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Thread: Illegal Entry @ Channel Tunnel...

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    Re: Illegal Entry @ Channel Tunnel...

    I think most of the problems are based on falsehoods, many of them believe that as soon as they make it onto UK soil, they can suddenly claim asylum and then get a job as well as housing and educational support. Even if they manage to make it ashore there are numerous barriers to all of this which I think many of them do not realise.

    On top of that most of the reactions are knee jerk: an unknown group of people want what the same as we have and we have no idea how they are going to achieve it, it provokes the medieval I need to build myself a castle to guard my stuff mentality. The sad thing is there is unlikely to be any change and the status quo will persist. I think the general consensus in government is we do not want them, the French don't want to make any kind of permanent decision regardless of international and EU law and the Calais authorities lack any means of making those decisions.

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    Senior Member Peter Parker's Avatar
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    Re: Illegal Entry @ Channel Tunnel...

    Quote Originally Posted by Macman View Post
    If you had the same power as Mr. Cameron, how would you apply a solution?
    Sticking to the original question, there's not a huge amount that he or anyone in that position can do alone, and I doubt there's a simple practical solution because if there were it'd be implemented "tout de suite".

    The extreme suggestions like shooting people and closing the borders aren't workable (even ignoring moral issues) because they're either illegal, would be vetoed, would be refused by those that have to implement them, or are economically unsound. For example the commercial value of freight going through the tunnel is more than the cost of illegal immigration and asylum seekers.

    This is also nothing new - http://www.theguardian.com/world/200...immigration.uk . Nothing very productive was done in 2001 so I doubt it'll change this time.

    What remains as options? Short-term to long-term it'll be spending money on the standard stuff:

    * More police with dog patrols
    * More fences and barbed wire
    * Improve facilities to process people in France or elsewhere in EU
    * Lots of politics to try and deal with the problems in Africa and southern/eastern EU

    In comparison to Italy and Greece, I suspect the 4000-5000 people in Calais are a tiny number. More of a concern is the demographics for the next 50-100 years. For example Africa currently has ~1.2 billion people and is expected to double by 2050. If the current migration levels, regardless of the causes, are a problem for us then we had better start looking at those long-term options more seriously. More fences just won't help.

    Today there's a group of native Brits and a group of immigrants who probably don't get along but have a lot in common. They're poor, uneducated and unemployed. They're likely to stay that way and the numbers are growing. If there were jobs for all people, immigrant or not, then they'd be seen as less of a burden and more a part of society. I have no magic solution here either.

    Finally, on a personal note, I'm the son of a legal immigrant and grandson of an illegal immigrant, from two totally unrelated parts of the world. I'm almost certainly biased, and can't be used as statistical proof, but I'm in a very high percentile of income distribution and generating some nice tax revenue for the government. You're welcome.

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    Re: Illegal Entry @ Channel Tunnel...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Parker View Post
    ...

    The extreme suggestions like shooting people and closing the borders aren't workable (even ignoring moral issues) because they're either illegal, would be vetoed, would be refused by those that have to implement them, or are economically unsound. For example the commercial value of freight going through the tunnel is more than the cost of illegal immigration and asylum seekers. ...
    No doubt, on commercial value of freight. And no doubt closing the tunnel ... not borders, but the tunnel, would involve costs. But freight would not cease. It'd go other ways. So, good news for ferry companies, shipping companies, etc. Also, good news for British lorry drivers, operating here. It's more nuanced than sinply value of freight versus cost of illegal immigrants, though even the cost of the latter is extremely hard to quantify, not least because of assessing costs to infrastructure, from housing pressures to schools to GPs surgeries, but also by definition, illegals find it hard to get legit work, which fuels the black market thus depriving government of income on multiple levels, from NI on wages to tax on business profits.

    So when you compare freight values to costs, what you OUGHT to be comparing is the delta in freight costs, not values, to ALL costs associated with illegal immigration and that is extremely hard, if not impossible, to quantify because, by definition, much of it is illegal.

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    Re: Illegal Entry @ Channel Tunnel...

    totally off the wall idea.


    setup a job centre on French soil.


    advertise the jobs which have been `on the system` long term which the work shy british people don't want to do, sandwich making in factories etc.

    go through process with an immigrant , interview etc at that French side centre. when accepted they can then move to the UK - WITH A JOB.

    thus fulfilling a number of criteria for entry, the immigrant has a job and thus contributes to society.

  5. #53
    HEXUS.Metal Knoxville's Avatar
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    Re: Illegal Entry @ Channel Tunnel...

    Quote Originally Posted by HalloweenJack View Post
    Knoxville


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-tell-why.html

    ^^ think that says it all.
    It does a very good job of not saying it all to be honest, as I'd expect a Daily Mail article to. It starts out not far from the truth but reading past the halfway mark the points I'm clearly supposed to take away are that these Eastern European workers are implying that British people don't want work for a living the way they're willing to and that because of the tax credits they can recieve while legally permitted to work here they're costing us £5 billion a year at the same time. Oh, and that a member of the local council near the factory that hired the workers thinks having to recruit in Hungary isn't looking hard enough (really?) and that in some way all of this puts a strain on his public services.

    What it doesn't mention is that these Eastern European factory workers are paying the same income tax and national insurance as you and I would be if we worked there, recieving the same benefits we're entitled to and paying the same amount of VAT on everything they buy as everybody else does. So they aren't a drain on this poor chaps public services, if anything they're helping him out. Prior to them living and working there he had 7000 unemployed Brits not putting anything at all into the pot to support with taxes paid by the people living in that borough that are actually working and putting money into the system. He now has more people to support with those public services but at least those people are tax payers in his borough and paying their own way. Extra customers don't tend to harm local businesses either, whatever country they're from. It's that the Brits in his town wouldn't lower themselves to work there that's putting a strain on his public services if anything.

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    Token 'murican GuidoLS's Avatar
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    Re: Illegal Entry @ Channel Tunnel...

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Increase developmental aid and tackle the problems that lead to people fleeing their country in the first place.
    First and foremost, what's driving these people to leave their homelands is genocide, some of which is being driven by outside forces (Boko Harem in E. Africa and ISIS in Syria and the rest of the Middle East), and some of which is being driven by the governments, like Assad in Syria, Libya falling apart and Iraq fostering dissent amongst it's own people. And like it or not, there's a segment of that population that likes it that way. That wants to go back the the 14th century and earlier. Survival of the strongest.

    In other parts of Africa, the exodus is being driven by political corruption that's gotten to the point of causing abject poverty for the general population, while relatives of those in power are multi-millionaires and billionaires. That's similar to the problem we have with illegal immigration in the US. You folks measure the illegals in hundreds and thousands. We measure them in the 10's of millions.

    And lest we forget our history, WE were the problem. Colonialism, both militarily and industrially. Interference in local and national governments. The list goes on. And nothing we do, right or wrong, will ever be part of the solution. Financial aid only benefits those that are the corrupt in the government and military. Military aid seemingly only helps those it was intended to fight, or goes to prop up governments that are, in reality, the problem, but are still our so-called allies.

    My solution is simplistic - don't close or seal the borders. Just have a selection of turnstiles, well guarded, with the appropriate officials there, on the spot, to consider each case. Have the right answers and you can come in. Have the wrong answers, and you go back to whence you came. Then again, I'm all for letting people that want to go fight for ISIS to do so. We can even send them over on one of our cargo planes... and we can drop them off in the middle of the war zone. Note, I didn't say anything about landing the plane, nor did I mention a parachute. If your cause is just, and your god is truly on your side, you should land whole, in one piece, and not just form a red splotch in the sand, right?

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    Token 'murican GuidoLS's Avatar
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    Re: Illegal Entry @ Channel Tunnel...

    Quote Originally Posted by TeePee View Post
    It's hard to believe the UK economy is doing that badly. In the US it's booming, companies are struggling to find enough people to work, in almost every industry.
    A lot of that depends on which part of the country you're in. Things aren't quite that good here in the SE - to the point where our unemployment rates are starting to trend up again, not that they ever came down to any real level of normalcy. And of the jobs that are available, they're almost all service industry related. McDonalds. Walmart. Etc. They're jobs, but they barely pay the bills, and there's nothing left over. But this is OT - at least in the regards that there aren't a line of Americans storming the tunnel. At least not yet. We'll see what happens after the next election.

  8. #56
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    Re: Illegal Entry @ Channel Tunnel...

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    by definition, much of it is illegal.
    And yet somehow the tabloid press are somehow able to quantify this mythical figure, and use it to stir up all manner of shenanigans...

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    Re: Illegal Entry @ Channel Tunnel...

    Quote Originally Posted by GuidoLS View Post
    ....

    My solution is simplistic - don't close or seal the borders. Just have a selection of turnstiles, well guarded, with the appropriate officials there, on the spot, to consider each case. Have the right answers and you can come in. Have the wrong answers, and you go back to whence you came. Then again, I'm all for letting people that want to go fight for ISIS to do so. We can even send them over on one of our cargo planes... and we can drop them off in the middle of the war zone. Note, I didn't say anything about landing the plane, nor did I mention a parachute. If your cause is just, and your god is truly on your side, you should land whole, in one piece, and not just form a red splotch in the sand, right?
    We already have that. It's called "an immigration system". Novel idea, I know, but people apply at an embassy, fill out a form (answering questions), attend an interview, produce evidence to support assertions made, and get an answer, which consists of visa or no-visa. "Closing borders" doesn't apply to that. The closing of borders being discussed here is a rather ineffectual atempt to implement "well guarded turnstiles" so that people don't just climb over and ignore the turnstiles. Rather like fences and border guards on your Mexican border, but on a rather smaller scale.

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    Re: Illegal Entry @ Channel Tunnel...

    Quote Originally Posted by Splash View Post
    And yet somehow the tabloid press are somehow able to quantify this mythical figure, and use it to stir up all manner of shenanigans...
    I sincerely hope your not expecting a defence of tabloid press from me. If you are, you're in for a disappointment.

  11. #59
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    Re: Illegal Entry @ Channel Tunnel...

    Quote Originally Posted by Knoxville View Post
    It's that the Brits in his town wouldn't lower themselves to work there that's putting a strain on his public services if anything.
    Then the answer would appear to be get the Brits off their backside and make them work. Presumably the reason for the welfare budget taking such big hits in the government cuts. It could be argued that if a person continually turns down work that they could evidently do they don't deserve further benefits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knoxville View Post
    These Eastern European workers are implying that British people don't want work for a living the way they're willing to
    The work ethic from Eastern Europeans stems from much harsher benefits there. One Romanian I work with explained they get 3 months unemployment benefit. That is all. Lose your job? Government helps you for 3 months. Haven't found another one in time? Tough. When you have to deal with that sort of reality, you learn to work to look after yourself and your family. No wonder they graft!

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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Illegal Entry @ Channel Tunnel...

    Obviously this is nothing to do with Eastern Europeans - they are perfectly entitled to come to this country and work here. It's illegal immigrants we're talking about in this thread.

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    Re: Illegal Entry @ Channel Tunnel...

    @kalniel: Andy3536 suggested in post 43 that there is a greater moral argument for letting those from tough area (outside) in than those from Europe who can already freely move within.

    Quote Originally Posted by OilSheikh View Post
    Many of them are from Nigeria and Ghana[...]
    Any source to back that up?

    I do not doubt that there are some very wealthy individual in various African countries, just as you would in many other countries. Those aren't trying to smuggle themselves into the UK. They don't need to. They are comfortably more wealthy than most of us.

    That said, while Nigeria is indeed the wealthiest country in West Africa, and amongst the wealthiest in the continent. Yet it is also a country that has experienced terror attacks, had hundreds of young girls kidnapped, and still struggling to contain the issue. Not only that, but the majority are living in poverty.

    Ghana's GDP (any measure), is still a fraction of Greece and even a smaller fraction than the UK. Their economic outlook is good at the moment with good growth and low unemployment, and lower public debt. As things get better, there will be less incentive for any perilous journey across two continents. Heck, some may choose to go back (just as some oversea Chinese around the world are/were looking to go back).

    Those things won't happen instantly though but that is why we need to take a long view to any solution. Knee jerk reaction isn't going to fix it, as others said before it has to be tackled from the source, and whether we help or not, the world is so entangled now that we can't say their problem isn't our problem, because it inevitably will be.

    If the situation were reversed we'd do the same thing.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Personally, I am on the same page as Peter Parker. On one hand, no we can't simply let everyone in, and no, strictly speaking it isn't necessarily our problem. So more fences and whatnot to make it harder to get in make sense. But in the long term we need to get involved in making their lives better as that has a mutual benefit.
    Last edited by TooNice; 05-08-2015 at 06:49 PM. Reason: Spelling

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    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Illegal Entry @ Channel Tunnel...

    Thanks - remote posting from South America so not always seeing whole picture, apologies

    We could set up a booth giving free french lessons in Calais

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  16. #63
    OilSheikh
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    Re: Illegal Entry @ Channel Tunnel...

    Quote Originally Posted by TooNice View Post
    Any source to back that up?
    Have you not been reading articles on BBC's site? They have had articles about the migrant journey, etc. Do you think they are all Chinese ?

  17. #64
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    Re: Illegal Entry @ Channel Tunnel...

    Quote Originally Posted by TeePee View Post
    It's hard to believe the UK economy is doing that badly.
    Well, my understanding of a good economy is when the residents contribute more than what they take from the Govt.

    We have millions of foreigners from the European continent flooding our country. Most claim every benefit available to them and get free Council houses. The govt. has to pay rent for these houses and the money comes from the Treasury. Those that buy their properties ... well , how does one have £10k or more with them if they have recently arrived within a year or two ? The govt. has also been building new flats for them , again using it's own money.
    Most of the men also work for cash only and do not pay taxes. And, every family sends money to their home country.
    Then, there's costs where schools have become overcrowded, policing the increased no. of criminals, NHS, etc.

    It's little surprise that our economy is doing so badly. And, things will get much worse.

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