noxvayl]

I am in favour of some sort of federal union, however I found it quite weird how Westminister operates in this country. I much prefer having more powers put into local hands, but with that there needs to be some sort of check and balance, preferably in terms of transparency so locals can question and interrogate what is happening. As wasabi said there is often more incentive to make things difficult for locals when parents get a bee in their bonnet about the safety of our roads, especially when they think that speed is the culprit rather than unaware and otherwise nonchalant drivers.

Despite that I feel local powers are more likely to be beneficial than centralised decision making. It is difficult to understand the issue properly when you have no stake in it, when your world isn't impacted by the decision.

I am liking this renewed focus on how our politics works. It will be good for the UK even if they don't get it right the first time round, at least we are heading in a better direction than the EU is.

[Top_gun]

As a born and bred Londoner, I would not want to be part of a devolved England. London has its own layers of governance when you think about the GLA and London Councils though sadly the Tories abolished the Government Office for London. There is legislation place for the Local Authorities to work with the Mayor on strategic issues such as planning and transport. In fact, the more I think about it, I like to see London become a state in itself considering the city has nearly twice the size of Scotland in terms of population.

[TheAnimus]

A Federal system would enable the other nations and the regions who have suffered from lack of investment to at least work their way up to a level playing field I guess.

I don't see that happening.

I think if we have more federalised view, the richer areas will be more concerned about taking care of their own. As is people in London get pissed off with the reaction of say the North East when we spend money on something like Crossrail, because we receive less in benefits than we pay in taxes. The reaction sometimes feels like how dare you only subsidise us by xyz, it should be more!

I can't see people voting to help a different state. The 'socialist' people in Scotland were voting to not let the commodity wealth be shared, it isn't exactly subsidising the richer.

If we go down this path, the spending gap between provinces will surely widen.

[SeriousSam]

As a born and bred Londoner, I would not want to be part of a devolved England. London has its own layers of governance when you think about the GLA and London Councils though sadly the Tories abolished the Government Office for London. There is legislation place for the Local Authorities to work with the Mayor on strategic issues such as planning and transport. In fact, the more I think about it, I like to see London become a state in itself considering the city has nearly twice the size of Scotland in terms of population.

"Trip, trap, trip, trap! " went the bridge.

[ik9000]

London can't break away. It's only resource is money, and that won't last. There is a benefit to having the land space, farming, distribution centres, nature, factories etc of the rest of the country. It is arrogant and naive for a city to think it would be better off alone, and it would not be. Same as a whole country of Scotland would not have been. For pities sake, consistency in the logic please!


Saracen, I'm wary of federalisation because I see the potential for a great balls up of inequality too marked. However if devo max is happening then there needs to be a vote on it down here, and definitely MPs who are not affected by it MUST be vetoed from voting on matters outwith their constituency/devolved region. Irrespective of their position.

What worries me is cabinet ministers setting policy who are say Scottish when that policy is English education. In that event we need a separate English parliament. Which is basically federalisation. It may be the only sensible outcome of this mess.

The second Cameron blinked and starting making rash promises I saw this mess coming. He should have said "you're in or you're out. No concessions, no bribes, you're either in with the benefits of the union, or you're out and good luck to you." He didn't, he blinked, and what a mess we now have! Bet he's rubbish at poker.