How hard can it be to get a refund?

[Allen]

So it looks like Frontier Developments are thieving scum intent on ripping me, and many others, off. Very sad about this. Had such high hopes, and they have now completely and utterly destroyed my faith in any developer after promising so much and turning out to be yet another scum of the Earth, thieving, money grabbing whore of a company.

After recent news that they were removing offline mode from the development of the game I opened a ticket with them with regards to a refund. Initially the ticket was closed and I was a bit upset. Then I read they were dealing with refund cases individually, but mine still remained closed, so I raised another ticket. To my annoyance, they stalled and stalled, taking longer and longer to reply to each message, asking me to confirm stuff, trying to tell me they thought I would like the game better playing online (the bloody cheek of trying to tell me what I'd like best)! Eventually they replied confirming they would refund £35 of the £50 I paid to pre-purchase the game. However, nothing arrived in my bank and they continued to ignore my replies.

Seeing others were suffering the same poor service on their forums, I decided to take the matter to PayPal. I created a dispute claiming back the £50 and awaited their decision.

After careful consideration, we're unable to decide this claim in your favour at this time.

The listing accurately described the item you received. We cannot grant claims based on buyer's remorse.

What kind of idiocy is this? How can they possibly say the listing "accurately described" the item I received? How am I possibly claiming based on "buyer's remorse"? I am so bloody furious right now I feel like I am being shafted by both companies, both intent on ripping me off, and it feels like I can do nothing about it. I can't do anything with the PayPal claim, I can't get any response from the developers and the transaction is now to old to dispute with Visa (thanks to their delaying tactics)!

What can I do about this now? Is that it, or can companies rip people off however and whenever they like with no repercussions?

[Saracen]

Well, first, I entirely agree with you about the offine v. online issue. I have no interest in online gaming, and WILL NOT buy a game that requires a net connection .... which my games machine does not have.

However .... I guess it's kinda "buyer's remorse" in buying into a Kickstarter project, where the exact nature of the product you're buying isn't written in stone. So, a lot will, IMHO, depend on exactly what was promised, to the extent of being guaranteed, in the original Kickstarter project, and what was suggested, but subject to change.

As for what you can do to force either the developer or PayPal to issue a refund, my guess would be .... not much.

The moral of the tale, IMHO, don't buy a pig in a poke in future. Don't invest in Kickstarter projects unless you're prepared to take a bit if a punt. Because you are doing so. If you're not prepared to, be patient, wait, and check out the final product before committing.

I don't mean to sound unsympathetic. Believe me, I feel for you. All I can suggest is putting it down as an experience that forms one of those lessons in life that we learn from ... and a relatively cheap one, at that.

Keep pushing for a refund by all means, though, and I genuinely wish you the best of luck. The developer may, eventually, come through. PayPal, though .... I ain't holding my breath.

[TheAnimus]

trying to tell me they thought I would like the game better playing online (the bloody cheek of trying to tell me what I'd like best)!

Actually... This is often really, really true. When you are developing something, often as the nature of what you are doing becomes apparent, certain limitations kick in. In this case, the kind of game they could have offered which had an offline mode, you might well not have remotely enjoyed, because there is no game to it.

I feel slightly sorry for them with this, because the whole offline mode has been communicated very badly, and based on what they claim they've been doing I can see why they rely on the online world to provide the entropy, but this is the issue with raising money via a kickstart type thing, and why I'm constantly telling people not to do it.

Kickstarter is all the downside of being an investor without any real upside. A 10% saving on a product that will be better in a later version? Wow! Even the most interesting kickstarter I've seen, the form labs one, shows, that it arrives late (very common in product development) but also that the version right after it is better.

For kickstarer to work with consumer style demands the project has to be almost finished (or very simple) as people will want it later that year. They will not be happy with the idea of waiting longer, as often the more you wait, the more things will change. So anything that is that close to being realised, probably doesn't need kickstarter anyway, they will have other ways of raising money open to them, ones that allow those taking the risk (investing) to get some reward (profit, rather than a poor mk1 product).

Kickstarter to me, is often a brilliant example of the 'vally' mentality, where it pretends to be all nice and huggy feely, but in fact is much, much worse than the system before it. Bro-down!

[Allen]

Thanks for the replies guys, however, I should clarify something. I pre-ordered the game from their website in August, long after the Kickstarter campaign had ended. I don't know what rules apply to pre-order compared to Kickstarter, but my understanding is with Kickstarter you aren't even guaranteed to get a product because it's in the "idea" stage. However, pre-ordering should surely be a different kettle of fish and covered by some kind of consumer protection laws?

I guess I will try and call Natwest about a VISA chargeback, see what they say, but as it's been over 3 months due to their stalling tactics, and that the payment was to PayPal I doubt they will help.

[wasabi]

Still havn't played the final version. I got so put off by slow / lousy tech support on the beta I kinda lost faith in the project. Tried and failed the Paypal refund route at the time while they gave no tech support for overa week after raising the IT DOESN'T EVEN LAUNCH case along with my more than adequate system specs. Sobering lesson to me about paying upfront for unfinished goods.

[yamangman]

Visiting their head office in person worked for me. Not a solution for all of course but I do live just down the street. Doubtless I'd be in the same boat as you if I didn't.

[Saracen]

Thanks for the replies guys, however, I should clarify something. I pre-ordered the game from their website in August, long after the Kickstarter campaign had ended. I don't know what rules apply to pre-order compared to Kickstarter, but my understanding is with Kickstarter you aren't even guaranteed to get a product because it's in the "idea" stage. However, pre-ordering should surely be a different kettle of fish and covered by some kind of consumer protection laws?

I guess I will try and call Natwest about a VISA chargeback, see what they say, but as it's been over 3 months due to their stalling tactics, and that the payment was to PayPal I doubt they will help.

Two issues there, IMHO.

First, yeah, I'd say "pre-order" affects your consumer rights (assuming the seller is UK-based and the contract is under UK law - check their sales T&C's). If they said "can be played offline" and it can't, I'd say that's a clear cut example of "not as described" under Sale of Goods Act. So .... if you can be bothered, write to them and give them a 'reasonable' period to issue the refund, say 7 days, or you will "have no alternative" but to consider legal action. Be polite but professional and firm.

As for NatWest, you've correctly identified the problem - two contracts :-

1) Seller and you, via PayPal as the payment method.

2) You and PayPal, with the PayPal account settled via NatWest.

Unless things have changed since last time I looked (and something nags at the back of my memory saying it has, or was at least being proposed) that distinction isolates the card company from any consumer law obligation, though what NW do as a goodwill gesture may be different. But even without that, the law that makes the card company liable only applues to credit cards (not debit) and to transactions over £100 (and under £30k, but that's rarely an issue).

As a pre-order, my reaction would be the 'pay up or court' route BUT .... be aware that if you do that and still get nowhere, you've burned some bridges and pretty much either have to take small claims cout action, or give up and write it off.

Personally, I'd be .... erm .... 'peeved' enough to send the recorded delivery pay up or else letter, and then if need be, take the court action. It's a pain, but on principle, I don't like getting screwed. If you do, my guess is it's unlikely they'll even try to defend it, and won't want a CCW against them if they don't, which implies paying up. They probably also won't want to spend the time or hassle of showing up in court. It's more trouble than it's worth.

Be aware, though, there are ways an awkward company can jerk you around, being 'ill" on the day, etc, up until the judge gets fed up with them jerking him/her around too. Been there, done that. It can still sometimes be hard work getting them to pay up, but debt collectors threatening asset seizures often works wonders, and is VERY satisfying.

[Allen]

Thanks Saracen. I have already been in contact with Frontier Developments through their ticket system for over a month and PayPal for the past 2 weeks, neither of them will budge and they are not responding any more it seems.

Also NatWest, whilst sympathetic, told me there was nothing they could do to assist and suggested CAB, an Ombudsmen or to look into small claims court.

Whilst I have put up a good fight, and was doing this for the principal of developers making single player games online only (an extreme peeve of mine), I have decided to not waste any further time on this. In that respect, I am forced to play the game online rather than throw £50 down the drain.

Sad that the games industry is doing more to piss me off these past few years than to entertain me.

[Saracen]

I sympathise, Allen. And it does indeed come down to 'wasting time'. Question is who's least prepared to 'waste time'? You, or Frontier?

Some years ago (about 30) my car was stolen, then recovered. The insurance company jerked me about over the claim for months. About 6 months, to be exact. Eventually, I blew a fuse and told them I'd sue. The claims controller kinda shrugged, so I asked for his fax number. Why, he said. I just want to fax you the small claims court paperwork before I submit it to the court, because it's here, completed, ready to be sent to the court. That slowed him up a bit. I think he assumed "see you in court" was the usual empty threat. It wasn't. I fully intended to take court action because, well, first it was over about £3500, second, I had a cast-iron case, and third, they had jerked me about for months. First they tried the silly low-ball offer. Then they tried excluding this and that. For instance, objecting to the car hire charge saying I should have hired a small, cheap car. My response was it's a business vehicle, covered for business use and if I'd wanted a small, cheap uncomfortable, low-powered car, I wouldn't have bought a Capri 2.8i in the first place. The hire car was a Sierra 2.8i, which was the closest I could get to a direct one-for-one match to the Capri.

Ultimately, the agreed (in writing) to everything except some credit card charges, mwhich, they informed me, it's against policy to pay. I pointed out that the ONLY reason the card charges had been incurred was because they dragged their heels for so long reimbursing me, and that they'd been warned, two MONTHS in advance of the charges becoming due that the car eas booked in for repair work, and that they could either settle directly with the garage, or reimburse me BEFORE the credit card bill became due, but if they didn't, charges would start accruing.

And that's what the court threat was about - some £32 in credit card charges. They'd sent me a cheque for the other £3500, in "full and final settlement". I sent it back. Told them those charges were entirely their fault, due to their dragging their heels reimbursing costs they knew full well were justified, and I was not going to accept a penny less. And, by the way, the clock is ticking on those charges. If the credit card company add more charges, I increase the claim accordingly.

I told the claims controller, on the phone, that faxing him the court paperwork was a courtesy, but that if I didn't have a settlement cheque, in my hand in 48 hours, the case WAS going to court, and he could explain to the judge why they'd duckdd, dived and dodged, and tried to weasel out of paying a fair claim, for over 6 months. But, I pointed out, small claims track judges generally don't like having their time wasted by one party, especially big companies facing a private individual, acting unreasonably. If he felt he could convince the judge that these months of delay were reasonable, and that me oaying charges because they couldn't settle promptly was reasonable, then by all means, let's let the judge decide. I was absolutely up for that. In fact, I was postively loking forward to arguing it with them, in front of the judge.

And ultimately, all because they were being bloody-minded about £30 in credit card charges. Well, guess what? It turns out that "policy" or not to not pay charges, they actually can, if they want to. A cheque in full settlement arrived by motorbike courier the next day.

My point, I guess, is that it's largely about psychology.

I WANTED my day in court. They didn't want to go to court. It was going to cost them time, would probably be embarrassing, they were almost certain to lose, and that was exactly the kind of case (big company treading all over little private individually) when small claims court judges do everything they can to use costs, against the big company, punitively. Sadly, they're very limited in what they can do, but I had lists of time spent, cab fares incurred, train fares to work, mileage to and from the garage, right down to every last postage stamp and minute of phone calls, just in case the judge wanted to go that way (which was, IMHO, very possible).

In effect, I out-psych'ed them. I truly was quite happy to go to court. They weren't. I called their bluff, and they (correctly) concluded mine wasn't a bluff.

So .... the moral of the tale? If you want to be awkward, go the small claims route. It's neither hard, nor expensive. You do pay the nominal fee up-front, but should at least get that back if/when you win. Odds are they'll concede before getting to court. If not, odds are they won't show up on the day. If they do contest it, it's not a full 'court' experience - it's both parties sitting in an office with the judge, and maybe a court staffer taking notes (but maybe not). It's as simple, informal and unintimidating as that.

I've used this technique several times, when I really felt I was being treated unfairly. I didn't expect it to get to court (barring one occassion) and was right, it didn't. But, since I was absolutely willing to let it go to court, and even went along a couple of times only to get judgement by default (and costs) when the other party simply failed to show up, without excuse or prior notice to the court (thereby thoroughly irritating the judge, who had his time wasted, too, and was NOT happy about it ) they correctly concluded I wasn't bluffing.

But you could use this method and be bluffing, as long as the other side don't think you are.

You asked how hard it can get to get a refund? Well, that's how hard it can get.

Ultimately, if they won't refund you willingly, it might require escalation to threat of court, or to actually starting the proceedings, or to actually going to 'court', or even to getting the judgement then having to go through enforcement action.

That latter bit has perils of it's own, and I can comment on that a bit too if you want, but it's way jumping the gun at this point.

So yeah, you either have to write it off to experience, as you suggest you will, or be prepared to at least put in the effort to make it look like you're really going to go to court. Odds are, if you do, it won't come to that. But .... be prepared, 'cos it might. If it does, it's really not that big a deal.

[MaddAussie]

I'd say do it Allen, although I've bought the game and am loving it (feel very nostalgic playing Elite how I imagined it back when I was 12 or so) you where expecting something that you didn't get. Fight your corner.

[Ttaskmaster]

Still havn't played the final version.

But have you played any of the Alpha, Beta or Gamma versions?
If so, that's what the remaining £15 was, you got what you paid for and used the product, so would not be eligible for a refund on that part.
The other £35 that you got back was the actual release version of the game, at a discounted price.

However, pre-ordering should surely be a different kettle of fish and covered by some kind of consumer protection laws?

Depends on the description - If you advance-ordered something at a time when it was knowingly unfinished and subject to change then the Trades Description Act will account for this and likely only apply the description of the final delivery product.

There is so much ranting over the 'removal' of this Offline mode, which was only ever something they were trying to do and never officially committed to deliver in the first place. In short, nothing was actually 'promised' in that respect.

*Technically*, they've done nothing wrong and most unhappy people whining about "broken promises" simply didn't read the descriptions fully, but FD have not helped themselves because, while they did state everything very precisely, they did not make it abundantly clear in big bold, underlined text. They assumed everyone would read everything thoroughly.

[yamangman]

Marketing promises made and undelivered. Frontier refunded me after I spoke with their COO regarding this issue. Your opinions don't really hold any weight

[–]j6wbs 6 points 1 year ago
I still play the original Elite on my laptop on the way to work. Will I be able to play 'Elite: Dangerous' in a single player mode without any connection to the net? Thanks.

[–]DavidBraben[S] 7 points 1 year ago
Yes, though you will lose the richness of multiplayer.

But have you played any of the Alpha, Beta or Gamma versions?
If so, that's what the remaining £15 was, you got what you paid for and used the product, so would not be eligible for a refund on that part.
The other £35 that you got back was the actual release version of the game, at a discounted price.


Depends on the description - If you advance-ordered something at a time when it was knowingly unfinished and subject to change then the Trades Description Act will account for this and likely only apply the description of the final delivery product.

There is so much ranting over the 'removal' of this Offline mode, which was only ever something they were trying to do and never officially committed to deliver in the first place. In short, nothing was actually 'promised' in that respect.

*Technically*, they've done nothing wrong and most unhappy people whining about "broken promises" simply didn't read the descriptions fully, but FD have not helped themselves because, while they did state everything very precisely, they did not make it abundantly clear in big bold, underlined text. They assumed everyone would read everything thoroughly.

[HalloweenJack]

I`ve also opened a dispute with paypal regarding frontier - but my claim is slightly different - I bought and paid fo both the digital game AND the DVD - the dvd has gone from being available to `on hold` and pre order , with a post on their forum saying they are having production issues.


therefore my dispute is regarding the physical media not being shipped , and wanting a refund for that (£13 - dvd +standard shipping).

[Splash]

I've not been on the forums for a while, but I've physical stuff due - as far as I was aware they were still due this month. Don't suppose you've a link to the production issues post? I had a quick search but their search function is awful...

[Ttaskmaster]

Marketing promises made and undelivered. Frontier refunded me after I spoke with their COO regarding this issue. Your opinions don't really hold any weight

That's not an opinion, that is how consumer law works.
If the retailer still chooses to provide a full or partial refund, it is at their complete discretion but they are not required to provide one.

Also, your ONE quote of some random Reddit post holds no weight with regard to proving that FD actually PROMISED anything.
Nowhere in the official Frontier Developments documentation, be it website, email or anything of that ilk do they say definitely, absolutely, certainly, 100% guaranteed and may god strike us down if we don't deliver, that they WOULD include Offline mode in the final product... All they have ever said (and have said numerous times) is that they would try and were working on it.
If you can find an OFFICIAL statement from FD stating otherwise, THEN I would believe you.

If you simply misread or misinterpreted these official statements as something else, then you have built up your own fantasy and let yourself down. You, or anyone else bleating about broken promises are whining about something that never actually existed.

[HalloweenJack]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ject_faq_43734

Update! The above is the intended single player experience. However it will be possible to have a single player game without connecting to the galaxy server. You won't get the features of the evolving galaxy (although we will investigate minimising those differences) and you probably won't be able to sync between server and non-server (again we'll investigate).

kickstart FAQ - they promised both single player and offline.