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Thread: EU Referendum date set ....

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    Re: EU Referendum date set ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    But unless we want or agree to a deal like Norway, what relevance does that have? Is anyone calling for a Norway-type deal?
    Yeah, that's a faulty comparison. Norway might be a real world example, but Britain could easily leverage the EU for its own more favourable trade agreement, the main powers in the EU would trip over themselves to make it happen or they risk losing a very significant amount of exports.
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    Re: EU Referendum date set ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Oh, no, I'm not falling for that. Nicely baited, Kal, but I can see the hook just fine. I had that argument during a philosophy course at university. Once was enough, thanks.
    Ironically having watched David Eagleman* this week I was seriously tempted to "bite the hook", but real life and the need to re-roof and paint a shed while the sun is shining took precedence.

    * http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...-do-i-need-you
    If Wisdom is the coordination of "knowledge and experience" and its deliberate use to improve well being then how come "Ignorance is bliss"

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    Re: EU Referendum date set ....

    Quote Originally Posted by HalloweenJack View Post
    got a link about Norway I can read?
    Unfortunately not, was I read it in one of those dead tree news delivery things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    But unless we want or agree to a deal like Norway, what relevance does that have? Is anyone calling for a Norway-type deal?
    True, it was just interesting as I didn't really know how Norway interacted with the EU. Although, I think it has been mentioned as an example of how countries can be in the EEA but not the EU.

    The article basically said that Norway has to enact all relevant EU legislation that relates to trade with the bloc without having the ability to reject, modify or influence it directly.

    Tbh, the most amusing part of all of this is just how much the In campaign is starting to sound like the SNP Out campaign back in 2014.

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    Re: EU Referendum date set ....

    The EU doesn't want a European country the size of the UK outside the EU that potentially could act as a centre of gravity for other smaller EU states to revolve around if they leave too.

    Just imagine in time there could form two rival trading and political European blocks, the EU lead by Germany and France and everyone else lead by the UK.

    The EU is in favour of One currency, One parliament, One Union!
    Last edited by The Hand; 24-02-2016 at 04:53 PM. Reason: typo

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    Re: EU Referendum date set ....

    Quote Originally Posted by BobF64 View Post
    ....

    True, it was just interesting as I didn't really know how Norway interacted with the EU. Although, I think it has been mentioned as an example of how countries can be in the EEA but not the EU.

    The article basically said that Norway has to enact all relevant EU legislation that relates to trade with the bloc without having the ability to reject, modify or influence it directly.

    Tbh, the most amusing part of all of this is just how much the In campaign is starting to sound like the SNP Out campaign back in 2014.
    My reservations on the comparison are based on the fact that the UK is not Norway, though. Or Switzerland either, for that matter.

    Norway chose, for it's own reasons, to be part of Schengen, for instance. And while I'm far from expert on Norway, I'd duggest the biggest single difference between the UK and Norway is we are an island, not to mention a historic traring and maritime nation, which forms a core part of our history and tradition, while Norway's history and tradition are as a Scandinavian country with VERY close links, and a ruddy great land border, with EU member state Sweden, for instance. Not a small number of Norwegians live in one country, work in the other, and don't really want to have to produce passports at the border to cross over.

    I'd raise one other issue, too.

    Somewhat like the UK, Norway's poliyical elite, more or less across the board of ths mainstream (like the UK) were pro-EU and wanted to join. But the people said no, in a referendum. So, as they do, how did the political elite respond? By signing a series of agreements that effectively led to most aspects of membership without being members. It does not strike me as a glowing example of the principles of democracy at work.

    Howevef, in any bilateral agreement, any country holding all the cards is hoing to pretty much dictate terms. If Norway, in the form of political elite, wants in, but the people said no, the EU has a strong hand.

    We're not wanting in. In fact we're holding a referendum about wsnting OUT. Negotiations about relations won't take place unless we vote out, in which case the core argument is about trade.

    And yes, within the bounds of superceding rules like WTO, the EU could impose tariffs. But so could we. If the EU imposed tariffs of, say, 8% on British cheese exports (as suggested in the UK farmers union meeting currently on, we impose 8% tariffs on, among others, French cheese exports to the UK. If they clobber us on British beef (of whatever), we clobber them on EU wine (or whatever).

    There is no rational (Hi, Kal, yes I see you there ) reason for a tit-for-tat tariff war based on nothing but spite because we opted out (assuming we do) of full union. Yes, we'd have to meet EU safety standards, etc, just as we have to meet US (like FCC) rules to export to the US. But we can do that without having to follow the vast array of other EU legislation.

    For example, my window cleaner retired a few years back because legislation prevented him from using ladders about a certain height, and despite trying several systems, couldn't find one ofvthose pumped systems that did an acceptable standard of washing, and more reverently, drying. He closed a business because among residential customers, he lost too many and wouldn't do "half a job". His words.

    Similarly, I wanted new windows (and doors) throughout the house, , a few years ago. After finding a good company with a great product, they could ONLY do the top floor windows with scaffolding, which was going to cost (if memory serves) about £2000k. That's not the windows, it's JUST the additional scaffolding. I delayed the job about three years, until the company came up with a way of fitting the windows entirely from the inside, yet still fulfilling both security and aesthetic considerations. After they did, with some custom-made top floor windows, I went ahead. The scaffolding woukd have had, according to the fitters, under an hour's actual use, and they PREFERRED ladders, but weren't alliwed to use them.

    Neither my window cleaner nor replacement window company ever export anything, yet were adversely affected by UK H&S legislation required directly by EU directive.

    As a country capable of standing on it's own, we can leave, trade with the EU without having to agree to a Norway-style deal, which, perhaps because of their situation, may suit them, but certainly doesn't suit us.

    I can't see why a spiteful tariff war is necessary, or in either the UK or EU interests, but IF they those to play it that way because we, the people, had the temerity to opt out when finally given an actual say in the matter, then <bleep> the lot of them. I'll buy UK cheese, Australian wine, and maybe a Toyota or Lexus instead of BMW or Mercedes. And nobody (except Australia and Japan maybe) win from that.

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    Re: EU Referendum date set ....

    Quote Originally Posted by BobF64 View Post
    The article basically said that Norway has to enact all relevant EU legislation that relates to trade with the bloc without having the ability to reject, modify or influence it directly.
    The first question is whether Norway has to enact EU law in order to be able to trade or that products merely have to conform to it to be eligible for sale. Based on some digging it would appear to be mostly the former (see below), but I'm sure that it isn't the entire picture.


    Norway's economic and trade relations with the EU are mainly governed by the agreement on the European Economic Area (EEA). As member state of the European Economic Area, Norway fully applies the whole acquis communautaire relevant to the four freedoms (free movement of goods, persons, services and capital), along with that pertinent to flanking policies (ie transport, competition, social policy, consumer protection, environment, statistics and company law).

    As a result, the EEA agreement provides for a high degree of economic integration, common competition rules, rules for state aid and government procurement.

    Agriculture and fisheries are not covered by the EEA Agreement. However, Article 19 thereof highlights the commitment of the parties to progressive liberalisation of agricultural trade, which is achieved through the conclusion of separate agreements on that basis.


    acquis communautaire - en.euabc.com/word/12


    The second question is whether in the event of a vote to leave, would the EU try and push us into the this type of EEA agreement? Certainly if it were me sat at the negotiating table and they offered up this pigswill my immediate response would be "call us when you're ready to be serious".


    My third question doesn't relate to this but an odd thought that's been rattling around in my head since all the renegotiation shenanigans. Imagine say if Greece decided to hold a referendum on EU membership and it actually looked as though they might vote to leave. Do you think their government would be allowed to renegotiate "terms and conditions"? Somehow I seriously doubt it, which says much about the fact that the EU needs us for their own benefit.
    If Wisdom is the coordination of "knowledge and experience" and its deliberate use to improve well being then how come "Ignorance is bliss"

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    Re: EU Referendum date set ....

    East Europeans.

    That's all I'll say.

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    Re: EU Referendum date set ....

    ..and if we left, we can claim back our fishing areas for only Uk fishermen.......that Ted Heath gave away.
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    Re: EU Referendum date set ....

    Quote Originally Posted by SeriousSam View Post
    The first question is whether Norway has to enact EU law in order to be able to trade or that products merely have to conform to it to be eligible for sale. Based on some digging it would appear to be mostly the former (see below), but I'm sure that it isn't the entire picture.


    Norway's economic and trade relations with the EU are mainly governed by the agreement on the European Economic Area (EEA). As member state of the European Economic Area, Norway fully applies the whole acquis communautaire relevant to the four freedoms (free movement of goods, persons, services and capital), along with that pertinent to flanking policies (ie transport, competition, social policy, consumer protection, environment, statistics and company law).

    As a result, the EEA agreement provides for a high degree of economic integration, common competition rules, rules for state aid and government procurement.

    Agriculture and fisheries are not covered by the EEA Agreement. However, Article 19 thereof highlights the commitment of the parties to progressive liberalisation of agricultural trade, which is achieved through the conclusion of separate agreements on that basis.


    acquis communautaire - en.euabc.com/word/12


    The second question is whether in the event of a vote to leave, would the EU try and push us into the this type of EEA agreement? Certainly if it were me sat at the negotiating table and they offered up this pigswill my immediate response would be "call us when you're ready to be serious".
    You may very well say that. But what do you think David Cameron, a pro-EU PM who is standing down before the next election and therefore does not need to retain popularity with the electorate might say? "Sorry we couldn't get them to make the correct choice, we'll do it by proxy instead"?

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    Re: EU Referendum date set ....

    Quote Originally Posted by spacein_vader View Post
    You may very well say that. But what do you think David Cameron, a pro-EU PM who is standing down before the next election and therefore does not need to retain popularity with the electorate might say? "Sorry we couldn't get them to make the correct choice, we'll do it by proxy instead"?
    You assume he would (a) survive a no vote and (b) be involved in what is likely to be 2 years of negotiations...
    If Wisdom is the coordination of "knowledge and experience" and its deliberate use to improve well being then how come "Ignorance is bliss"

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    Re: EU Referendum date set ....

    Quote Originally Posted by SeriousSam View Post
    You assume he would (a) survive a no vote and (b) be involved in what is likely to be 2 years of negotiations...
    I do indeed, a referendum loss won't automatically lose him his leadership, and if he does stay he can be in until 2020, a good 3+ years to negotiate. I'd say it's at least a 50-50 chance it'd be him signing any trade agreement made post exit.

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    Re: EU Referendum date set ....

    Over here in Gibraltar there's a lot of fear that a British exit could give Spain the freedom to close the border to Gibraltar again, or at the very least, close their airspace to Gibraltar forcing travel to redirect to Morocco first. There are also questions about how the economy might be affected, although I was reading a financial publication that didn't fear for the economy or finance sectors much. Instead, it's would be the Spanish blockades on travel and the border that prove the worst possibilities.

    Personally, I don't see the Spanish closing the border as before. Last time I heard a count there were over 10K people commuting across the border daily not to mention the business La Linea (first Spanish town across the border) gets from Gibraltar. We do the lion's share of our shopping there every two weeks, as do many others. Then again, Spain's government is ridiculously corrupt and they've proven they don't much care for the small southern towns apart from using them as a political tool, so I supposed it is possible they could be dumb enough to do it. The more real chance, though, is them messing with things like the air traffic.

    It would be nice, being a resident here, to feel a bit more confident in British support for Gibraltar, and know that in the event of Spanish fall out Britain would be supportive, but there have been rumblings over the years, of the British handing Gibraltar back over to the Spanish - not a pleasant prospect. Cameron recently urged Gibraltar to vote to remain in the EU, that would be around 30,000k votes in that direction. But not everyone here is convinced, even with at least some real threat from Spain.

    In recent comments Cameron said, “The short answer…is that I can tell those people what it will be like if we stay, but I cannot be absolutely certain about what would happen if we leave.”
    “It would depend on a complex and difficult negotiation, and I think there would be a lot of uncertainty.”

    Uncertainty and fear. That's basically the whole 'remain in' argument. Can't say I'm much persuaded by cries of fear. Not when there are legitimate arguments about democracy, sovereignty, and responsibility in play, not to mention the indelible record of history showing how much deceit and lies have paved the way for the EU so far.

    The EU is what it is. It's heading where it's heading. There's no such thing a special-British deal or exception. That would run contrary to the whole idea behind the EU. You either buy in to the whole deal or not. Right now my vote, is not.
    Last edited by Galant; 25-02-2016 at 10:48 AM.
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    Re: EU Referendum date set ....

    A very interesting article here on The Spectator on possibly "What Brexit would look like for Britain"

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02...-after-brexit/

    Worth a read regardless of your opinion on Brexit.

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    Re: EU Referendum date set ....

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hand View Post
    A very interesting article here on The Spectator on possibly "What Brexit would look like for Britain"

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02...-after-brexit/

    Worth a read regardless of your opinion on Brexit.
    That was interesting, and a rather surprising article for The Spectator. Their opinion that the stay campaign is playing the "fear of change" card also struck a chord, although I guess both sides will ratchet up the hyperbole in the next three months.
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    Re: EU Referendum date set ....

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    That was interesting, and a rather surprising article for The Spectator. Their opinion that the stay campaign is playing the "fear of change" card also struck a chord, although I guess both sides will ratchet up the hyperbole in the next three months.
    Yes, I was thinking that, but guess what.. here's another by Lord Owen:

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02...-leave-the-eu/

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    Re: EU Referendum date set ....

    Fund Manager Neil Woodford: "Brexit could benefit UK economy":

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...onomics-report

    "Neil Woodford says British EU withdrawal would have no lasting negative economic impact and attacks ‘bogus’ debate"
    Last edited by The Hand; 03-03-2016 at 11:50 AM. Reason: corrected link

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